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Proof of Trinity

Randy

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The word of God is this. The Word of the Father. Even Rev. was given to the Son by God to give to the church. And the Holy Spirit who bears witness speaks from what He hears from the mind of the Spirit as in those that listen to the Father and learn from Him go to the Son and Jesus will raise them up on the last day. How can Jesus do that? The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Him. He therefore is the image of the Living God and the exact representation of Gods being. (God in that context) I think its self evident that the One who was pleased to have His fullness dwell in Jesus is the One Jesus gave credit to for His glory. His God and Our God. His Father and our Father. Jesus has a place on His Fathers throne forever. The Father has glorified HIS Son and in the Son the Father is glorified.

When one states there is Only One God I would state that is truth. So one should start with what they know to be true.
 

Doulos Iesou

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And , I might add, neither do you. On how many occasions have trinitarians stated 'this is a great mystery' when confronting such seriously trinitarian-contradictory passages as John 14.28? 'My Father is greater than I'. Well, is He greater, or isn't He?
It's not contradictory, we affirm he is subordinate in one way, and equal in another. [Edited personal jab by Staff.]

And the undoubted 2 facts that

1 God cannot sin
2 But Jesus certainly could (but didn't).

Therefore, Jesus could not be God in nature. And if the ability to sin is inferior to being incapable of sin, then Jesus must have been inferior to His Father: which, of course, is clearly implied by John 14. 28 above, and elsewhere.
You are completely ignoring the fact that we believe Jesus had a truly human nature. Do you even care to understand our position, or are you content with dismantling a strawman?

You've just added another: functionally subordinate to the Father, but not ontologically.

A fundamental tenet of the trinity is that The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are: 'co-equal, co-substantial, co-eternal' and a lot of other co-'s besides.

None of the three, therefore, on the grounds of 'co-equality' can possibly be 'subordinate' to any other. That is a contradiction in terms, and logically unacceptable. So you have just flatly contradicted your own position, haven't you?
It's not a contradiction.

We say that in regards to ontology, the Father and Jesus are co-equal.

We say that in regards to how they function, Jesus is subordinate to the Father.

The two statements are not contradictory.

A husband and wife are both equals, but functionally the wife is subordinate to the husband. Somewhat similar is the relationship within the trinity.

The whole tenor of scripture, from beginning to end, is that 'there is One God, the Father', and 'Jesus Christ our Lord is His Son'.

There is, therefore, a divine hierarchy: namely Number One: The Father. Number Two: The Son.

You may not disregard this plainness of doctrine, for whatever reason.
It's so plain that it is by far the minority doctrine.. Oh wait.. Constantine made me believe it right?

That, I'm afraid, is a selected verse, and a possible mistranslation. On such flimsy grounds do you base your argument.
A possible mistranslation? Please demonstrate, as I read the Greek quite well and would greatly contest this naked assertion.

Tell us how John 1 is a mistranslation. If it's not a mistranslation, then your whole entire theology is wrong.
 
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veryberry

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John 2: 19 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Romans 8: 11 - But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you,.....
Gal 1: 1 - Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Here we have Jesus, the holy Spirit, and the Father coming together and raising the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead.
 

Randy

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John 2: 19 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Romans 8: 11 - But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you,.....
Gal 1: 1 - Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Here we have Jesus, the holy Spirit, and the Father coming together and raising the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead.

Jesus stated "Father into your hands I commit MY SPIRIT"
Here we have Jesus putting His trust in God His Father.

Jesus never dies as He is made alive by the Spirit and He went and preached to the spirits held in prison. Jesus lives by the living Father in Him just as we live (christians) live by Him (Jesus) The Father sends the Holy Spirit in Jesus's name.
The Holy Spirit is the Fathers to give and take and the Father is the gardner and Jesus is the true vine that we are grafted into.

I actually believe this in context.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being 4 in him was life,[a] and the life was the light of all people. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.

All the fullness of God (Deity) was pleased to dwell in Him. (Jesus - the Firstborn Son) It does not state that Jesus is that Deity. What is does state is that Jesus the Son is all that the Father is. (God in that context) The image of the invisible God.

The Father does testify about the Son in that context and I believe it is self evident that the One who Jesus called the One true God and His God was the "giver" of that fullness. The fullness was given not made or born as there never will be another God after the Father. But the Father is in the Son and in that context they are One. You believe Jesus is the Word of God as I stated that means "The word of the Father" Jesus stated it was the Father in Him doing His work. Scripture states in these last days God has spoken to us by His Son.

Randy
 
A

Asyncritus

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[Edited personal stab by staff]

Your problem is not diminished by this assertion. Here's the Athanasian creed landing you in some serious pickle: My commentary is in brackets.

But the Godhead [the word godhead does not occur in the NT.of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost],

is all one; the Glory equal [!!!!!!]

[this is terrible. What does God say? He takes it exceedingly seriously:
Isa 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.]


the Majesty coeternal.
[What this means I cannot determine. Perhaps the next few words might help]

Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost

[This is completely wrong. God 'only hath immortality' -
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.


The Father has raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus did not raise Himself:

Ac 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:
Ac 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, [and given Him immortality] now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.]


So false.

The Father uncreated; [absolutely ccorrect]

the Son uncreated;

[absolutely wrong.

Re 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

Notice the plain implication that God is creating certain characteristics in Jesus which were not there before - otherwise there would have been no need to do this creating!

and the Holy Ghost uncreated.[Since the Holy Spirit is the personification of the power of God, there can be no argument about this]

The Father unlimited;[ correct]

the Son unlimited;

[because He has received this power and authority from the Father.

Mt 28.18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

By whom? Answer, by the Father. Note in Php 2 the utter dependence of the Son upon the Father:

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You note that the whole purpose of all this exaltation, is THAT GOD MAY BE GLORIFIED.

The churches are so fond of cutting short the quotation : 'Jesus Christ is Lord' they say - and totally miss out the absolute reason WHY He is Lord - that God may be glorified.

and the Holy Ghost unlimited.

The Father eternal; [correct]

the Son eternal; [completely incorrect. If He is the beginning of the creation of God, then by definition He was created. And if created, He cannot be eternal.

26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

Therefore, at the time the Psalm was written, Jesus WAS NOT God's firstborn. Therefore He cannot be eternal.

Also note, as I have pointed out before, that the Father is Jesus' God - and that single statement finishes all trinitarian cavilling about equality.


There is also Jesus' own statement:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
You can never be equal to the God you serve.


You are completely ignoring the fact that we believe Jesus had a truly human nature. Do you even care to understand our position, or are you content with dismantling a strawman?

edited . You have made no apparent effort to reconcile all of these passages I have cited, and the inferences I draw from them.

How about trying to do so?

It's not a contradiction.

We say that in regards to ontology, the Father and Jesus are co-equal.

As I have pointed out, this is a meaningless and scripturally non-existent statement , coined by theologians who are far more concerned with writing this stuff, and ignoring the perfectly plain tenor of scripture.

We say that in regards to how they function, Jesus is subordinate to the Father.
The two statements are not contradictory.

On the contrary, they are totally irreconcilable. Jesus is absolutely subordinate to His Father. He say so in dozens of places. I'll list them for you, and you can do your best to ignore them.
A husband and wife are both equals, but functionally the wife is subordinate to the husband. Somewhat similar is the relationship within the trinity.

This is an objectionable analogy. God and Jesus are in no way like a husband and wife. They are Father and Son - in no sense equal to one another.

It's so plain that it is by far the minority doctrine.. Oh wait.. Constantine made me believe it right?

???????
A possible mistranslation? Please demonstrate, as I read the Greek quite well and would greatly contest this naked assertion.

I have 10 versions listed in my Online Bible. Not one of them says 'God was the Word'. So where do you get that from?

Tell us how John 1 is a mistranslation. If it's not a mistranslation, then your whole entire theology is wrong.

I will post the entire list of passages IN JOHN'S GOSPEL, on which you are so totally dependent, which categorically state or imply that God is greater that Jesus.

When you have considered those passages, perhaps we can discuss John 1: 1 -14.
 
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Asyncritus

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Here are the passages I referred to earlier.

1. “ No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” (Joh 1:18 )

2. “ And I saw and bore testimony, that this is the Son of God.” (Joh 1:34 )

3. “ Nathanael answered and said to him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.” (Joh 1:49 )

4. “ And said to them that sold doves, Take these things hence: make not my Father’s house a house of merchandise.” (Joh 2:16 )

5. “ The same came to Jesus by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.” (Joh 3:2 )

6. “ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (Joh 3:16 )

7. “ He that believeth on him, is not condemned: but he that believeth not, is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.” (Joh 3:18 )

8. “ For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him may be saved.” (Joh 3:17 )

9. “ For he whom God hath sent, speaketh the words of God: for to him God giveth not the Spirit by measure.” (Joh 3:34 )

10. “ The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.” (Joh 3:35 )

11. “ The woman saith to him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.” (Joh 4:19 )

12. “ Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship, for salvation is from the Jews.” (Joh 4:22 )

13. “ Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.” (Joh 5:18 )

14. “ Then answered Jesus, and said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you,The Son can do nothing by himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for whatever things he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.” (Joh 5:19 )

15. “ For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and he will show him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth the dead, and reviveth them; even so the Son reviveth whom he will.” (Joh 5:20-21 )

16. “ For the Father judgeth no man; buthath committed all judgment to the Son:” (Joh 5:22 )

17. “ Verily, verily, I say to you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but hath passed from death to life.” (Joh 5:24 )

18. “ Verily, verily, I say to you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.” (Joh 5:25-27 )


19. “ I can of my own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who hath sent me.” (Joh 5:30 )

20. “ But I have greater testimony than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear testimony concerning me, that the Father hath sent me.” (Joh 5:36 )

21. “ And the Father himself who hath sent me, hath borne testimony concerning me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.” (Joh 5:37 )

22. “ And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.” (Joh 5:38 )

23. “ I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.” (Joh 5:43 )

24. “ And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes, as much as they would.” (Joh 6:11 )

25. “ Labor not for the food which perisheth, but for that food which endureth to everlasting life, which the Son of man will give to you:for him hath God the Father sealed.” (Joh 6:27 )

26. “ Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” (Joh 6:29 )

27. “ Then Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.” (Joh 6:32 )

28. “ All that the Father giveth me, shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise reject.” (Joh 6:37 )

29. “ For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will who hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” (Joh 6:38-39 )

30. “ And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” (Joh 6:40 )

31. “ No man can come to me, except the Father who hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” (Joh 6:44 )

32. “ It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught from God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned from the Father, cometh to me.” (Joh 6:45 )

33. “ Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he who is from God, he hath seen the Father.” (Joh 6:46 )

34. “ As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.” (Joh 6:57 )

35. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. Jn 6.65

36. “ And we believe, and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Joh 6:69 )

37. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (John 7.17)


38. “ And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.” (Joh 8:16 )

39. “ I am one that testifieth concerning myself; and the Father that sent me, testifieth concerning me.” (Joh 8:18 )
 
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Asyncritus

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40. “ Then said Jesus to them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.” (Joh 8:28 )

41. “ Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.” (Joh 8:42 )

42. “ But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard from God: this did not Abraham.” (Joh 8:40 )

43. “ And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.” (Joh 8:29 )

44. “ Jesus answered, If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honoreth me, of whom ye say, that he is your God:” (Joh 8:54 )

45. “ Jesus heard that they had cast him out: and when he had found him, he said to him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?” (Joh 9:35 )

46. “ No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received from my Father.” (Joh 10:18 )

47. “ My Father, who gave them to me, is greater than all; and none is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.” (Joh 10:29 )

48. “ Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?” (Joh 10:36 )

49. “ Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shown you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?” (Joh 10:32 )

50. 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

51. “ But I know that even now, whatever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.” (Joh 11:22 )

52. “ Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me: And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people who stand by, I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.” (Joh 11:41-42 )

53. “ For I have not spoken from myself; but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.” (Joh 12:49 )

54. “ And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatever I speak therefore, even as the Father said to me, so I speak.” (Joh 12:50 )

55. “ Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God, and was going to God;” (Joh 13:3 )

56. “ Therefore when he had gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.” (Joh 13:31 )

57. “ If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and will immediately glorify him.” (Joh 13:32 )

58. “ Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you, I speak not from myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (Joh 14:10 )

59. “ And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;” (Joh 14:16 )

60. “ But the Comforter, who is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.” (Joh 14:26 )

61. “ Ye have heard that I said to you, I go away, and come again to you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go to the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” (Joh 14:28 )

62. “ But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.” (Joh 14:31 )

63. I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. (Joh.15.1)

64. “ If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.” (Joh 15:10 )

65. “ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he will testify concerning me.” (Joh 15:26 )
.
66. “ I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.” (Joh 16:28 )

67. “ These words spoke Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:” (Joh 17:1 )

68. “ As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.” (Joh 17:2 )

69. “ And this is life eternal, that they may know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (Joh 17:3 )

70. “ And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thy ownself, with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (Joh 17:5 )

71. “ I have given to them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.” (Joh 17:14 )

72. “ And the glory which thou gavest to me, I have given to them; that they may be one, even as we are one.” (Joh 17:22 )

73. “ Father, I will that they also whom thou hast given to me be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory which thou hast given to me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.” (Joh 17:24 )

74. “ Then said Jesus to Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?” (Joh 18:11 )

75. “ The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.” (Joh 19:7 )

76. “ Jesus saith to her, Touch me not: for I have not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.” (Joh 20:17 )

77. “ But these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye may have life through his name.” (Joh 20:31 )
 
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veryberry

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1 John 5: 7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
 

Doulos Iesou

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1 John 5: 7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
That is an interpolation, added several hundred years after the fact. Wouldn't build your argument on that if I were you.
 

jasoncran

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That specific verse is a proven interpolation, not the entirety of the epistle.
yet jesus said in matthew 28
go and baptize in the name of the son, the father and holy ghost. hardly interpolation. and hundred years after the fact. source for saying that? if that is the case then one john isn't cannon. strong statement.
 

Doulos Iesou

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yet jesus said in matthew 28
go and baptize in the name of the son, the father and holy ghost. hardly interpolation. and hundred years after the fact. source for saying that? if that is the case then one john isn't cannon. strong statement.
1 John 5:7 isn't in the earliest manuscripts... it's an interpolation. That does not warrant throwing out the whole of 1 John. What makes you come to that conclusion? Most modern Bible translations don't even include 1 John 5:7 any more because they agree with my assessment.
 

jasoncran

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1 John 5:7 isn't in the earliest manuscripts... it's an interpolation. That does not warrant throwing out the whole of 1 John. What makes you come to that conclusion? Most modern Bible translations don't even include 1 John 5:7 any more because they agree with my assessment.
modern?

let see. would that be the niv? or the rsv, kjv,nkjv, ylt, and also all them that use the textus recipticus which is used for the literal translation of the greek verse the niv uses the thought translation?

yet even the niv has it. so how could it be added?

http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/1 John 5:7

or that its the comma?

uhm yeah that changes nothing. a simple comma would change the meaning? how so?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

yet it does negate the trinity if omitted. and is used by the anti-innerancy types. I will ask my elder who has a masters in theology. he will break it down for me. odd that It was added and then taken out. it changes the meaning. the witness on the earth? blood, water and the spirit?lower case I might add. meaning other then the Holy Spirit.
 

Doulos Iesou

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modern?

let see. would that be the niv? or the rsv, kjv,nkjv, ylt, and also all them that use the textus recipticus which is used for the literal translation of the greek verse the niv uses the thought translation?

yet even the niv has it. so how could it be added?

http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/1 John 5:7

or that its the comma?

uhm yeah that changes nothing. a simple comma would change the meaning? how so?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

yet it does negate the trinity if omitted. and is used by the anti-innerancy types. I will ask my elder who has a masters in theology. he will break it down for me. odd that It was added and then taken out. it changes the meaning. the witness on the earth? blood, water and the spirit?lower case I might add. meaning other then the Holy Spirit.
This is what I am referring to below. Here is the KVJ:

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (KJV)

The italicized portion is the interpolation.

Here are the most recent translations.

For there are three that testify: (NIV)

For there are three that testify: (ESV)

For there are three that testify: (NASB)

For there are three that testify: (HCSB)

For there are three that testify, (NET)

And the most accurate of the Greek rendering is this: ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες. This also excludes the italicized portion.

All of the great uncial codices exclude this portion, along with the other earliest manuscripts. It's not found in any Greek manuscript prior to the 14th Century, and was a later addition to the Latin Vulgate. Even the majority of trinitarians, such as myself accept this proven fact.
 

jasoncran

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I will ask about this. I remember something mentioned but I cant remember what they elders said.
 

veryberry

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I'll do more study on this but it is found in old syriac versions(A.D. 150), Old Latin versions(A.D. 180), Cyprian's writings(A.D. 250), the writings by Priscillian and Pithanasius(A.D 350), at the Council of Carthage(A.D. 415), Jerome's works(A.D. 450), Fulgentius' quotations(A.D. 510), four different Waldensian Bibles(A.D. 600- A.D. 1400), a minuscule Greek manuscript (no.88), and manuscript 61 (A.D. 1519). Some of these are quite a bit older than several 100 years.
 

Doulos Iesou

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I'll do more study on this.
Please do some more study on this, there is no possible way your statements can be true.

but it is found in old syriac versions(A.D. 150),
What "old syriac version? You do realize how few manuscripts/papyri we have from the 2nd Century? I know of no Syriac "version" manuscript from the 2nd Century, to which are you referring so that we can examine it's contents?

Old Latin versions(A.D. 180),
The earliest Latin version was the Vetus Latina, which didn't come until 382-405 AD.[1] Where are you getting your information?

Cyprian's writings(A.D. 250)
He wrote the following.

"The Lord says, 'I and the Father are one'
and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
'And these three are one.'"
This is apart of his treatise on John 10:30.[2] In no way does this demonstrate that 1 John originally contained the "comma."

the writings by Priscillian and Pithanasius(A.D 350),
None of which cite an actual verse in their discussions, especially a verse from 1 John 5:7-8.

at the Council of Carthage(A.D. 415),
I would agree that this is perhaps the earliest occurrence of the interpolation.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vetus_Latina
[2] http://books.google.com/books?id=hMU7AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA382#v=onepage&q&f=false
 

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Perhaps you should learn a few manners.

Your problem is not diminished by this assertion. Here's the Athanasian creed landing you in some serious pickle: My commentary is in brackets.

But the Godhead [the word godhead does not occur in the NT.of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost],

is all one; the Glory equal [!!!!!!]

[this is terrible. What does God say? He takes it exceedingly seriously:
Isa 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.]


the Majesty coeternal.
[What this means I cannot determine. Perhaps the next few words might help]

en, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

The Father has raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus did not raise Himself:

Ac 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:
Ac 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, [and given Him immortality] now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.]


So false.

The Father uncreated; [absolutely ccorrect]

the Son uncreated;

[absolutely wrong.

Re 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

Notice the plain implication that God is creating certain characteristics in Jesus which were not there before - otherwise there would have been no need to do this creating!

and the Holy Ghost uncreated.[Since the Holy Spirit is the personification of the power of God, there can be no argument about this]

The Father unlimited;[ correct]

the Son unlimited;

[He has received this power and authority from the Father.

Mt 28.18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

By whom? Answer, by the Father. Note in Php 2 the utter dependence of the Son upon the Father:

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

You note that the whole purpose of all this exaltation, is THAT GOD MAY BE GLORIFIED.

The churches are so fond of cutting short the quotation : 'Jesus Christ is Lord' they say - and totally miss out the absolute reason WHY He is Lord - that God may be glorified.

and the Holy Ghost unlimited.

The Father eternal; [correct]

the Son eternal; [completely incorrect. If He is the beginning of the creation of God, then by definition He was created. And if created, He cannot be eternal.

26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

Therefore, at the time the Psalm was written, Jesus WAS NOT God's firstborn. Therefore He cannot be eternal.

Also note, as I have pointed out before, that the Father is Jesus' God - and that single statement finishes all trinitarian cavilling about equality.


There is also Jesus' own statement:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
You can never be equal to the God you serve.




As I pointed out before, even you don't understand your own position. You have made no apparent effort to reconcile all of these passages I have cited, and the inferences I draw from them.

How about trying to do so?



As I have pointed out, this is a meaningless and scripturally non-existent statement , coined by theologians who are far more concerned with writing this stuff, and ignoring the perfectly plain tenor of scripture.


On the contrary, they are totally irreconcilable. Jesus is absolutely subordinate to His Father. He say so in dozens of places. I'll list them for you, and you can do your best to ignore them.


This is an objectionable analogy. God and Jesus are in no way like a husband and wife. They are Father and Son - in no sense equal to one another.



???????


I have 10 versions listed in my Online Bible. Not one of them says 'God was the Word'. So where do you get that from?
I will post the entire list of passages IN JOHN'S GOSPEL, on which you are so totally dependent, which categorically state or imply that God is greater that Jesus.

When you have considered those passages, perhaps we can discuss John 1: 1 -14.
And herein lies the problem. You are elevating the humanity of Christ above his deity, without any biblical basis for doing so. It's hard to not notice that you have thus far ignored me.

40. “ Then said Jesus to them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.” (Joh 8:28 )

41. “ Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.” (Joh 8:42 )

42. “ But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard from God: this did not Abraham.” (Joh 8:40 )

43. “ And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.” (Joh 8:29 )

44. “ Jesus answered, If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honoreth me, of whom ye say, that he is your God:” (Joh 8:54 )

45. “ Jesus heard that they had cast him out: and when he had found him, he said to him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?” (Joh 9:35 )

46. “ No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received from my Father.” (Joh 10:18 )

47. “ My Father, who gave them to me, is greater than all; and none is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.” (Joh 10:29 )

48. “ Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?” (Joh 10:36 )

.....

75. “ The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.” (Joh 19:7 )

76. “ Jesus saith to her, Touch me not: for I have not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.” (Joh 20:17 )

77. “ But these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye may have life through his name.” (Joh 20:31 )
Congratulations, you have posted some verses, most of which is mere prooftexting. You have divorced the passages in those two posts completely from the rest of Scripture. You end up with the wrong conclusion because you ignore significant passages from Scripture, thereby taking the rest out of context. I have pointed out to you many times in the past that that simply is not how biblical interpretation is done. You are in serious, serious error.
 

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Even the majority of trinitarians, such as myself accept this proven fact.
I would include myself as well. It's just too much of a neat and tidy package, too clear of a statement, to not have been a later addition.
 
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