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Pelagianism

Twisted Hawk

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Aug 22, 2009
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This wednesday, Brother Jed, a campus speaker, is coming to visit us. I thought he was telling a lot of truths, but as I was looking at a false prophets website, I notice Pelagianism is a heresy. If you guys don't know, Pelagianism is the denial of original sin, and saying people can stop sinning on their own. http://www.gotquestions.org/Pelagianism.html. I remember seeing he was fond of being called a modern day pelagius.

So, I'm just curious? Is pelagianism true, or a heresy? I think it's heresy, but I was curious of what the rest of you thought.
 
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Pelagianism is a Catholic belief. For the rest of us, there is sin, period. All have sinned and need salvation. :yes
 
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mdo757 said:
Pelagianism is a Catholic belief. For the rest of us, there is sin, period. All have sinned and need salvation. :yes
You don't know what you are talking about, Pelagianism is a heresy condemned by the Catholic Church long before Luther was ever conceived and continues to be condemned...

The Canons of the Council of Orange (529 AD)

CANON 1. If anyone denies that it is the whole man, that is, both body and soul, that was "changed for the worse" through the offense of Adam's sin, but believes that the freedom of the soul remains unimpaired and that only the body is subject to corruption, he is deceived by the error of Pelagius and contradicts the scripture which says, "The soul that sins shall die" (Ezek. 18:20); and, "Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are the slaves of the one whom you obey?" (Rom. 6:16); and, "For whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved" (2 Pet. 2:19).

CANON 2. If anyone asserts that Adam's sin affected him alone and not his descendants also, or at least if he declares that it is only the death of the body which is the punishment for sin, and not also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race, he does injustice to God and contradicts the Apostle, who says, "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned" (Rom. 5:12).

CANON 3. If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me" (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1).

CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism -- if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.

CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, "For apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, "Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God" (2 Cor. 3:5).

http://www.reformed.org/documents/index ... range.html

The Catholic Church continues to teach that we cannot come to God without God's grace - and we still believe that original sin effects all men...

You are clearly mistaken.
 

seekandlisten

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Oct 29, 2009
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Twisted Hawk said:
This wednesday, Brother Jed, a campus speaker, is coming to visit us. I thought he was telling a lot of truths, but as I was looking at a false prophets website, I notice Pelagianism is a heresy. If you guys don't know, Pelagianism is the denial of original sin, and saying people can stop sinning on their own. http://www.gotquestions.org/Pelagianism.html. I remember seeing he was fond of being called a modern day pelagius.

So, I'm just curious? Is pelagianism true, or a heresy? I think it's heresy, but I was curious of what the rest of you thought.
What is your specific question? From what I read Pelagianism is a theory of Pelagius concerning the original sin and such. It has it's problems and would be considered heretical but I wonder what you object to specifically.
 

seekandlisten

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okay, nevermind. If this is in discussion of 'Brother Jed' aka George Edward Smock I would definitely suggest looking elsewhere for answers. Just my opinion.
 

cyberjosh

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seekandlisten said:
okay, nevermind. If this is in discussion of 'Brother Jed' aka George Edward Smock I would definitely suggest looking elsewhere for answers. Just my opinion.
:eek2 That sounds ominous... You said that almost like I would say the name "John Shelby Spong". Maybe I don't want to know.
 

guibox

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Nov 30, 2004
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Pelagius believed that there was no original sin and that by our choices, we can remain sinless, in essence, we can save ourselves by our choices.

Though Pelagianism was condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D, the Catholic Church eventually adopted their own form of semi-Pelagianism by requiring sacraments and indulgences as a way to salvation. Salvation was given solely through the church and was reduced to doing penance for the sins. Basically, as one sinned by their choices (something that Pelagius believed was the way to salvation), the Church gave forgiveness for these sins that was an ongoing process of salvation by works. During the Middle Ages, people were guaranteed salvation and a place in heaven by participating in the Crusades or buying indulgences.

Some Protestant organizations and people also follow a semi-Pelagian philosophy of sinless perfection.
 

Twisted Hawk

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Aug 22, 2009
Messages
173
seekandlisten said:
okay, nevermind. If this is in discussion of 'Brother Jed' aka George Edward Smock I would definitely suggest looking elsewhere for answers. Just my opinion.
Just curious on how I should view him when he comes.I have a friend that is a fan, but I don't know whether to tell him he is preaching heresy or not. I don't like to say things with factual blunders and other mis informed views.
 

seekandlisten

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Joined
Oct 29, 2009
Messages
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Twisted Hawk said:
seekandlisten said:
okay, nevermind. If this is in discussion of 'Brother Jed' aka George Edward Smock I would definitely suggest looking elsewhere for answers. Just my opinion.
Just curious on how I should view him when he comes.I have a friend that is a fan, but I don't know whether to tell him he is preaching heresy or not. I don't like to say things with factual blunders and other mis informed views.
Judge him by his fruit. Does he convey the message that Jesus left for us of loving our neighbor, of following God with a humble heart? I'll give anyone a listen or read but I judge what they say on my personal convictions so I can't really tell you how to view him.

I personally don't know much about him. I googled him after posting in this thread originally and from what I read he's your typical 'believe what I do or you will burn in hell' kind of guy. His ministry looks more along the line of self glorification than for the glory of God. Again these are my personal opinions, and the only word of advice I can give is take what he says with a grain of salt.


"Large skepticism leads to large understanding. Small skepticism leads to small understanding. No skepticism leads to no understanding."
 

Joe67

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Oct 31, 2008
Messages
654
My understanding of the Pelagius controversy was that Augustine was called upon to do the heavy lifting in regard to the matter of original sin in man.

Francis and/or our other RCC brethren probably have more information on this history since the issue existed more in the western church than the eastern church, as I understand the history. I think it was a late 4th century - early 5th century issue.

I do have a big book with Augustine's writings, but the print is small and my eyesight is now impaired so most of my reading is now in my large print Bible and on the forums.

Joe
 

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