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Preterism and Parousia

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Hello. I want to begin by saying that I'm NOT here simply to troll or antagonize preterists. I'm pursuing truth and am completely open to the possibility that preterism is true. In order to find out if it's true or not I need to challenge it and see if it can stand up to the arguments against it. So please don't be angry at me posting things contrary to preterism, I'm just curious as to how preterists respond to arguments against their position. I hope that's okay.
With that being said, I want to make an argument against the preterist interpretation of of the Greek word "parousia", usually translated as "coming" in the New Testament. The vast majority of the the times this word is used refer to Christ coming back (either in the future or at 70 AD, obviously depending upon your eschatology). There are a few references that don't apply to Christ.
"Parousia" is typically defined in various lexicons as "presence", "coming", "arrival", "advent", with some pointing out that it refers to "presence after absence". But upon what basis do preterists claim that this term is reasonably be applied to Christ spiritually coming on the clouds in AD 70? How can Christ spiritually coming in clouds reasonably be interpreted as his presence dwelling with people?
There seems to be several verses in the New Testament that define "parousia" as to physically arrive and dwell with people.
1 Corinthians 16:17, “I am glad about the coming of Stephanas, Fortunatus, and Achaicus, for what was lacking on your part they supplied.”
2 Corinthians 6:6-7, “Nevertheless God, who comforts the downcast, comforted us by the coming of Titus, 7 and not only by his coming, but also by the consolation with which he was comforted in you, when he told us of your earnest desire, your mourning, your zeal for me, so that I rejoiced even more.”
Paul is not glad and comforted by people being with him in spirit, but by people physically arriving and dwelling with him in their bodily presence.
2 Corinthians 10:10, “’For his letters,’ they say, ‘are weighty and powerful, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.”
Here Paul is clearly using "parousia" to refer to his "bodily presence", so shouldn't we expect Jesus to be using the word in the same way?
Philippians 1:25-26, “And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, 26 that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again.”
Philippians 2:12, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;”
These two verses in Philippians likewise clearly use "parousia" to refer to a physical arrival and presence.
In contrast to this, when Paul wanted to talk about being with people spiritually he used to term "pareimi pneuma", "present in spirit", such as in 1 Corinthians 5:3. So if, in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus was referring to being present in spirit in the clouds why didn't he use that term? Why did he instead use a term that seems to refer to physical presence?
Does anything in the Bible support the preterist understanding of parousia? Perhaps something in the Greek Old Testament uses it in a spiritual way? I don't know, but I'd love to know what preterists think, so if anyone would let me know how they understand this term I'd greatly appreciate it. Thank you.
 
I do not know a preterst that does not believe in the return of Christ .

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
What does the above passage say about being on earth?

We know from history something happened around 70 AD .. something big big enough to stop the daily sacrifices in the temple...

AS far as your talking/asking about details I have never studied preterism ... i just know in my mind the Church offers way to many 'rapture accounts' to grab one and claim it to be TRUTH..
 
I do not know a preterst that does not believe in the return of Christ .

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
What does the above passage say about being on earth?

We know from history something happened around 70 AD .. something big big enough to stop the daily sacrifices in the temple...

AS far as your talking/asking about details I have never studied preterism ... i just know in my mind the Church offers way to many 'rapture accounts' to grab one and claim it to be TRUTH..
Whispers ask Hitch
 
These two verses in Philippians likewise clearly use "parousia" to refer to a physical arrival and presence.
In contrast to this, when Paul wanted to talk about being with people spiritually he used to term "pareimi pneuma", "present in spirit", such as in 1 Corinthians 5:3. So if, in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus was referring to being present in spirit in the clouds why didn't he use that term? Why did he instead use a term that seems to refer to physical presence?
Does anything in the Bible support the preterist understanding of parousia? Perhaps something in the Greek Old Testament uses it in a spiritual way? I don't know, but I'd love to know what preterists think, so if anyone would let me know how they understand this term I'd greatly appreciate it. Thank you.


Why do you look for his coming in the clouds when he said I stand at the door and knock?
 
I do not know a preterst that does not believe in the return of Christ .

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
What does the above passage say about being on earth?

We know from history something happened around 70 AD .. something big big enough to stop the daily sacrifices in the temple...

AS far as your talking/asking about details I have never studied preterism ... i just know in my mind the Church offers way to many 'rapture accounts' to grab one and claim it to be TRUTH..
Hello. Thank you for responding to my question. Since you're an administrator and you didn't delete my post, am I correct to assume that means it's okay (or at least tolerated) for me to ask questions about preterism that are meant to challenge that position? I'm honestly not trying to start trouble, I have genuine curiosities about this position and figured the best way to get answers would be to interact with people who hold that position.
That being said, I think you misunderstood my question. I'm aware of the differences between full and partial preterism and that this forum only discusses partial preterism. So I didn't mean to imply that preterists entirely deny the second coming of Christ. I'll rephrase my question. Here it goes: Jesus used the term "parousia" four times in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew's Gospel, chapter 24, verses 3, 27, 37, 39. All preterists understand these references to Jesus spiritually returning in the clouds in AD 70 in judgment on Jerusalem, much in the same way Yahweh rode on the clouds in Isaiah 19:1. Correct?
Given what I argued in my OP about the meaning of the word "parousia", upon what basis can this word be interpreted as having such a meaning? Is a spiritual arrival and presence within the semantic range of potential meanings of that word? Is it perhaps unequivocally used in that way in the Septuagint? What's the basis for interpreting that word in that way in Matthew 24? That's my question. Thanks.
 
No one here is Deedee Warren .. :)
I can not speak for what preterest believe...
I got labeled a preterest,,, simply because i believe the Olivet Discourse IMO describes Jerusalem circa 70 AD..
Therefor i can not answer your question..
Most posters here are dispensationalist . I was raised in it..
 
..I'm pursuing truth and am completely open to the possibility that preterism is true..
Never heard of it so I looked it up on WIKI which says-
"Preterism is a Christian eschatological view that interprets some (partial preterism) or all (full preterism) prophecies of the Bible as events which have already happened"

So yes, I'd agree with it that some prophecies have already happened, but I think there are still many that have still to be fulfilled.
Also, some prophecies might be the "re-usable" type, applying to events past, present AND future.
For example it's possible that some are being fulfilled in front of our eyes at this very instant, for example this one could refer to the wave of anti-Christian moral degeneracy that's going on all around us-
"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour" (1 John 2:18 )
 
As regards the word 'Parousia' I had to look that one up too, and got-
Wiki- "The word "parousia" is mainly used in Christian theology to refer to the second coming of Christ."
That seems straightforward enough to me, no mystery about it is there?
 
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I do not know a preterst that does not believe in the return of Christ .

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
What does the above passage say about being on earth?

We know from history something happened around 70 AD .. something big big enough to stop the daily sacrifices in the temple...

AS far as your talking/asking about details I have never studied preterism ... i just know in my mind the Church offers way to many 'rapture accounts' to grab one and claim it to be TRUTH..

Yes.

The Rapture, Resurrection and destruction of the lawless one, all occur at His coming.

Way to many rapture teachings that don’t reconcile these three events as occurring at His coming.



JLB
 
As regards the word 'Parousia' I had to look that one up too, and got-
Wiki- "The word "parousia" is mainly used in Christian theology to refer to the second coming of Christ."
That seems straightforward enough to me, no mystery about it is there?
It's Greek...not English.
And where my English spelling is only readable because of spell check my Greek spelling is worse.
 
I do not know a preterst that does not believe in the return of Christ .

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
What does the above passage say about being on earth?

We know from history something happened around 70 AD .. something big big enough to stop the daily sacrifices in the temple...

AS far as your talking/asking about details I have never studied preterism ... i just know in my mind the Church offers way to many 'rapture accounts' to grab one and claim it to be TRUTH..
:) seems there's a label, group for everything. Yes you are so right about many caught up (Rapture) beliefs. Most will tell you why they believe it and not try to preach it at you as if their personal belief is the only truth. Now me He gave me this moment and I can not find in the word where I am promised tomorrow. I take Jesus as His word gone back to the Father to make us a home will come again to get us. I read Pauls 1st letter.. and I am comforted with those words. So I leave every moment as if this is when He comes. Always watching always ready always thinking of Him and my life how i am living for Him blah blah blah. Some never have to be watching they know/believe Hes not coming any time soon.

I never ask tell anyone to think like believe as I do. NO! You search you pray you find this out for your self. JESUS is real.. we KNOW His voice.
 
I read Pauls 1st letter.. and I am comforted with those words.


Amen.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18


We also see that the resurrection and rapture occur at Hs coming.


  • that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep





JLB
 
Amen.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18


We also see that the resurrection and rapture occur at Hs coming.


  • that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep





JLB
We must not use the same terminology with different understandings. When futurists say "resurrection," they do not mean it in the same way many preterists do. The same is true of the Second Coming and the Judgment. First of all, resurrection is NOT the hope of the Church. It was the hope of Israel. That hope was the reason for Paul's imprisonment and attacks from the Jews of his day.

The reasons many futurists want to tear their clothes and scream "blaspheme" is because they try to impose THEIR understanding of the nature of the Parousia, the Resurrection, and the Judgment on the preterist paradigm and then cry foul and scream "heresy" when things don't fit. Of course they don't fit. Their understandings are not our understandings. If the nature of the Second Coming, the Resurrection, and the Judgment were what futurists claim (and they are not), the preterist would be the biggest fool of all to believe that they had already happened. When preterists are allowed to blend their understanding of these things with the clear timing, their is harmony. Let futurists disagree if they must, but they should refrain from misjudging what we believe.

We do not believe that Christ was to come "bodily" and "visibly" to all. This is a misunderstanding of Acts 1 and Revelation 1:7. The resurrection was NOT physical bodies popping up out the ground. And the judgment was not some "end of time" event during which everyone who has ever lived was simultaneously judged.

Jesus came in much the same way as Yahweh had come in judgment in the OT. With that coming, many METAPHORICAL "events" occurred (e.g., stars falling, sun not giving its light, earth moving out of her place, heavens rolled up like a scroll, God's sword bathed in blood). This is the same type of symbolic, apocalyptic, judgment language found in the Olivet Discourse events (vss. 29-32). They are METAPHORICAL and were never to actually happen in a physical way. This is clearly evident if one is willing to take Jesus' at His word when He said, "THIS generation will by no means pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place. To whom did they take place? To those very disciples standing right there with Jesus. In Matthew 24:1-34, the personal pronoun "ye" occurs twenty times. WE are NOT the YE. THEY were to hear of wars and rumors of wars; THEY were to be hated and killed; THEY were to see the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet (i.e., Jerusalem surrounded by armies--Luke 21); THEY were to hear of false Christs but THEY were not to go out to them; THEY were to recognize the signs of His coming as surely as THEY recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the budding of the trees. These are not to happen to us. They happened in THAT generation.

This is clearly presented by the writer of Hebrews when He wrote: "In a VERY, VERY little while He who IS COMING, WILL COME and will NOT DELAY" (Heb. 10:37). It doesn't get any clearer than that. The context involved those of that day. THEY were instructed to not neglect the assembling of THEMSELVES together. Why? Because THE DAY was to approach in their time. James wrote: "The COMING of the Lord is AT HAND" (5:8). Peter wrote: "The end of all things is AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7). Jesus told Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin: "YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and COMING on the clouds of heaven" (Mat. 26:64).

Too many in the Church look for that which they already have.
 
Hello. I want to begin by saying that I'm NOT here simply to troll or antagonize preterists. I'm pursuing truth and am completely open to the possibility that preterism is true. In order to find out if it's true or not I need to challenge it and see if it can stand up to the arguments against it. So please don't be angry at me posting things contrary to preterism, I'm just curious as to how preterists respond to arguments against their position. I hope that's okay.
With that being said, I want to make an argument against the preterist interpretation of of the Greek word "parousia", usually translated as "coming" in the New Testament. The vast majority of the the times this word is used refer to Christ coming back (either in the future or at 70 AD, obviously depending upon your eschatology). There are a few references that don't apply to Christ.
"Parousia" is typically defined in various lexicons as "presence", "coming", "arrival", "advent", with some pointing out that it refers to "presence after absence". But upon what basis do preterists claim that this term is reasonably be applied to Christ spiritually coming on the clouds in AD 70? How can Christ spiritually coming in clouds reasonably be interpreted as his presence dwelling with people?
There seems to be several verses in the New Testament that define "parousia" as to physically arrive and dwell with people.
1 Corinthians 16:17, “I am glad about the coming of Stephanas, Fortunatus, and Achaicus, for what was lacking on your part they supplied.”
2 Corinthians 6:6-7, “Nevertheless God, who comforts the downcast, comforted us by the coming of Titus, 7 and not only by his coming, but also by the consolation with which he was comforted in you, when he told us of your earnest desire, your mourning, your zeal for me, so that I rejoiced even more.”
Paul is not glad and comforted by people being with him in spirit, but by people physically arriving and dwelling with him in their bodily presence.
2 Corinthians 10:10, “’For his letters,’ they say, ‘are weighty and powerful, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.”
Here Paul is clearly using "parousia" to refer to his "bodily presence", so shouldn't we expect Jesus to be using the word in the same way?
Philippians 1:25-26, “And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, 26 that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again.”
Philippians 2:12, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;”
These two verses in Philippians likewise clearly use "parousia" to refer to a physical arrival and presence.
In contrast to this, when Paul wanted to talk about being with people spiritually he used to term "pareimi pneuma", "present in spirit", such as in 1 Corinthians 5:3. So if, in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus was referring to being present in spirit in the clouds why didn't he use that term? Why did he instead use a term that seems to refer to physical presence?
Does anything in the Bible support the preterist understanding of parousia? Perhaps something in the Greek Old Testament uses it in a spiritual way? I don't know, but I'd love to know what preterists think, so if anyone would let me know how they understand this term I'd greatly appreciate it. Thank you.
Do words have only one nuance? The word presence is certainly not restricted to that which is physical. The understanding of Parousia becomes clear when it is placed in its proper context and historical setting. For example, Paul wrote to the Thessalonians and commended them for their faith amid the harsh persecutions THEY were enduring at the hands of the JEWS of their day. Paul assures THEM that in THEIR lifetime THEY will be given relief. When? AT HIS APPEARING (apokalupsis--revealing). God would inflict upon their persecutors the SAME abuses and trials they had executed against those very Thessalonians. He did that at His appearing in A.D. 70 when those very JEWS were harshly judged for their idolatry, adultery, and murder of His people. Jesus pronounced them "guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth." Their city and Temple (house) were totally destroyed and the "power of the holy people" was "completely shattered" (Dan. 12).

"Presence" simply means "presence." The context determines whether it is physical or not. There is nothing inherent in the word itself that demands a physical aspect.
 
First of all, resurrection is NOT the hope of the Church. It was the hope of Israel.

The resurrection is the hope of the Church.


Paul addressing the Church —

For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:16-24


  • For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.



Teaching the resurrection is past is heresy.


But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:16-18


Those who teach the resurrection is past have strayed from the truth and are lost.





JLB
 
We do not believe that Christ was to come "bodily" and "visibly" to all.

Who is “we”?


The Bible is clear. He will return and every eye will see Him.


Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:9-11


  • This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.

again


Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7


again



And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10




JLB
 
He did that at His appearing in A.D. 70 when those very JEWS were harshly judged for their idolatry, adultery, and murder of His people. Jesus pronounced them "guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth."


Jesus didn’t appear in 70 AD.


Jesus taught His disciples on the mount of Olives from the book of Zechariah 14.

When He refers to Jerusalem being surrounded by armies He is referring to the Day of the Lord when He returns at the end of the age.

  • For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,

As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.

Zechariah 14:1-7


The saints will return with the Lord on that Day; the day of the Lord.



This is future and will come to pass at His coming.




JLB
 
Does anything in the Bible support the preterist understanding of parousia? Perhaps something in the Greek Old Testament uses it in a spiritual way? I don't know, but I'd love to know what preterists think, so if anyone would let me know how they understand this term I'd greatly appreciate it. Thank you.
In your examples, all of the subjects connected to the word parousia were human beings in the flesh, however in scripture, where the subject of the word parousia is Jesus, we must consider this:
2 Corinthians 5:16
Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no more.

We also read:
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

And:
1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, [be] honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

And:
Luke 17:20
And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:


Here is the Coming that took place in 70AD:
"When therefore the Lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those farmers?" They told him, "He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will lease out the vineyard to other farmers, who will give him the fruit in its season." Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, the same was made the head of the corner. This was from the Lord. It is marvelous in our eyes?' "Therefore I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and will be given to a nation bringing forth its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but on whoever it will fall, it will scatter him as dust." When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they understood that he spoke about them. (Matthew 21:40-45)

Jesus IS the stone of Matthew 21 that came and crushed them to dust at that time.

We are not still waiting for the coming of the Cheif cornerstone, the Lord of the Vineyard, foretold in Matthew 21:40-45, to take place.
 
In your examples, all of the subjects connected to the word parousia were human beings in the flesh, however in scripture, where the subject of the word parousia is Jesus, we must consider this:
2 Corinthians 5:16
Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no more.

We also read:
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

And:
1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, [be] honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

And:
Luke 17:20
And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:


Here is the Coming that took place in 70AD:
"When therefore the Lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those farmers?" They told him, "He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will lease out the vineyard to other farmers, who will give him the fruit in its season." Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, the same was made the head of the corner. This was from the Lord. It is marvelous in our eyes?' "Therefore I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and will be given to a nation bringing forth its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but on whoever it will fall, it will scatter him as dust." When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they understood that he spoke about them. (Matthew 21:40-45)

Jesus IS the stone of Matthew 21 that came and crushed them to dust at that time.

We are not still waiting for the coming of the Cheif cornerstone, the Lord of the Vineyard, foretold in Matthew 21:40-45, to take place.

The coming of the Lord, and the resurrection of the dead in Christ together with the rapture will take place on the last day, in which the antichrist and the wicked will be destroyed, especially those who surrounded Jerusalem to fight against them.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3



The coming of the Lord is the day of the Lord, in which He gathers Hs people at the resurrection and rapture, and fights against those who surround Jerusalem, and He destroys them as well as the antichrist.


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

Zechariah 14:1-5


  • Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.



Do you believe this already happened in 70 AD?





JLB
 
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