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Proof of Trinity

By Grace

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correct. as in agreement with this site's 'owners'? about this, on the "about us" page for this site ::: copied
"We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him."

i.e. as is clear from Scripture, "ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, " - Yeshua is not Yhwh in other words.
and "where He (Yeshua) now intercedes for us who believe in Him" Yeshua intercedes for us, with Yhwh. really simple.
I am not sure of what you are saying here

Does this represent your view?
Jesus= the Father= Jesus
 

JLB

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correct. as in agreement with this site's 'owners'? about this, on the "about us" page for this site ::: copied
"We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him."

i.e. as is clear from Scripture, "ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, " - Yeshua is not Yhwh in other words.
and "where He (Yeshua) now intercedes for us who believe in Him" Yeshua intercedes for us, with Yhwh. really simple.

Why is Yeshua not YHWH.

I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one
John 17:11

and again -

Clearly YHWH speaking here.

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10


Why wouldn't the Only Begotten Son, not have the same name as His Father.

YHWH are the consonants of the Hebrew name of Joshua.

YHWH = yehowshuwa = Jesus


Hebrews 4:8 - KJV

8] For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.


Hebrews 4:8 – nkjv

8] For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.



JLB
 
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John 17:11 can be interpreted in more than one way. That is why there are differing translations of it:

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. - KJV.

Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. - NKJV.

I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep those you have given me true to your name, so that they may be one like us. - JB and NJB.

'I am to stay no longer in the world, but they are still in the world, and I am on my way to thee. Holy Father, protect by the power of thy name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are one. - NEB.

Zech. 12:10 is also disputed:

"...when they look upon him whom they have pierced" - RSV. Also in agreement with this rendering are NRSV; GNB; MLB; NAB (1970); NAB (1991); LB; Mo; AT; JB; NJB; NLV; BBE; and Byington. (ASV says in a footnote for "me" in Zech. 12:10: "According to some MSS. [manuscripts], `him'." Also see Rotherham footnote.)

But most important of all is John 19:37 (even in the KJV) where this scripture has been quoted by John! All translations show John here translating Zech. 12:10 as "They shall look upon him [or `the one'] whom they pierced." So we have this Apostle and inspired Bible writer telling us plainly (and undisputed even by trinitarian scholars) that Zechariah 12:10 should read: "They shall look upon him (not `me')." Therefore, Jehovah is speaking in Zech. 12:10 of someone else who will be pierced - not Himself!


As for Joshua/Jesus, Yehoshua does not have the Hebrew character for the second ‘H’ in it. Instead the ‘sh’ sound is actually a single ‘W’-like letter called shin.

Furthermore, since the name is shared by at least two men in scripture, we shouldn’t understand it as being another name for YHWH.
 

JLB

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John 17:11 can be interpreted in more than one way. That is why there are differing translations of it:

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. - KJV.

Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. - NKJV.

I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep those you have given me true to your name, so that they may be one like us. - JB and NJB.

'I am to stay no longer in the world, but they are still in the world, and I am on my way to thee. Holy Father, protect by the power of thy name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are one. - NEB.

Zech. 12:10 is also disputed:

"...when they look upon him whom they have pierced" - RSV. Also in agreement with this rendering are NRSV; GNB; MLB; NAB (1970); NAB (1991); LB; Mo; AT; JB; NJB; NLV; BBE; and Byington. (ASV says in a footnote for "me" in Zech. 12:10: "According to some MSS. [manuscripts], `him'." Also see Rotherham footnote.)

But most important of all is John 19:37 (even in the KJV) where this scripture has been quoted by John! All translations show John here translating Zech. 12:10 as "They shall look upon him [or `the one'] whom they pierced." So we have this Apostle and inspired Bible writer telling us plainly (and undisputed even by trinitarian scholars) that Zechariah 12:10 should read: "They shall look upon him (not `me')." Therefore, Jehovah is speaking in Zech. 12:10 of someone else who will be pierced - not Himself!


As for Joshua/Jesus, Yehoshua does not have the Hebrew character for the second ‘H’ in it. Instead the ‘sh’ sound is actually a single ‘W’-like letter called shin.

Furthermore, since the name is shared by at least two men in scripture, we shouldn’t understand it as being another name for YHWH.

Jesus is YHWH.

He has the same name as His Father.

The name above every name.

BothJohn 17:11 and Zechariah 12:10 substantiate this truth.

JLB
 
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John 17:11 can be interpreted in more than one way. That is why there are differing translations of it:

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. - KJV.

Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. - NKJV.

I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep those you have given me true to your name, so that they may be one like us. - JB and NJB.

'I am to stay no longer in the world, but they are still in the world, and I am on my way to thee. Holy Father, protect by the power of thy name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are one. - NEB.

Zech. 12:10 is also disputed:

"...when they look upon him whom they have pierced" - RSV. Also in agreement with this rendering are NRSV; GNB; MLB; NAB (1970); NAB (1991); LB; Mo; AT; JB; NJB; NLV; BBE; and Byington. (ASV says in a footnote for "me" in Zech. 12:10: "According to some MSS. [manuscripts], `him'." Also see Rotherham footnote.)

But most important of all is John 19:37 (even in the KJV) where this scripture has been quoted by John! All translations show John here translating Zech. 12:10 as "They shall look upon him [or `the one'] whom they pierced." So we have this Apostle and inspired Bible writer telling us plainly (and undisputed even by trinitarian scholars) that Zechariah 12:10 should read: "They shall look upon him (not `me')." Therefore, Jehovah is speaking in Zech. 12:10 of someone else who will be pierced - not Himself!


As for Joshua/Jesus, Yehoshua does not have the Hebrew character for the second ‘H’ in it. Instead the ‘sh’ sound is actually a single ‘W’-like letter called shin.

Furthermore, since the name is shared by at least two men in scripture, we shouldn’t understand it as being another name for YHWH.
Jesus is YHWH.

He has the same name as His Father.

The name above every name.

BothJohn 17:11 and Zechariah 12:10 substantiate this truth.

JLB
 

By Grace

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John 17:11 can be interpreted in more than one way. That is why there are differing translations of it:
Of course there are different translations of every verse in the Bible! Some are in French, some are in Spanish etc. Here are some examples:

ESV | ‎Jn 17:11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
‎‎

1901 ASV | ‎Jn 17:11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
be one even as We are.
‎‎
NIV | ‎Jn 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
‎‎
NIV84 | ‎Jn 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.​

In my opinion, I find no discernible difference between them, and in the verses you pasted below. Each of them have Jesus addressing Someone other than Himself, who is also God

But that is not the issue that needs addressing.

The primary issue is that because this represents the High Priestly Prayer of Jesus Christ, we need to treat this special; these are the actual words of Jesus, therefore they can not be anything other than 100% true.

Second, we must determine if there any variants in the current mss that we have available that would warrant different, contrasting translations, as you suggest. There are no other Greek manuscripts known in the world that suggest that there is any difference to support a position other than what these cited English translations represent. The Critical Apparatus for the Nestle Aland version, 28th edition cites a word variant:

καθώς [kathos /kath·oce/] adv. From 2596 and 5613; GK 2777; 182 occurrences; AV translates as “as” 138 times, “even as” 36 times, “according as” four times, “when” once, “according to” once, “how” once, and “as well as + 2532” once. 1 according as. 1A just as, even as. 1B in proportion as, in the degree that. 2 since, seeing that, agreeably to the fact that. 3 when, after that.
Strong, J. (2001). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon.

So what we end up with is a RANGE of possible meanings of a particular word when we look at its context.
.

Zech. 12:10 is also disputed:

"...when they look upon him whom they have pierced" - RSV. Also in agreement with this rendering are NRSV; GNB; MLB; NAB (1970); NAB (1991); LB; Mo; AT; JB; NJB; NLV; BBE; and Byington. (ASV says in a footnote for "me" in Zech. 12:10: "According to some MSS. [manuscripts], `him'." Also see Rotherham footnote.)

Can you please supply the reference book that you used for this quote above?
Without providing the annotation, and crediting the source, you make it seem that the passage is your own. that is a big no-no here because the powers that be here take a dim view of plagiarism. here is what the tos says:

2.6: Please keep posts down to a respectable length and provide source and/or links for your info. We want to respect copyrighted material. Be sure at minimum to cite your source and keep all posts in compliance with Fair Use copyright law. Plus, you stand a better chance of getting your post read if it contains a link with an excerpt from source that's relative to your point. (emphasis added)

Information on proper source acknowledgement and fair use here:
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/731/1/

Please tell us where this is mistranslated, as you allege:

ESV | ‎Zec 12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.​


But most important of all is John 19:37 (even in the KJV) where this scripture has been quoted by John! All [English] translations show John here translating Zech. 12:10 as "They shall look upon him [or `the one'] whom they pierced." So we have this Apostle and inspired Bible writer telling us plainly (and undisputed even by trinitarian scholars) that Zechariah 12:10 should read: "They shall look upon him (not `me')." Therefore, Jehovah is speaking in Zech. 12:10 of someone else who will be pierced - not Himself!


As for Joshua/Jesus, Yehoshua does not have the Hebrew character for the second ‘H’ in it. Instead the ‘sh’ sound is actually a single ‘W’-like letter called shin.

Furthermore, since the name is shared by at least two men in scripture, we shouldn’t understand it as being another name for YHWH.

Have you looked at the Septuagint (LXX) to see what it says? It is well-known that that is what many of the Apostles quoted.

What you REALLY need is not to look at English translations to prove your point, but you need to research using the original languages. Your allegations are based on English translations and not on original language exegesis. That is because you make many allegations, but do not supply proofs for your allegations, and that is why differing English translations are insufficient to make your point.

That is why you need to do more research, and see for yourself what is in the original languages. It seems to me that you are taking the words of a select few as true, and I believe that you need to widen your horizions theologically.
 

JLB

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John 17:11 can be interpreted in more than one way. That is why there are differing translations of it:

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. - KJV.

Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. - NKJV.

I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep those you have given me true to your name, so that they may be one like us. - JB and NJB.

'I am to stay no longer in the world, but they are still in the world, and I am on my way to thee. Holy Father, protect by the power of thy name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are one. - NEB.

Zech. 12:10 is also disputed:

"...when they look upon him whom they have pierced" - RSV. Also in agreement with this rendering are NRSV; GNB; MLB; NAB (1970); NAB (1991); LB; Mo; AT; JB; NJB; NLV; BBE; and Byington. (ASV says in a footnote for "me" in Zech. 12:10: "According to some MSS. [manuscripts], `him'." Also see Rotherham footnote.)

But most important of all is John 19:37 (even in the KJV) where this scripture has been quoted by John! All translations show John here translating Zech. 12:10 as "They shall look upon him [or `the one'] whom they pierced." So we have this Apostle and inspired Bible writer telling us plainly (and undisputed even by trinitarian scholars) that Zechariah 12:10 should read: "They shall look upon him (not `me')." Therefore, Jehovah is speaking in Zech. 12:10 of someone else who will be pierced - not Himself!


As for Joshua/Jesus, Yehoshua does not have the Hebrew character for the second ‘H’ in it. Instead the ‘sh’ sound is actually a single ‘W’-like letter called shin.

Furthermore, since the name is shared by at least two men in scripture, we shouldn’t understand it as being another name for YHWH.


Are saying that the translation you have selected completely nullifies the translation of the NIV?

11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.
John 17:11

What name has power to heal the sick and to cast out devils and raise the dead? Jesus!

The name above every name.

Who gave The Lord Jesus His Name?

Where did this name come from?

Is this the name of the Father or the Son or Both the Father and the Son?

My son has the exact same name as me.

Why wouldn't a Father give His only begotten Son, His own name?


JLB
 

JLB

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Teddy said -

As for Joshua/Jesus, Yehoshua does not have the Hebrew character for the second ‘H’ in it. Instead the ‘sh’ sound is actually a single ‘W’-like letter called shin.

The translators of the King James Bible and the New King James Bible seem to differ with your translation -

Why would they translate one as Jesus and one as Joshua if the weren't the same word.


Hebrews 4:8 - KJV


8] For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.


Hebrews 4:8 – NKJV


8] For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.



Strong's Number: 03091
Original WordWord Origin
[wXwhyfrom (03068) and (03467)
Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
Yehowshuwa`None
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
yeh-ho-shoo'-ah
Definition
Joshua or Jehoshua = "Jehovah is salvation" n pr m
  1. son of Nun of the tribe of Ephraim and successor to Moses as the leader of the children of Israel; led the conquest of Canaan
  2. a resident of Beth-shemesh on whose land the Ark of the Covenant came to a stop after the Philistines returned it
  3. son of Jehozadak and high priest after the restoration
  4. governor of Jerusalem under king Josiah who gave his name to a gate of the city of Jerusalem



YHWH = yehowshuwa = Jesus


JLB
 
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I am sorry if one of my posts (removed above) has caused anyone offense.

Zech. 12:10 is also disputed:

"...when they look upon him whom they have pierced" - RSV. Also in agreement with this rendering are NRSV; GNB; MLB; NAB (1970); NAB (1991); LB; Mo; AT; JB; NJB; NLV; BBE; and Byington. (ASV says in a footnote for "me" in Zech. 12:10: "According to some MSS. [manuscripts], `him'." Also see Rotherham footnote.)

Can you please supply the reference book that you used for this quote above?

The paragraph is my own. The source of the beginning quote is the Revised Standard Version. I have looked up all the other references in that paragraph including the ASV footnote.
 
H

His_nee (Jeff)

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I go out and I come in in Yeshua's Name , in His Name cast out demons and heal the sick. So simple really. Yeshua taught us disciples to do this and it is recorded forever in His Word. Yeshua came in His Father's Name, and did all that Abba told Him to do and destroyed the works of hasatan. Abba, Yeshua, paul, peter, john, james and I are all abiding in union as one by His doing by Yhwh's plan and purpose and faith and grace and faithfulness in Yeshua Messiah.
This doesn't make Yeshua me, nor paul me, nor me peter or john.... any more than Abba is Yeshua, though as His Decree clearly says, we are one.
 

By Grace

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I am sorry if one of my posts (removed above) has caused anyone offense.
The paragraph is my own. The source of the beginning quote is the Revised Standard Version. I have looked up all the other references in that paragraph including the ASV footnote.

Since it is your own, could you please explain what you mean with these references?
GNB;
MLB;
NAB
(1970);
NAB
(1991);
LB;
Mo;
AT;
NLV;
BBE;

Byington.
Also see Rotherham footnote.)

More important, I fail to see the point you are attempting to make.

Thanks for your reply
 
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Since it is your own, could you please explain what you mean with these references?
GNB;
MLB;
NAB
(1970);
NAB
(1991);
LB;
Mo;
AT;
NLV;
BBE;

Byington.
Also see Rotherham footnote.)

These are standard abbreviations for Good News Bible; Modern Language Bible; New American Bible; Living Bible; Moffatt’s translation; An American Translation; New Life Version; Bible in Basic English; Steven Byington’s translation (The Bible in Living English); Rotherham’s translation (The Emphasized Bible).

“More important, I fail to see the point you are attempting to make.”

Thank you for your interest.

In Reply #766 above I am responding to the interpretation of Zech. 12:10 as saying that God is saying about Himself: “they look upon me whom they have pierced” and that this means Jesus is God.

I am pointing out that this is a disputed translation. That some Trinitarian scholars believe it should read, instead, “they look upon him (or ‘the one’) whom they have pierced.”

Furthermore, John’s quotation of this scripture shows conclusively that it should read “look upon him” not “look upon me (God).”
 

By Grace

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These are standard abbreviations for Good News Bible; Modern Language Bible; New American Bible; Living Bible; Moffatt’s translation; An American Translation; New Life Version; Bible in Basic English; Steven Byington’s translation (The Bible in Living English); Rotherham’s translation (The Emphasized Bible).

Thank you for your interest.

In Reply #766 above I am responding to the interpretation of Zech. 12:10 as saying that God is saying about Himself: “they look upon me whom they have pierced” and that this means Jesus is God.

I am pointing out that this is a disputed translation. That some Trinitarian scholars believe it should read, instead, “they look upon him (or ‘the one’) whom they have pierced.”

Furthermore, John’s quotation of this scripture shows conclusively that it should read “look upon him” not “look upon me (God).”

Here is stuff from the LXX (Septuagint) that is germane to your argument. The question that is really important is whether you will accept original language sources, or only your favored authors?
πρός |με
πρός | ἐγώ
P | RP1AS
to, towards | I
to | me
Tan, R., & deSilva, D. A., Logos Bible Software. (2009). The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear Septuagint (Zec 12:10).
Sorry for the jumble. It looked great in the draft!

πρός (pros) is a preposition, and it determines a direction of the verb, "look" So it is therefore to, or towards.

με (me) is a relative pronoun, first person, accusative and singular so it is not I for that is a personal pronoun, it is me. It is also singular, so it is not "we", and the case of the pronoun is accusative so it receives the action of the verb, "looked"

In your focusing on the pronoun, you overlook the most important parts of the verse, IMHO.

κατωρχήσαντο
κατορχέομαι
VAMI3P
dance in triumph over
they danced triumphantly
Tan, R., & deSilva, D. A., Logos Bible Software. (2009). The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear Septuagint (Zec 12:10).

This is a prophecy about the fallen angels who rejoice at the death of Jesus on the cross who are almost dancing on the tomb where the body of Jesus was laid.

πρωτοτόκῳ
πρωτότοκος
JDSM
first-born
a first-born.

This is an adjective, meaning it modifies the subject of the verse, in this case it is the pronoun με (me) meaning me, and it is in the same number as the subject, singular, and the same gender of the subject but the CASE if the noun is different, it is dative, and it is the recipient of the action of the main verb "looked"

But the most important part of the verse is the word it self, The word is a compound word, made up of two Greek words. The first word is πρωτο and we get our English word "prototype" meaning the first of its kind.

The second word that is used here is τοκος (tokos) meaning born. The term "theotolos" Θεός + τοκος is the same name by which we call Mary "the bearer of God (Jesus) but not "the Mother of God"

This same word is applies to Jesus several times in Colossians 1

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;​

So what Paul was doing here was making THREE references (SEE BOLD BLUE) to Zechariah, and it was written at least 400+ years before Paul could make a reference

As a result of looking at the words in the Septuagint, and in Colossians, we can see that that Jesus=/= the Father, and that it was not "coincidence" that the Jewish scholars who penned that word from the Hebrew into Greek during the time of the 400 years of silence were making a reference to their Messiah, but did not know that.

From that which I researched, I cannot find any support for your position. If you could do as I did with those verses and find something different, I would like to see it.
 
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I suggest you reread #766 above.

As for the Septuagint:

“10 καὶ ἐκχεῶ ἐπὶ τὸν οἶκον Δαυὶδ καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς κατοικοῦντας ῾Ιερουσαλὴμ πνεῦμα χάριτος καὶ οἰκτιρμοῦ, καὶ ἐπιβλέψονται πρός με ἀνθ᾿ ὧν κατωρχήσαντο καὶ κόψονται ἐπ᾿ αὐτὸν κοπετόν, ὡς ἐπ᾿ ἀγαπητῷ, καὶ ὀδυνηθήσονται ὀδύνην ὡς ἐπὶ τῷ πρωτοτόκῳ.”

“10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and compassion: and they shall look upon me, because they have mocked [me], and they shall make lamentation for him, as for a beloved [friend], and they shall grieve intensely, as for a firstborn [son].” - Greek and translation from
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=41&page=12

Yes, the OT Greek Septuagint uses "me" (in existing copies, at least - 4th century A.D. and later), but it is significantly different from the Hebrew text:

"They shall look upon me, because they have mocked me, and they shall make lamentation for him, as for a beloved [friend], and they shall grieve intensely, as for a firstborn [son]." - Zech. 12:10, Septuagint, Zondervan, 1976 printing.

In other words: (1) they will look upon God whom they have mocked [not "pierced"] as their judgment arrives and (2) they will mourn Christ. (Edited and removed for declaring Christ is "not the same God" ToS 2.1. Obadiah)

(Edited and removed, denying the trinity, violating the Statement of Faith. Obadiah)


But most important of all is John 19:37 (even in the KJV) where this scripture has been quoted by John! All translations show John here translating Zech. 12:10 as “They shall look upon him [or ‘the one’] whom they pierced.” So we have this Apostle and inspired Bible writer telling us plainly (and undisputed even by trinitarian scholars) that Zechariah 12:10 should read: “They shall look upon him (not ‘me’).” Therefore, (Edited and removed for declaring Christ is "not the same God" ToS 2.1. Obadiah)
 
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Knotical

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Though there might be some verses that are disputed in regards to Jesus being part of the Trinity, John 1:1 is quite clear and does refer to Jesus and God being one and the same. There is no question Jesus is God, and thus part of the Trinity.
 

th1b.taylor

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Though there might be some verses that are disputed in regards to Jesus being part of the Trinity, John 1:1 is quite clear and does refer to Jesus and God being one and the same. There is no question Jesus is God, and thus part of the Trinity.
I agree, completely, that Jesus is the Second Person of the Divine Triune God and as much as the One Goders and the Modalists may dispute the Trinity, they labor in vain.

But, and this is huge, there is no physical, scientifically sustainable proof of God and God meant it to be that way. I have, long now, used John 1:1-3 to prove to Believers that Jesus is the God of creation but this will not work for the non-believer. If, and only if, we hold the Bible to be the Word of God, by faith, then it proves God but first, we must have Faith, the Faith God imparts to every one of us to deal with as we will.

God does not save us because, as James explains it, our works but rather our faith causes us to work for God to do righteous works. To attempt to prove God to anyone that has perverted their faith is a silly endeavor and Jesus set the example we are to follow before He was murdered on the cross. Jesus instructed those He sent out, two by two, to kick the dust from their feet in testimony against those that will not hear. We, His Bond Servants must follow and give up our ministries, watch to see where He is working and move to join in with what He is doing.

May God bless each of us with His wisdom.
 

Chopper

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I agree, completely, that Jesus is the Second Person of the Divine Triune God and as much as the One Goders and the Modalists may dispute the Trinity, they labor in vain.

But, and this is huge, there is no physical, scientifically sustainable proof of God and God meant it to be that way. I have, long now, used John 1:1-3 to prove to Believers that Jesus is the God of creation but this will not work for the non-believer. If, and only if, we hold the Bible to be the Word of God, by faith, then it proves God but first, we must have Faith, the Faith God imparts to every one of us to deal with as we will.

God does not save us because, as James explains it, our works but rather our faith causes us to work for God to do righteous works. To attempt to prove God to anyone that has perverted their faith is a silly endeavor and Jesus set the example we are to follow before He was murdered on the cross. Jesus instructed those He sent out, two by two, to kick the dust from their feet in testimony against those that will not hear. We, His Bond Servants must follow and give up our ministries, watch to see where He is working and move to join in with what He is doing.

May God bless each of us with His wisdom.

Hey you old Bible Thumper, I'm glad to see, in spite of the trial by fire (pain), you are still right there hitting home runs in theology. :clap Your statement, "We, His Bond Servants must follow and give up our ministries, watch to see where He is working and move to join in with what He is doing." is very profound and not understood by so many Christians who are under the gun to go out and be a part of the evangelization program of their local church. Being a fellow who appreciates Calvin's theology, I simply ask a person that I suspect that the Holy Spirit might be drawing him/her to Jesus, I simply ask "Have you been thinking about God lately?" Their answer is my next move.

Thanks for sharing the wisdom that the LORD has given you. Bravo!
 

th1b.taylor

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Hey you old Bible Thumper, I'm glad to see, in spite of the trial by fire (pain), you are still right there hitting home runs in theology. :clap Your statement, "We, His Bond Servants must follow and give up our ministries, watch to see where He is working and move to join in with what He is doing." is very profound and not understood by so many Christians who are under the gun to go out and be a part of the evangelization program of their local church. Being a fellow who appreciates Calvin's theology, I simply ask a person that I suspect that the Holy Spirit might be drawing him/her to Jesus, I simply ask "Have you been thinking about God lately?" Their answer is my next move.

Thanks for sharing the wisdom that the LORD has given you. Bravo!
Thanks Chopper but, as you know, He didn't give it to me to hide under my bed.
 
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Though there might be some verses that are disputed in regards to Jesus being part of the Trinity, John 1:1 is quite clear and does refer to Jesus and God being one and the same. There is no question Jesus is God, and thus part of the Trinity.

It is far from being "quite clear" as translated in most Bibles. Here is a condensed version of my exhaustive study of John 1:1c - http://www.christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/jws-just-came-to-my-door.52019/page-2

See Lessons A-E.
 
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