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Proof of Trinity

Free

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Sticks and stones may break my bones - but the truth will never hurt me.
It just might, in the end.

Free, 'Son of God' means 'Son of God'. It does not mean 'God'! I am the son of Richard. Does that mean I am Richard? What utter nonsense!
I agree, that would be nonsense. But that is not at all what I said. Presuming that Richard is a human, being the son of Richard would make you human in nature, not Richard. Similarly, Son of God means that Jesus is God in nature, not the Father.

Free said:
As I have asked time and time again, and have yet to have anyone do it, look up every instance of the use of Son of God when it refers to Jesus, and take note of the circumstances and context. But even then, your argument is made null by John 1:14 and John 3:16, to give only two. Jesus is the unique, the one and only, Son of God. This is made abundantly clear in Scripture.
Absolutely right, for once. But the Richard argument still holds. He is the Son of God, not God.
He is God in nature, which is shown by the use of Son of God.

So, how about looking up every use of "Son of God" in the gospels? Look at the context and report back what you find. I've asked you several times in the past and you have never done so. How about doing it this time? Maybe you'll prove me wrong.

Free said:
Asyncritus said:
He took part of the nature of man - Hebrews says so very clearly and extremely emphatically, but doubtless you've missed or ignored that too:

2.14 ¶ Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; [Notice the mounting, cumulative, powerful emphasis which cannot be denied? Where is this 'God in nature' business in that passage? Nowhere to be seen]
That does nothing to show that anything I've said is incorrect and I'm not sure why you think it does. The most we can say about that is that he existed prior to his incarnation.
As fine an example of question begging and refusal to face the truth as I've heard recently.
Umm...there is no begging the question there or refusal to face the truth. The passage shows his humanity, something which I nor any other Trinitarian here denies. The fact that it says he "took part of the same," implies that he existed prior to his "[taking] part of the same." We cannot make it say anything more.

Free said:
But you, on the other hand, continue to ignore Heb 1:2, "but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world." According to your theology, that is a false statement, just like John 1:1-3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Col 1:16-17. If Jesus was created, then all those passages are false. That is an argument I have made more times in this thread than I can count, yet you have not addressed it.
You really should be more careful, and pay some attention to what the text actually says. You think 'worlds' = the planets etc.

Unfortunately, not.

'Worlds' = aiom = ages. Sorry.
And you should do more study before being so presumptive and arrogant. It can mean 'world' and is in fact translated as such eight times:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/aion.html

Even then, if it were to mean 'ages,' it makes no difference. You once again sidestep an argument by focusing on something unimportant. This is getting more than tiresome.

Free said:
But it doesn't stop there in Heb 1. We have verse 8, where the Father says of the Son:

'But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.' (ESV)
Quite right. It doesn't stop there. Haven't you noticed that is says ever so clearly. 'As He hath BY INHERITANCE obtained a more excellent name than they'? By INHERITANCE - from His Father, who is 'greater than I'. Remember that?

The title 'God' is a TITLE, Free, not a name. Don't you know that yet?

A title can be applied to anybody: Jesus said 'Have I not said Ye are gods'? Remember?

The title is being applied to Him, by INHERITANCE.
This really says it all, doesn't it? When I make arguments that Jesus is God, you get all up in arms and argue that he isn't. Yet when presented with a verses which clearly calls Jesus God, you say it is just a title, as though that title means very little. You have an excuse for everything.

Jesus is very clearly called God, by the Father. If 'God' here doesn't mean anything, then it means nothing in the rest of Scripture and we may as well burn our Bibles and go home. Congrats on undermining all of Scripture.

Of course it should be mentioned that the name which he inherited is "Son." Look at the context.

Free said:
This supports what was said in verse 2. Also supporting verses 2 and 8 are verses 10-13:

Heb 1:10 And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
This is possibly the strongest support for your POV.

But it only stands if you totally ignore (as you often do) that most vital piece of information on the planet for the understanding of scripture: the context.

This will take a bit of time, so let me put it in a few shorter posts.
The context is fine. It means what it means. We have an OT passage which speaks of YHWH being applied to the Son by the Father. The context is clear: Jesus is YHWH in the flesh but not the Father.
 

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Asyncritus,

I'm not going to even bother responding to your 'explanation' of Heb 1:10-13. You clearly do not understand biblical interpretation. You don't even understand a basic doctrine of the Trinity, yet you so vehemently argue against it.

As I stated above, we have an OT passage which speaks of YHWH creating the foundations of the earth being applied to the Son by the Father. The meaning is abundantly clear.
 

JLB

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Asyncritus said -

Paul says, and I quoted the passage, the Jesus is now 'MAN'. Of course, you can ignore it, or wave it away - but one thing is sure, you can't explain it!

He BECAME a Man.

God was manifested in the flesh.

The Word became flesh.

As a Man Jesus died, as God He raised himself from the dead.

He is both.


JLB
 

Jesse Stone

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Free #707
You don't have to believe anything I say. Just a small town cop.

I would be happy if you could understand and believe the bible without interpreting it. If it's not a metaphor or a parable, then the literal meaning is the meaning. Metaphors are self-evident (e.g., the "hand" of God who is Spirit), parables are generally explained in context. No need to make the bible more complex than it really is. When you interpret the bible, you become your own authority. When you say everyone of necessity interprets the bible, you're saying in effect that everyone is their own authority. Not God, Jesus Christ, the bible, nor the Church. To me, not something to base my life on. But that's just me.

Christians base their lives on interpretations all the time. Their own or someone else's. It's had the effect of creating what's been seen in Christianity for centuries. Calvinists would say that's the sovereignty of God that keeps two thirds of the world from being saved, at least currently. Some might blame it on Satan. I'm inclined to not place the blame on God who wants everyone to be saved or on Satan who wants no one to be saved. Rather where it belongs. At the feet of Christians who would rather follow their own flesh or mind instead of the Spirit. Perpetuating what started a long time ago. Oh right. You doubt not only the bible can be understood without interpreting it, but also that the Spirit can lead one into truth. I know why because it's been mentioned before. And I understand your reasons. But I don't have to nor do I agree with them.

God not being able to be swayed by evil is an accurate understanding of James 1:13. God can be tested apparently, if the fleece story means anything. But that's not the issue here.

While on earth, Jesus was only a man. If Philippians 2, what Jesus consistently said about saying and doing only what the father gave him, not to mention his death and resurrection, is to have any real meaning.

Read what I said to JLB with more attention. Then you'll see what I wrote makes perfect sense in the context in which it was written.
 
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Jesse Stone

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Randy #708
How does one hear the Father when God is in heaven? The Spirit speaks what he hears.


Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD. (Jeremiah 23:24)

God is omnipresent. Jesus on the other hand is not. He is seated on the right hand of God. He is experienced by those who believe through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

It was man who wrote the trinity.

Curious how if one denies one part of a view, it's automatically assumed the opposing view is held.

So if the HS is some distinct separate person from the Father I don't know who He is.


But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8:9)

The Spirit is both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit that dwells within is a person who proceeds from the Father and is sent by the son.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Romans 8:14)

The Spirit leads those who are sons of God. I suppose a force could do this, but more apt for a person.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God (Romans 8:16)

The Spirit bears witness. Again I suppose a force could do this, but more apt for a person.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:26-27)

Intercession. A force can't do this. Only a person can make intercession. And only a person has a mind.

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me (John 15:26)

The comforter testifies of the son. Again I suppose a force could do this, but more apt for a person.

nor was glory given in Rev to the HS only the Father and Son.


12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (John 16:12-15)

An argument from silence is no argument. The bible is written to man. Not everything is included. John says that if only the things Jesus did during three years were written down, the world couldn't contain the books written. The Holy Spirit isn't on earth for the purpose of glory. Rather for the purpose of revealing God and his son. Why would John say "he shall not speak of himself" if he's only a force? A force couldn't speak of himself.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (1Corinthians 8:6)

Holy Spirit not mentioned? Just have to look at a wider context:

1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1Corinthians 6:11)

Just out of curiosity, what is your interpretation of the seven Spirits of God?
 
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Jesse Stone

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JLB #710
Jesse Stone said:
So are you saying he could be tempted, but couldn't sin? Not what the Bible says:
JLB said:
Ok, fair enough. Please quote the scripture you are referring to.

Post #705 was all about that. Hebrews 4:15.

Jesus is both God and Man. God became a Man. God became flesh.

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:5-11)

On earth Jesus Christ was just a man.

Regarding the form of God. If it means he was God, why didn't Paul just say "though he was God, he made himself nothing"? Instead of that long drawn out phrase "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped"? If he was God, he wouldn't have thought equality with God a thing to be grasped. The word translated grasped means seized as a prize. Not "something to keep hold of" as it is often interpreted to mean. Certainly not "as something to be used for His own advantage" as the HCSB translates it. Nor "something to be used for his own benefit." as the New Century Version translates it. Nor "something to cling to" as the New Living Translation translates it. Tradition never dies. If Jesus is God, he wouldn't have a need to seize something he already had.

Form of God in v. 6 is a reference to spirit, not Godhood. Like God the father, the son was spirit in form. Spirit in form until he was born in the likeness of men. The literal meaning of the Greek word. Then he was human in every way that it means to be human. That is, Jesus was a man. That's what the Greek word means in v. 8. Not just appearance as the NASB, NIV, and NKJV translates it. If just appearance, then Jesus only appeared to be human, but was not. That, as I remember, is heresy even to Trinitarians.

Satan thought equality with God was a thing to be grasped, seized as a prize. He wanted to be equal with God. Jesus, the generated or only begotten son of God, higher than any angel by generation and inheritance, but as a son lower than God the father, thought the opposite. Because of this, God has highly exalted him. God the father exalted him, as seen in v. 11. To the glory of God the father.

1 ¶ And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light.
3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.
4 And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
5 He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.”
6 When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified.
7 But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and have no fear.”
8 And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.
9 And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.” (Matthew 17:1-8)

This could be construed to be against what I said above. But the context shows that what Peter et al experienced was a vision. A vision always has a purpose. In this case it was to show Jesus to be the beloved son of God. Not that he is God. That they were to listen to him. A confirmation of what was revealed to Peter alone earlier:

16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 16:16-17)
 
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JLB

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Jesse Stone said -

Post #705 was all about that. Hebrews 4:15.

Yes I think we all agree Jesus was our High Priest and could be tempted as a man.

Are you somehow trying to suggest Jesus was just a body.

God became a man, and took on flesh.





Jesse Stone said -

On earth Jesus Christ was just a man.

Regarding the form of God. If it means he was God, why didn't Paul just say "though he was God, he made himself nothing"? Instead of that long drawn out phrase "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped"? If he was God, he wouldn't have thought equality with God a thing to be grasped. The word translated grasped means seized as a prize. Not "something to keep hold of" as it is often interpreted to mean. Certainly not "as something to be used for His own advantage" as the HCSB translates it. Nor "something to be used for his own benefit." as the New Century Version translates it. Nor "something to cling to" as the New Living Translation translates it. Tradition never dies. If Jesus is God, he wouldn't have a need to seize something he already had.

Form of God in v. 6 is a reference to spirit, not Godhood. Like God the father, the son was spirit in form. Spirit in form until he was born in the likeness of men. The literal meaning of the Greek word. Then he was human in every way that it means to be human. That is, Jesus was a man. That's what the Greek word means in v. 8. Not just appearance as the NASB, NIV, and NKJV translates it. If just appearance, then Jesus only appeared to be human, but was not. That, as I remember, is heresy even to Trinitarians.

Satan thought equality with God was a thing to be grasped, seized as a prize. He wanted to be equal with God. Jesus, the generated or only begotten son of God, higher than any angel by generation and inheritance, but as a son lower than God the father, thought the opposite. Because of this, God has highly exalted him. God the father exalted him, as seen in v. 11. To the glory of God the father.

Jesus made this clear and definitive statement -

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." 57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:56-59

He was declaring that He Himself was in fact YHWH. That is why they no longer were concerned with trying to trick Him into saying something that would give them the right to have Him crucified, they had all they needed and could just pick up stones and kill Him on the spot with no repercussions. HE HAD JUST OPENLY CLAIMED HE WAS GOD HIMSELF.


Jesus was, is and forever will be God.

Not God the Father, but God's only begotten Son.

He created all things, and nothing that was made, made without Him.

He is YHWH, The Lord God Almighty.

He as God's Son became flesh.



JLB
 

Jesse Stone

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Free #719

This post is intended to be read all the way through before commenting.


Denominationalism isn't necessarily bad in and of itself

No? You think I'm biased about that too? Sour grapes because I can't be a Christian? That I'm just interpreting the bible against denominationalism?

20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. (John 17:20-23)

In this prayer, Jesus says he's asking his father that those who believe through the disciples be one with one another in the same way father and son are one. Did Jesus ask for the wrong thing? Did he ask something impossible or impractical? Can this be considered a commandment?

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. (John 13:34-35)

Is this a commandment? Are we free to follow this commandment, and Jesus, or not, as we choose? Are we free to interpret this commandment to conform with a way of thought, or simply out of our sight so it won't bother us?

How are we to love one another? Is that open to interpretation? What does it mean to "love one another as I have loved you"? Was Jesus gay? Does it mean we are to like everyone indiscriminately? What are some other interpretations? Shouldn't we be open to suggestions? If we all interpret the bible, shouldn't we get them all on the table so we have a choice? No matter how ridiculous some may seem to us?

What about what Jesus says regarding the effect of loving one another? What's the correct interpretation of that? Surely He isn't referring to all men, is he? Do all men even care? Does he mean the whole known world will be saved by this knowledge? Or is it just a simple statement? That by our love for one another all men will know we are disciples of Jesus Christ? Or is being a disciple of a denomination what he meant, but we couldn't understand that until now?

And what is a disciple any way? The Greek word means a pupil or one who learns from another. To what extent is the one who loves one another a pupil of Christ? Indeed, who are Christians learning from? Christ or a denomination? Is that one and the same thing?

10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers.
12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.”
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? (1 Corinthians 1:10-13)

Come now Paul. Surely you jest. Don't you know that everything is open to interpretation, even the bible?
Oh wait. You're just talking about a particular church. So just in this church, the church in Corinth, this is applicable. Of course you don't expect it to be carried out to any degree, or anywhere else. Maybe just a little more unity than is evident right now. Let's not even bother with the rest of this chapter, and the next two. Has nothing to do with us. Especially this:

1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.
2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,
3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? (1 Corinthians 3:1-3)

What was I thinking? That has nothing to do with me or Christianity today. The most extreme form of division, denominationalism, exists today. And what exists is what exists. This is only about a particular church.

18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part,
19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 1 Corinthians 11:18-19

Oh Thank God. No need to understand that according context. It plainly says according to our interpretation that factions are OK. Necessary actually. So that the genuine may be recognized. Praise the Lord for denominations. He's given us such a wide variety to choose from. How good it is to live in the 21st century. Where we can not only interpret the bible, but spend our days looking for a denomination that agrees with our interpretations. Surely God should receive great glory for this blessing. And here is Paul turning upside down what Jesus said about unity and love. Nothing like a little progressive revelation. We can ignore the Old Testament and the Gospels. That sure makes for a lot less to read. I can read more Robert Parker.

1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called,
2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love,
3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:1-6)

What do you mean by that Paul? Who maintains the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace nowadays? First we need to determine, by interpretation, whether or not there is a Spirit or just some sort of wind, whether it refers to the Holy Spirit, or maybe to our human spirit. Many bible interpreters, the majority actually, say the human spirit is just the human mind or the higher part of the human mind. Whatever that means. Let's see. One body that we can't see. One Spirit that we can't see. One hope that is interpreted in about every way possible. One Lord that hasn't been around for a couple of millennia. One faith interpreted to mean the sum total of doctrinal belief. No telling how many of those there are. One baptism that manifests itself in at least three modes (how Trinitarian). One God and father of all that we can't see. So unity is in what? The greatest interpretation of all. In each and every denomination as a single unit of unity.

Do I need to go on Free? Do you see the point yet? Is there any way I can get through to you the damage interpretation and its product - denominationalism - is doing and has been doing in Christianity for hundreds, no, thousands of years? Can't you see that interpretation is not the way to follow anyone, let alone Jesus Christ? Or will you just stubbornly interpret your way into hell?

Hell's not such a bad place. Most of our friends will be there. It'll just be one endless party. How much suffering can that be? What difference will it make if God isn't there? Think how exciting all the intrigue will be? Not like we can be killed by it or anything. Or we'll just die, which is a hell (pun intended) of a lot more probable according to modern science. So says my brother.


Seemed good to me to start with the end of your post.
 

Jesse Stone

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Randy #729
Jesse asked?

Just out of curiosity, what is your interpretation of the seven Spirits of God?

Randy replied:

The Seven Thunders? Angels

Nothing literal about that.

You stated on earth Jesus was just a man. Care to clarify that thought as in the topic of "God with Us"?

Don't see that thread.
 

Jesse Stone

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JLB #730
Are you somehow trying to suggest Jesus was just a body.

The opposite actually.

Jesus made this clear and definitive statement -
before Abraham was, I AM
He was declaring that He Himself was in fact YHWH

I agree that the son existed before Abraham. But not that he equated himself here with YHWH. He spoke in the present tense, which wouldn't make any sense unless he was referring to existing before time itself. He's only saying he existed before there was an Abraham. That may seem like an interpretation. But I think it's implied by the tense used. Since the Jews knew of only one who existed in a timeless state like that, they assumed that Jesus was equating himself with that person. God. The Jews misunderstood Jesus yet again.
 

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JLB #710

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:5-11)

On earth Jesus Christ was just a man.

Regarding the form of God. If it means he was God, why didn't Paul just say "though he was God, he made himself nothing"? Instead of that long drawn out phrase "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped"? If he was God, he wouldn't have thought equality with God a thing to be grasped. The word translated grasped means seized as a prize. Not "something to keep hold of" as it is often interpreted to mean. Certainly not "as something to be used for His own advantage" as the HCSB translates it. Nor "something to be used for his own benefit." as the New Century Version translates it. Nor "something to cling to" as the New Living Translation translates it. Tradition never dies. If Jesus is God, he wouldn't have a need to seize something he already had.

Form of God in v. 6 is a reference to spirit, not Godhood. Like God the father, the son was spirit in form. Spirit in form until he was born in the likeness of men. The literal meaning of the Greek word. Then he was human in every way that it means to be human. That is, Jesus was a man. That's what the Greek word means in v. 8. Not just appearance as the NASB, NIV, and NKJV translates it. If just appearance, then Jesus only appeared to be human, but was not. That, as I remember, is heresy even to Trinitarians.

Satan thought equality with God was a thing to be grasped, seized as a prize. He wanted to be equal with God. Jesus, the generated or only begotten son of God, higher than any angel by generation and inheritance, but as a son lower than God the father, thought the opposite. Because of this, God has highly exalted him. God the father exalted him, as seen in v. 11. To the glory of God the father.
The context is very important, as it always is:

Php 2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,
Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
Php 2:3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
Php 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

Firstly, we see in verses 2-4 that the main point Paul is making is that they should be "of the same mind," "[doing] nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant then yourselves," looking "also to the interests of others." This is what Paul then expands on in verses 5-8, showing the humility of Christ. But this humility of Christ is the ultimate example precisely because he is God in the flesh.

Secondly, why is it that you say that verse 6 is "a reference to spirit," simply because Paul could have said "though he was God"? Using that same argument, why didn't Paul say "though he was a spirit" or "though he was in the form of angels"? What Paul says really only makes sense if Jesus was God. Indeed, if he wasn't God, what did he empty himself of? And how was it that he was able to empty himself?

Thirdly, that Jesus "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped," is best understood as his already being equal with God as not a thing to be held onto or used for the purposes of salvation, as a means of convincing or forcing men. To think that it means equality was something he didn't have and didn't think it something to be grasped, like Satan had tried to do, is not at all a showing of humility; it is of obedience, it is properly what not ought to be done. Humility is shown if he was equal with God (the Father) and didn't think it was something to be held onto or used for some advantage, so he let it go.

Fourthly, the above makes the most sense of his emptying of himself--that there was actually something needing to be emptied of. Notice that this is very much tied to his making "himself nothing," which is then explained by his "taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men." So he was something and became nothing, which is to say he was born in the "likeness of men". Even then, if he was a creature being made in the likeness of another creature, how is then possible to argue that he "made himself nothing"? Is man nothing? Are not all creatures nothing when compared to God?

There is a bit more that can be said but that is all I have time for. I think it is sufficient to show that Jesus was indeed God, that that is the only understanding that makes sense of the passage, a passage in which the ultimate humility is shown--God took on human flesh for the salvation of man.

P.S. I notice that you are interpreting again. :)
 

JLB

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JLB #730

I agree that the son existed before Abraham. But not that he equated himself here with YHWH. He spoke in the present tense, which wouldn't make any sense unless he was referring to existing before time itself. He's only saying he existed before there was an Abraham. That may seem like an interpretation. But I think it's implied by the tense used. Since the Jews knew of only one who existed in a timeless state like that, they assumed that Jesus was equating himself with that person. God. The Jews misunderstood Jesus yet again.

Maybe you missed what Jesus actually stated.

Maybe you missed the reaction to what He stated, by the Pharisee's.

Jesus made this clear and definitive statement -

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." 57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:56-59

He was declaring that He Himself was in fact YHWH.

Here is the Old Testament scripture that He is referring to -

1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." Genesis 17:1-2

The very same Lord spoke this statement through Zechariah -

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

The same Lord, YHWH that appeared to Abraham, is the same Lord who declared through the mouth of Zechariah, They will look on Me whom they pierced...

Is the same Lord who became flesh and declared to the pharisee's in John 8 -

Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." ... Then they took up stones to throw at Him;


Jesus is YHWH, The Lord God Almighty; The creator of heaven and earth. He is God who was manifested in the flesh.



JLB
 

Randy

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Randy #729


Nothing literal about that.



Don't see that thread.

What I know to be true. There is only One Holy Spirit.
There are seven angels before the throne of God. The seven eyes of the Lord to me would be those angels. Jesus is depicted with 7 horns/eyes. He was given authority over the angels of God so while its a assumption that the seven eyes of Lord are angels I feel it is the only reasonable one. The 2 witnesses (rev 11) and the 7 eyes of the Lord are also found in Zech 4.

This thread is about the trinity. You stated Jesus was just a man on earth. But Jesus wasn't alone. The Father is in Him.
 

WIP

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I think the tone of this thread needs to cool down. The sarcasm, arrogance, and personal attacks have gone far enough. It sounds like there's more effort in winning a contest than growing in faith and understanding.
 

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No? You think I'm biased about that too? Sour grapes because I can't be a Christian? That I'm just interpreting the bible against denominationalism?
Wow, you read way too much into what I said. What I said was a simple statement and in no way directed at you. You sure interpreted that incorrectly.
 

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Since the Holy Spirit has been brought up, lets look at what the Bible says (all from the ESV):

The Holy Spirit speaks, calls followers to certain work, gives gifts as he wills, and uses personal pronouns:

Act 8:29 And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go over and join this chariot."

Act 10:19 And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are looking for you.
Act 10:20 Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them."

Act 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

Act 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

Act 21:11 And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands and said, "Thus says the Holy Spirit, 'This is how the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'"

1Co 12:8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1Co 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

Only persons speak and use personal pronouns.

The Holy Spirit helps us, intercedes for us with groanings:

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.
Rom 8:27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Intercession demands personality.

The Holy Spirit searches and comprehends the depth and thoughts of God:

1Co 2:10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
1Co 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Only persons can know things.

The Holy Spirit can be grieved and angered:

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?


There is more that can be said but that is sufficient to show that the Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force but a person. None of the above can be said to be true of an impersonal force.

So who is the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father--Mark 13:11 and Matthew 10:19-20. Interestingly, in Luke's version of the same, Jesus says it will be him that give them the words to speak.

The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, is also the Spirit of Christ:

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.


So we see that the Holy Spirit is a person, yet not the Son nor the Father, and in such close communion that he is referred to as both the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of Jesus, among other names. Most certainly deity, equal in nature with God, yet not the Father nor the Son, and another reason why the doctrine of the Trinity makes the most sense of all that Scripture states about God.
 

Randy

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Since the Holy Spirit has been brought up, lets look at what the Bible says (all from the ESV):

The Holy Spirit speaks, calls followers to certain work, gives gifts as he wills, and uses personal pronouns:

Act 8:29 And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go over and join this chariot."

Act 10:19 And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are looking for you.
Act 10:20 Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them."

Act 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

Act 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

Act 21:11 And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands and said, "Thus says the Holy Spirit, 'This is how the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'"

1Co 12:8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1Co 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

Only persons speak and use personal pronouns.

The Holy Spirit helps us, intercedes for us with groanings:

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.
Rom 8:27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Intercession demands personality.

The Holy Spirit searches and comprehends the depth and thoughts of God:

1Co 2:10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
1Co 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Only persons can know things.

The Holy Spirit can be grieved and angered:

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?


There is more that can be said but that is sufficient to show that the Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force but a person. None of the above can be said to be true of an impersonal force.

So who is the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father--Mark 13:11 and Matthew 10:19-20. Interestingly, in Luke's version of the same, Jesus says it will be him that give them the words to speak.

The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, is also the Spirit of Christ:

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.


So we see that the Holy Spirit is a person, yet not the Son nor the Father, and in such close communion that he is referred to as both the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of Jesus, among other names. Most certainly deity, equal in nature with God, yet not the Father nor the Son, and another reason why the doctrine of the Trinity makes the most sense of all that Scripture states about God.


I believe the Holy Spirit acts on the will God. Father- Its His Spirit ; Son -Jesus has a place on His Fathers throne.

I get the impression Jesus is stating this (set apart..) via the Spirit. The Spirit speaks what He hears and in this function (appointment) Jesus is the head of the body of Christ.

While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."


Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Matt 10:20 "for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Father -I will place my spirit on Him (Jesus) and He shall proclaim justice to the nations-
Son - The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me...


There was no God formed before the Father nor will there be one after Him. God is Spirit . The Holy Spirit is proclaimed by the One on the throne as "His Spirit" Its the Fathers to give and take. Jesus by His authority can send the Spirit but He received the Spirit from the Father. The Fathers promise. The Father is the gardener. Jesus is our true vine.

The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him (Jesus)

Jesus - Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. (God with US through the Son) Hebrews 1:1-2

Jesus - Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me will live because of me.

Jesus never dies. Only the physical human body died on the cross. Jesus has indestructible life in Himself.

R.
 
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