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Preterism and Parousia

Free Indeed

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Hello. I want to begin by saying that I'm NOT here simply to troll or antagonize preterists. I'm pursuing truth and am completely open to the possibility that preterism is true. In order to find out if it's true or not I need to challenge it and see if it can stand up to the arguments against it. So please don't be angry at me posting things contrary to preterism, I'm just curious as to how preterists respond to arguments against their position. I hope that's okay.
With that being said, I want to make an argument against the preterist interpretation of of the Greek word "parousia", usually translated as "coming" in the New Testament. The vast majority of the the times this word is used refer to Christ coming back (either in the future or at 70 AD, obviously depending upon your eschatology). There are a few references that don't apply to Christ.
"Parousia" is typically defined in various lexicons as "presence", "coming", "arrival", "advent", with some pointing out that it refers to "presence after absence". But upon what basis do preterists claim that this term is reasonably be applied to Christ spiritually coming on the clouds in AD 70? How can Christ spiritually coming in clouds reasonably be interpreted as his presence dwelling with people?
There seems to be several verses in the New Testament that define "parousia" as to physically arrive and dwell with people.
1 Corinthians 16:17, “I am glad about the coming of Stephanas, Fortunatus, and Achaicus, for what was lacking on your part they supplied.”
2 Corinthians 6:6-7, “Nevertheless God, who comforts the downcast, comforted us by the coming of Titus, 7 and not only by his coming, but also by the consolation with which he was comforted in you, when he told us of your earnest desire, your mourning, your zeal for me, so that I rejoiced even more.”
Paul is not glad and comforted by people being with him in spirit, but by people physically arriving and dwelling with him in their bodily presence.
2 Corinthians 10:10, “’For his letters,’ they say, ‘are weighty and powerful, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.”
Here Paul is clearly using "parousia" to refer to his "bodily presence", so shouldn't we expect Jesus to be using the word in the same way?
Philippians 1:25-26, “And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, 26 that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again.”
Philippians 2:12, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;”
These two verses in Philippians likewise clearly use "parousia" to refer to a physical arrival and presence.
In contrast to this, when Paul wanted to talk about being with people spiritually he used to term "pareimi pneuma", "present in spirit", such as in 1 Corinthians 5:3. So if, in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus was referring to being present in spirit in the clouds why didn't he use that term? Why did he instead use a term that seems to refer to physical presence?
Does anything in the Bible support the preterist understanding of parousia? Perhaps something in the Greek Old Testament uses it in a spiritual way? I don't know, but I'd love to know what preterists think, so if anyone would let me know how they understand this term I'd greatly appreciate it. Thank you.
 

reba

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I do not know a preterst that does not believe in the return of Christ .

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
What does the above passage say about being on earth?

We know from history something happened around 70 AD .. something big big enough to stop the daily sacrifices in the temple...

AS far as your talking/asking about details I have never studied preterism ... i just know in my mind the Church offers way to many 'rapture accounts' to grab one and claim it to be TRUTH..
 

jasonc

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I do not know a preterst that does not believe in the return of Christ .

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
What does the above passage say about being on earth?

We know from history something happened around 70 AD .. something big big enough to stop the daily sacrifices in the temple...

AS far as your talking/asking about details I have never studied preterism ... i just know in my mind the Church offers way to many 'rapture accounts' to grab one and claim it to be TRUTH..
Whispers ask Hitch
 

ezrider

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These two verses in Philippians likewise clearly use "parousia" to refer to a physical arrival and presence.
In contrast to this, when Paul wanted to talk about being with people spiritually he used to term "pareimi pneuma", "present in spirit", such as in 1 Corinthians 5:3. So if, in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus was referring to being present in spirit in the clouds why didn't he use that term? Why did he instead use a term that seems to refer to physical presence?
Does anything in the Bible support the preterist understanding of parousia? Perhaps something in the Greek Old Testament uses it in a spiritual way? I don't know, but I'd love to know what preterists think, so if anyone would let me know how they understand this term I'd greatly appreciate it. Thank you.

Why do you look for his coming in the clouds when he said I stand at the door and knock?
 

Free Indeed

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I do not know a preterst that does not believe in the return of Christ .

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
What does the above passage say about being on earth?

We know from history something happened around 70 AD .. something big big enough to stop the daily sacrifices in the temple...

AS far as your talking/asking about details I have never studied preterism ... i just know in my mind the Church offers way to many 'rapture accounts' to grab one and claim it to be TRUTH..
Hello. Thank you for responding to my question. Since you're an administrator and you didn't delete my post, am I correct to assume that means it's okay (or at least tolerated) for me to ask questions about preterism that are meant to challenge that position? I'm honestly not trying to start trouble, I have genuine curiosities about this position and figured the best way to get answers would be to interact with people who hold that position.
That being said, I think you misunderstood my question. I'm aware of the differences between full and partial preterism and that this forum only discusses partial preterism. So I didn't mean to imply that preterists entirely deny the second coming of Christ. I'll rephrase my question. Here it goes: Jesus used the term "parousia" four times in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew's Gospel, chapter 24, verses 3, 27, 37, 39. All preterists understand these references to Jesus spiritually returning in the clouds in AD 70 in judgment on Jerusalem, much in the same way Yahweh rode on the clouds in Isaiah 19:1. Correct?
Given what I argued in my OP about the meaning of the word "parousia", upon what basis can this word be interpreted as having such a meaning? Is a spiritual arrival and presence within the semantic range of potential meanings of that word? Is it perhaps unequivocally used in that way in the Septuagint? What's the basis for interpreting that word in that way in Matthew 24? That's my question. Thanks.
 

reba

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No one here is Deedee Warren .. :)
I can not speak for what preterest believe...
I got labeled a preterest,,, simply because i believe the Olivet Discourse IMO describes Jerusalem circa 70 AD..
Therefor i can not answer your question..
Most posters here are dispensationalist . I was raised in it..
 
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..I'm pursuing truth and am completely open to the possibility that preterism is true..
Never heard of it so I looked it up on WIKI which says-
"Preterism is a Christian eschatological view that interprets some (partial preterism) or all (full preterism) prophecies of the Bible as events which have already happened"

So yes, I'd agree with it that some prophecies have already happened, but I think there are still many that have still to be fulfilled.
Also, some prophecies might be the "re-usable" type, applying to events past, present AND future.
For example it's possible that some are being fulfilled in front of our eyes at this very instant, for example this one could refer to the wave of anti-Christian moral degeneracy that's going on all around us-
"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour" (1 John 2:18 )
 
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As regards the word 'Parousia' I had to look that one up too, and got-
Wiki- "The word "parousia" is mainly used in Christian theology to refer to the second coming of Christ."
That seems straightforward enough to me, no mystery about it is there?
 

JLB

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I do not know a preterst that does not believe in the return of Christ .

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
What does the above passage say about being on earth?

We know from history something happened around 70 AD .. something big big enough to stop the daily sacrifices in the temple...

AS far as your talking/asking about details I have never studied preterism ... i just know in my mind the Church offers way to many 'rapture accounts' to grab one and claim it to be TRUTH..
Yes.

The Rapture, Resurrection and destruction of the lawless one, all occur at His coming.

Way to many rapture teachings that don’t reconcile these three events as occurring at His coming.



JLB
 

JohnDB

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As regards the word 'Parousia' I had to look that one up too, and got-
Wiki- "The word "parousia" is mainly used in Christian theology to refer to the second coming of Christ."
That seems straightforward enough to me, no mystery about it is there?
It's Greek...not English.
And where my English spelling is only readable because of spell check my Greek spelling is worse.
 

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