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Predestination and Calvinism

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With regards to Calvinism and it's sights of where "any" person is at, these are facts:

In Calvinism no believer really knows that they are saved, and can't know until they are finished persevering. IF they can't know where even they themselves are at, then they can't possibly know the eternal status of another person.

Secondly, in Calvinism, no one knows who is or is not, may or may not be an "elect." Therefore the Gospel is proclaimed to ALL people.

Good basic starting points for accuracy.
 

Deborah13

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Condemned BECAUSE they did not believe.
That was their choice.
The idea that God predestined anyone to be condemned to hell, as you suggest, and allows him no escape is blasphemy. It maligns the character of God.
That is exactly what it does, it maligns the character of God.
 

Jim Parker

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It's a commonly held fallacy that determinism has predestined people to hell. That is a false notion by freewillers who are ignorant about determinism.
That is the logical conclusion of Calvinists claiming that only some people are predestined to be saved.
There are only two outcomes, heaven and hell.
If one is not predestined to heaven then the only alternative is that he is predestined to hell.
Predespots try to talk their way out of that logical conclusion with their theo-ballble but it is the only inescapable logical conclusion.
 

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Nothing of your post addresses the fact that your inspired, inerrant, sola scriptura specifically says that everything God created was very good. (Gen 1:31 (RSV) And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.)

(EDIT)

"Overcoming"???? Where did you get that? Joseph's brothers did something evil. God used it for their good.

We have to presume that by Gods, yes Gods creation of the power of evil that there is purposeful Divine Intentions behind that matter. Example? See Romans 11:32. God can bind man to disobedience (not a good thing in and of itself) in order to show HIS MERCY. IN this God "uses" that contrast (disobedience, a BAD thing) to show His Mercy (a good thing.) Get it?
 
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Jim Parker

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With regards to Calvinism and it's sights of where "any" person is at, these are facts:
In Calvinism no believer really knows that they are saved, and can't know until they are finished persevering. IF they can't know where even they themselves are at, then they can't possibly know the eternal status of another person.
Secondly, in Calvinism, no one knows who is or is not, may or may not be an "elect." Therefore the Gospel is proclaimed to ALL people.
Good basic starting points for accuracy.
The discussion is not about the eternal condition of any individual.
It is about the Calvinist heresy that God predestine only a portion of people for salvation and the rest go to hell.
If you want to talk about the eternal destiny of individuals you could start another thread.
 

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That is the logical conclusion of Calvinists claiming that only some people are predestined to be saved.

This has already been addressed. Scriptures themselves show that it is Gods Direct Intentions to save particular individuals, even when they are not willing. Saul in the road to Damascus is a great example. Saul willed exactly NONE of that to happen. God did.

There are only two outcomes, heaven and hell.
If one is not predestined to heaven then the only alternative is that he is predestined to hell.
Predespots try to talk their way out of that logical conclusion with their theo-ballble but it is the only inescapable logical conclusion.

Few credible Christian sects rule out the possibility of Gods Overwhelming Grace as a potential for all people. (EDIT)
 
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The discussion is not about the eternal condition of any individual.
It is about the Calvinist heresy that God predestine only a portion of people for salvation and the rest go to hell.

Calvin didn't have to make that case. Paul made that case in Romans 9 and Romans 11. Calvin didn't pull his positions out of a magical black top hat.
If you want to talk about the eternal destiny of individuals you could start another thread.

(EDIT)

The truth is Calvin didn't know and couldn't possibly know.
 
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Jim Parker

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In post 501 you said....and I quote..."Yeah. Calvin's Jesus. Not the one in scripture."
Clearly indicating Calvin was following a false Christ.
Then in post 510 you called it blasphemy.
Might I suggest you go take your dog for a walk...chill down a bit?
(EDIT)
Calvin's Jesus did not die for the sins of the world; He died for the sins of SOME OF the world. That's not the Jesus of scripture or history any more than the JWs' Jesus or the Mormons' Jesus is the Jesus of scripture and history.
Calvin's god loves only part of his creation in direct contradiction to the specific word of scripture so that teaching is blasphemy.
 
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Deborah13

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Then perhaps you can explain the meaning of this verse....
Romans 9:14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Absolutely not! 15For He says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
If you continue reading and look up each example you will see what it means.
Paul is presenting an argument to the Jews to prove that God has in His mercy, grace, and justice chosen to include the Gentiles in His people and not only Israel/Jews. God has the right to give mercy and compassion to whomever He chooses to. He also has the right to harden anyone He chooses to. And by citing Hosea, proves to them that this was God's plan from long in the past, not something new.
 

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(EDIT)
Calvin's Jesus did not die for the sins of the world; He died for the sins of SOME OF the world. That's not the Jesus of scripture or history any more than the JWs' Jesus or the Mormons' Jesus is the Jesus of scripture and history.
Calvin's god loves only part of his creation in direct contradiction to the specific word of scripture so that teaching is blasphemy.

Col 3:12 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

1 Thes 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

You have a lot of bible to change to show that the teaching is blasphemy
 
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Cygnus

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What is "it?" Jesus said the devil was a liar from the beginning. John 8:44. I see no Holy angel gone bad in that statement whatsoever.


Where in the world did you come up with that one?



I see exactly zero evidence of "Lucifer walked in the Garden in an unfallen state" in Ezekiel 28. Please point out to me where it says that.

The scripture was included in the post. All you had to do was read the scripture and surrounding scripture. Secondly, I didn't come up with it...it's been around for a pretty long time. Is this the first you've been shown this?
 

Deborah13

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Your comments still disturb me. You do understand there is a difference between God knowing what will happen and predestination?
From reading your post you seem somewhat confused about the issue. Your disturbing comments clearly indicate that.
I do, but I'm not sure you do. Are you advocating for 'God predestined Everything that happens?
Are you saying that God predestines all those who believe, to believe, but the rest are condemned?
 

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This thread got way out of hand with personal insults and rude replies in violation of the ToS as well as too much personal opinion without providing support from Scripture per the Forum Guidelines. Many posts have been edited or deleted. We are Christians, right???

If you disagree kindly express your disagreement and provide the Scripture reference that supports your view. And, if you're really kind, you'll respectfully explain why it supports your view so others may learn from you. Asking questions to direct your opponent to dig doesn't cut it either. It is demeaning and comes across as arrogant.

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;" 1 Peter 3:15 NKJV (other translations - with gentleness and respect)


I hope I've explained this well enough so everyone understands what is needed.
 

OzSpen

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Col 3:12 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,

1 Thes 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

You have a lot of bible to change to show that the teaching is blasphemy

Cygnus,

I believe 100% in the biblical doctrine of election and the verses you have given are excellent ones to affirm election of believers: Col 3:12 (ESV); 1 Thess 1:4 (ESV), and 2 Pet 1:10 (ESV).

However citing the fact of election does not tell the nature of election and how it takes place. Here are a few verses that tell the HOW:

  • 1 Peter 1:1-2 (ESV) confirms the basis of election (how a person is chosen by God): 'Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you'. So, election, from God's point of view, is based on his foreknowledge, i.e. knowing ahead of time.
  • We know from Psalm 139:1-6 (ESV) that the Lord is 'acquainted with all my ways'. God knows the very inner workings of our hearts.
  • God knows the identity of the elect, Eph 1:4 (ESV) says the elect were chosen 'in him before the foundation of the world'. God knows who the non-elect are . He knew that Judas would betray Jesus (Acts 1:20 ESV) and would be lost eternally (John 17:12 ESV).
Oz
 

ivdavid

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God knows who the non-elect are .
I don't think anyone has an issue with God knowing/foreknowing who the non-elect are. If He Himself chose the elect, He'd quite obviously know who the non-elect are. The issue is over whether God predetermines/predestines the non-elect to condemnation by His determinate counsel even before the foundation of the world - or not.

Scripture to support the predetermined/predestined condemning of the non-elect has been limited to just Rom 9:17-23 - if there are more passages elsewhere, please cite them. But if this is the only passage on which double predestination has been based on, then there should be reconsideration to its interpretation.

The entire passage deals with all being utterly dependent on God's mercy alone. Now, the very concept of mercy comes up only after one is consigned to condemnation, not before - for how can one be shown mercy if he has done nothing guilt-worthy to be condemned in the first place. And once a person finds himself in that state of condemnation dependent on just God's mercy, he is no longer entitled to anything - God is sovereign and is not obligated to show mercy to this person. If God so does show mercy, this person shall have eternal life in accordance with God's will - if God does not show mercy, this person shall face God's just wrath for his own guilt-worthy transgressions.

It is in this sense that it is written, from the same lump one is made unto honour and the other unto dishonour. If you want to read double predestination into this, you'd read it as "from the same lump of mass before one's birth" - but if you don't want to read double predestination into this, you'd read it as "from the same lump of guilty condemned people after their own transgressions".

Moses and Pharaoh are both transgressors before God, both deserving condemnation in accordance with God's Law. It is at this point that God sovereignly chooses to have mercy on Moses and not on Pharaoh - resulting in Moses being sanctified to walk as per God's will and Pharaoh drifting further apart, for God's mercy begins His good work in His vessels of mercy unto honour. But there is God's longsuffering to withhold His just wrath towards Pharaoh until his sins are finished (James 1:15) and he is completed for destruction.

The expected objection is why God 'still/furthermore/yet' finds fault - not over why God found fault in the first place. Why does God find fault with people's disobedience when He has sovereignly willed them to be vessels of wrath (after first their transgressions amounting to their condemnation and God not willing to show mercy upon these). For If God had willed them to be vessels of mercy, then wouldn't they have been spared God's just wrath - so isn't it unfair to hold them responsible for God's decision. Which is what Paul defends by saying God is entitled to make that sovereign choice of whom to have mercy upon, given that all are the same lump of equally undeserving transgressors.

And note, it is the vessels of mercy that are "afore prepared unto glory". It would be our assumption to extend the same to the vessels of wrath when Scriptures make no such mentioning.

All this is to show that the doctrine of single predestination would conform to Scriptures while double predestination is a result of human assumptions. I'd think people should be happy to reject double predestination at the first instance of a biblical reconciliation without it, given its implications of a God who weeps for the perishing of the very people He intentionally created to perish.
 

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I don't think anyone has an issue with God knowing/foreknowing who the non-elect are. If He Himself chose the elect, He'd quite obviously know who the non-elect are. The issue is over whether God predetermines/predestines the non-elect to condemnation by His determinate counsel even before the foundation of the world - or not.

Scripture to support the predetermined/predestined condemning of the non-elect has been limited to just Rom 9:17-23 - if there are more passages elsewhere, please cite them. But if this is the only passage on which double predestination has been based on, then there should be reconsideration to its interpretation.

The entire passage deals with all being utterly dependent on God's mercy alone. Now, the very concept of mercy comes up only after one is consigned to condemnation, not before - for how can one be shown mercy if he has done nothing guilt-worthy to be condemned in the first place. And once a person finds himself in that state of condemnation dependent on just God's mercy, he is no longer entitled to anything - God is sovereign and is not obligated to show mercy to this person. If God so does show mercy, this person shall have eternal life in accordance with God's will - if God does not show mercy, this person shall face God's just wrath for his own guilt-worthy transgressions.

It is in this sense that it is written, from the same lump one is made unto honour and the other unto dishonour. If you want to read double predestination into this, you'd read it as "from the same lump of mass before one's birth" - but if you don't want to read double predestination into this, you'd read it as "from the same lump of guilty condemned people after their own transgressions".

Moses and Pharaoh are both transgressors before God, both deserving condemnation in accordance with God's Law. It is at this point that God sovereignly chooses to have mercy on Moses and not on Pharaoh - resulting in Moses being sanctified to walk as per God's will and Pharaoh drifting further apart, for God's mercy begins His good work in His vessels of mercy unto honour. But there is God's longsuffering to withhold His just wrath towards Pharaoh until his sins are finished (James 1:15) and he is completed for destruction.

The expected objection is why God 'still/furthermore/yet' finds fault - not over why God found fault in the first place. Why does God find fault with people's disobedience when He has sovereignly willed them to be vessels of wrath (after first their transgressions amounting to their condemnation and God not willing to show mercy upon these). For If God had willed them to be vessels of mercy, then wouldn't they have been spared God's just wrath - so isn't it unfair to hold them responsible for God's decision. Which is what Paul defends by saying God is entitled to make that sovereign choice of whom to have mercy upon, given that all are the same lump of equally undeserving transgressors.

And note, it is the vessels of mercy that are "afore prepared unto glory". It would be our assumption to extend the same to the vessels of wrath when Scriptures make no such mentioning.

All this is to show that the doctrine of single predestination would conform to Scriptures while double predestination is a result of human assumptions. I'd think people should be happy to reject double predestination at the first instance of a biblical reconciliation without it, given its implications of a God who weeps for the perishing of the very people He intentionally created to perish.

I'd like to agree with you ivdavid. I have difficulty understanding how anyone could believe Calvin's theories which go against the God I know and love.

Could I add something to the above and get your thoughts?

I don't have a "Pharaoh" problem. Romans 9:15-18.
It is answered in Romans 9:22-23

I believe that God has a great plan that we are not privy to. This plan WILL end exactly as God intends.
We are free to decide, at any given moment, who we want to serve - God or satan. We are free to decide what action we will take.

But, as Romans 9:20 says (and also in Job) who are we to ask of God's will? If God found it necessary to actually harden Pharaoh's heart to accomplish His will, what would be wrong with that? Think also of Judas. Think also of Lazarus dying and Jesus taking His time to get to him. Although God will not make HABIT of disturbing nature and natural events, can He not make an exemption? This is also true of miracles. They're exeptions and not the norm.

It's useless for a Calvinist to bring up Pharaoh. If the bible mentions it, it means it's out of the ordinary.
God will do what God will do. He is sovereign, after all.

This does NOT mean we have no free will.
This does NOT mean God created evil.
For God to send people to hell purposefully would make HIM evil!

Wondering
 

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I do, but I'm not sure you do. Are you advocating for 'God predestined Everything that happens?
Are you saying that God predestines all those who believe, to believe, but the rest are condemned?
Yes Deborah, this is what Cygnus believes.
But he'll answer for himself.

I'd like to repost from your no. 511 because I think it's really important:

Deborah13 says:
If God predestined Adam to sin, then yes He caused it. No one else could predestine Adam to sin, except God.
If God predestined Everything, then He predestined those babies to be aborted. If He didn't, then God did not predestine Everything.
I'm sorry if that offends you, the idea that God would do that offends me too. But we cannot have it both ways.


If God is doing EVERYTHING,
THEN
He's responsible for EVERYTHING.
Even ALL EVIL.

Horrifying thought, isn't it?

Wondering
 

ivdavid

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If God found it necessary to actually harden Pharaoh's heart to accomplish His will, what would be wrong with that?...
God will do what God will do. He is sovereign, after all.
You'll have to qualify that statement further - I know you didn't mean it this way, but as a technicality, it would end up being wrong if God's will to harden Pharaoh's heart was against Pharaoh's will to actually do God's will.
So God's sovereignty cannot subdue good, because that would be God denying His own will - God's sovereignty is rather seen in His showing mercy to whom He will, which entails God softening their stony hearts in the spirit; and in His not showing mercy to whom He will, which entails their continuing to harden their stony hearts further in sinful flesh.

If God is doing EVERYTHING,...
It is never meant that way usually. Certain qualifying words are to be assumed - it actually amounts to "Everything Good is done by God alone ; and God is Never the author of sin."

If applied to God's foreordained will, "Nothing that ever occurs is so without being permitted by God's counsel(will2), though they may not always be according to God's desires(will1)". Eg: God counsels the death of the unjustified though He does not desire it.

[The word 'will' might get confusing at times since the same English word 'will' is at times used to mean 2 different Greek words - eg: the 'will2' in James 1:18, Acts 13:36 is different from the 'will1' used in Matt 8:3, Rom 12:2. Both words occur together in Eph 1:11, Luke 22:42, and Matt 1:19.]

This does NOT mean we have no free will.
In the context of free 'will', we almost always refer to our own counsel(will2) and not desires(will1) - since whatever is counselled to be the most apt option from among many desires, is chosen and acted upon. And this counsel is either by the flesh or by the spirit. What needs to be discussed is - whether any choice/action can be pleasing to God when counselled by the flesh, and if not - is one in the flesh really having a 'free' will?

But yes, that was just semantics. As you meant it, we are given to choose and we do constantly exercise that act of choosing - we aren't deprived of the very act itself. But whether the limitations to it(by sin in the flesh) or the influences over it(by God's Spirit in your spirit), permit it to be termed completely free, is a matter of discussion.
 

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Yes Deborah, this is what Cygnus believes.
But he'll answer for himself.

I'd like to repost from your no. 511 because I think it's really important:

Deborah13 says:
If God predestined Adam to sin, then yes He caused it. No one else could predestine Adam to sin, except God.
If God predestined Everything, then He predestined those babies to be aborted. If He didn't, then God did not predestine Everything.
I'm sorry if that offends you, the idea that God would do that offends me too. But we cannot have it both ways.


If God is doing EVERYTHING,
THEN
He's responsible for EVERYTHING.
Even ALL EVIL.

Horrifying thought, isn't it?

Wondering

Wondering,

Yes, it is a horrifying thought. However, I see a different picture in Scripture:

We know these details from Scripture:
  • Jesus said, 'Many are called, but few are chosen' (Matt 22:14 ESV).
  • Acts 13:48 (ESV) confirms that 'as many as were appointed to eternal life believed'. So, from God's point of view, only the elect will believe.
  • However, the Lord is 'not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance' (2 Pet 3:9 NIV). We obtain a similar message from 1 Tim 2:4 (NIV) that God our Saviour 'wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth'. So, God's desire is not for a certain limited number to be saved but his desire is for 'all people to be saved'.
  • Therefore, 'God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son' (John 3:16 NIV).
  • Why was this? That Jesus would be 'the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world' (1 John 2:2 ESV). Jesus' death appeased the wrath of God (propitiation) for all people, but all people are not saved. How come?
  • So God has provided salvation for all, but how do people receive it? 'Now he commands all people everywhere to repent' (Acts 17:30 ESV) and believe (Acts 16:31 (ESV).
It would be outrageous for God to command all people to be saved and not make salvation available for all people.

We know that God is not the creator of evil (sending the damned to hell) because God is the good God and not the evil God:
  • Psalm 25:8 (ESV), 'Good and upright is the LORD; therefore he instructs sinners in the way'.
  • Psalm 136:1 (ESV), 'Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good'.
  • Psalm 100:5 (ESV), 'For the Lord is good; his steadfast love endures for ever, and his faithfulness to all generations'.
  • Mark 10:18 (NIV), '"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone"'.
Richard Bargas (2006) has written an article that does not support double predestination, 'Double trouble: Is double predestination biblical?'

Oz
 
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