What's new
ChristianForums.net

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses

Proof of Trinity

Joined
Jul 10, 2011
Messages
293
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
What I mean is that you have stated that you believe Jesus is God by agreeing to the TOS. You couldn't have the yes marked by your name as being a Christian if you had not.

(Removed, ToS 2.2,: No active promotion of other Faiths is allowed: You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than Biblical and historical Christianity" Obadiah)

………………………………....
(Removed, ToS 2.2,: No active promotion of other Faiths is allowed: You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than Biblical and historical Christianity" Obadiah)

If others believe otherwise that is their right and merely their opinion.

(Removed, contradiction of Statement of Faith by one who agreed with it in order to join and declare themselves a Christian. "We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Obadiah.)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

childeye

Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
6,291
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
(Removed, ToS 2.2,: No active promotion of other Faiths is allowed: You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than Biblical and historical Christianity" Obadiah)

………………………………....
(Removed, ToS 2.2,: No active promotion of other Faiths is allowed: You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than Biblical and historical Christianity" Obadiah)

If others believe otherwise that is their right and merely their opinion.

(Removed, contradiction of Statement of Faith by one who agreed with it in order to join and declare themselves a Christian. "We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Obadiah.)
Most important is the Christ in Christianity. This has much to do with the Trinity in that Jesus is the knowledge of God's person presented in His Christ, who shows a Love that would sacrifice himself for torture and death so as to save those who are lesser than Himself, even the unrighteous.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Free

Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2003
Messages
13,677
Gender
Male
Fine, how about any of these words in lieu of created?
  1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
  2. to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
    1. of events
    • to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
      1. of men appearing in public
    • to be made, finished
      1. of miracles, to be performed, wrought
    • to become, be made
If any of those words imply that there was a time when the Son did not exist, then no, none of them will do.
 

jeff77

Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2012
Messages
2,188
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
JWs certainly believe they are Christian, and they are so defined by many others (some Trinitarians included):
Jehovah's Witnesses are a Christian denomination with many beliefs that stand out from mainstream Christianity.”
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2001/06/What-Jehovahs-Witnesses-Believe.aspx

………………………………....
“Jehovah's Witnesses is a millenarian restorationist Christian denomination with nontrinitaian beliefs distinct from mainstream Christianity.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses


If others believe otherwise that is their right and merely their opinion.

If belief in the trinity is truly necessary for salvation, then this site (and some others) should be presenting the necessary debate to save such ‘mistaken’ Christians who rely on careful examination of the scriptures for their belief in the true God as the Father alone - John 17:3,1 New English Bible.
If JW's believe that they are Christians then why do they keep coming to my house to try to convert me knowing from previous visits that I am already a Christian?
 

chessman

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
4,653
Gender
Male
What I mean is that you have stated that you believe Jesus is God by agreeing to the TOS. You couldn't have the yes marked by your name as being a Christian if you had not.
Plus teddy trueblood is trying to argue that the Bible has been mistranslated into a "trinitarian Bible" when in fact in its original languages it was Trinitarian. All one has to do is read what the Apostles' students had to say about Jesus being God-always to see that the original texts were in fact Trinitarian. Take what they said about John 1 and compare it to what TT says about it, for example:

Trinitarian comments made by the ECF’s using John 1:

prosper in all things whatsoever ye do_ in flesh and spirit, by faith and by
love, in the Son and Father and in the Spirit, in the beginning and in the end
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-magnesians-lightfoot.html
Very properly, then, did he say, "In the beginning was the Word," for He was in the Son; "and the Word was with God," for He was the beginning; "and the Word was God," of course, for that which is begotten of God is God.
John really does say is this: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us; and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
Irenaeus of Lyons, Book I, Chapter VIII.-How the Valentinians Pervert the Scriptures to Support Their Own Pious Opinions.
The disciple of the Lord therefore desiring to put an end to all such doctrines, and to establish the rule of truth in the Church, that there is one Almighty God, who made all things by His Word, both visible and invisible; showing at the same time, that by the Word, through whom God made the creation, He also bestowed salvation on the men included in the creation; thus commenced His teaching in the Gospel: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made. What was made was life in Him, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not." "All things," he says, "were made by Him; "therefore in "all things" this creation of ours is [included]

Others consider Him to have been manifested as a transfigured man; but they maintain Him to have been neither born nor to have become incarnate; whilst others [hold] that He did not assume a human form at all, but that, as a dove, He did descend upon that Jesus who was born from Mary. Therefore the Lord's disciple, pointing them all out as false witnesses, says, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." …
For that according to John relates His original, effectual, and glorious generation from the Father, thus declaring, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Also, "all things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made." For this reason, too, is that Gospel full of all confidence, for such is His person.
Irenaeus of Lyons, Book III, Chapter XI-Proofs in Continuation, Extracted from St. John's Gospel. The Gospels are Four in Number, Neither More Nor Less
John said: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." And in continuation he says, "And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the Only-begotten by the Father, full of grace and truth." He thus plainly points out to those willing to hear, that is, to those having ears, that there is one God, the Father over all, and one Word of God, who is through all, by whom all things have been made; and that this world belongs to Him, and was made by Him, according to the Father's will, and not by angels; nor by apostasy, defect, and ignorance; nor by any power of Prunicus, whom certain of them also call "the Mother; "nor by any other maker of the world ignorant of the Father.
Irenaeus of Lyons, Book V, Chapter XVIII.-God the Father and His Word Have Formed All Created Things (Which They Use) by Their Own Power and Wisdom, Not Out of Defect or Ignorance. The Son of God, Who Received All Power from the Father, Would Otherwise Never Have Taken Flesh Upon Him.
For before anything came into being He had Him as a counsellor, being His own mind and thought. But when God wished to make all that He determined on, He begot this Word, uttered, the first-born of all creation, not Himself being emptied of the Word [Reason], but having begotten Reason, and always conversing with His Reason. And hence the holy writings teach us, and all the spirit-bearing [inspired] men, one of whom, John, says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God," showing that at first God was alone, and the Word in Him. Then he says, "The Word was God; all things came into existence through Him; and apart from Him not one thing came into existence." The Word, then, being God
THEOPHILUS TO AUTOLYCUS, BOOK II, CHAP. XXII.--WHY GOD IS SAID TO HAVE WALKED.
You have, then, God's promise; you have His love: become partaker of His grace. And do not suppose the song of salvation to be new, as a vessel or a house is new. For "before the morning star it was;" 'and "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Error seems old, but truth seems a new thing. … But before the foundation of the world were we, who, because destined to be in Him, pre-existed in the eye of God before,--we the rational creatures of the Word of God, on whose account we date from the beginning; for "in the beginning was the Word." Well, inasmuch as the Word was from the first, He was and is the divine source of all things; but inasmuch as He has now assumed the name Christ, consecrated of old, and worthy of power, he has been called by me the New Song. This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man--the Author of all blessings to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life eternal. For, according to that inspired apostle of the Lord, "the grace of God which bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us, that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for the blessed hope, and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."
Clement of Alexandria, EXHORTATION TO THE HEATHEN, CHAP. I.--EXHORTATION TO ABANDON THE IMPIOUS MYSTERIES OF IDOLATRY FOR THE ADORATION OF THE DIVINE WORD AND GOD THE FATHER.
But nothing exists, the cause of whose existence is not supplied by God. Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one--that is, God. For He has said, "In the beginning the Word was in God, and the Word was God." If then He hates none of the things which He has made, it follows that He loves them. Much more than the rest, and with reason, will He love man, the noblest of all objects created by Him, and a God-loving being. Therefore God is loving; consequently the Word is loving.
Clement of Alexandria, THE INSTRUCTOR, CHAP. VIII.--AGAINST THOSE WHO THINK THAT WHAT IS JUST IS NOT GOOD.
 

childeye

Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
6,291
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
If any of those words imply that there was a time when the Son did not exist, then no, none of them will do.
These words all imply that there was a time on earth when the Word had not yet been made into the flesh that is the Christ. I got them from the blue letter lexicon of the bible.

The Christ is the Word "made" flesh. The trinity refers to the Christ as both the son of God and the son of man. This means as pertains to the Christ, the Word "made" flesh, that the Word was not flesh at some point in time before he was made flesh. This is therefore an argument in semantics.
.
 
Last edited:

Free

Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2003
Messages
13,677
Gender
Male
These words all imply that there was a time on earth when the Word had not yet been made into the flesh that is the Christ. I got them from the blue letter lexicon of the bible.

The Christ is the Word "made" flesh. The trinity refers to the Christ as both the son of God and the son of man. This means as pertains to the Christ, the Word "made" flesh, that the Word was not flesh at some point in time before he was made flesh. This is therefore an argument in semantics.
.
Once again you are not understanding what is being said. The Son has always existed, whether as the Word or in human flesh. He either is God (the Son) and creator, as the Bible states, or he is not God and a mere creature, as Arius believed.

This is not at all about semantics.
 

childeye

Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
6,291
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Once again you are not understanding what is being said. The Son has always existed, whether as the Word or in human flesh. He either is God (the Son) and creator, as the Bible states, or he is not God and a mere creature, as Arius believed.

This is not all about semantics.
I've read Arius's letter to Eusebius. In all honesty, I don't see Arius claiming what you have said. In fact he indicates that he was being persecuted by people who claimed what you are claiming. He also indicates he is being misconstrued.

The Son has always existed, whether as the Word or in human flesh. He either is God (the Son) and creator, as the Bible states, or he is not God and a mere creature,
What you state as either or, is a false dichotomy. Why Can't Jesus be both the expression of God, and yet born flesh and blood, just like you and me? We are talking Spirit here. Another thing, you say Jesus is the Creator rather than God's means and purpose of creation. Note the bible says all things were made by him as pertaining to the term "The Word". If I maintain that the Word is the means and purpose of all creation, then the word "by" would imply this. These are the usage of the word "by" from the blue letter bible lexicon taken from John. They imply the Word is the means and purpose of creation not the Creator who spoke the Word.
  1. through
    1. of place
    2. with
    3. in
  2. of time
    1. throughout
    2. during
    • of means
      1. by
      2. by the means of
    • through
    1. the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
    2. by reason of
    3. on account of
    4. because of for this reason
    5. therefore
    6. on this account
 

jasonc

Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Messages
40,242
Christian
Yes
childeye, the logical conclusion if that arius is right then a jw is correct that jesus was a mere angel. they do think that. an angel is a son of god, he can be messenger of god.
 

childeye

Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
6,291
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
childeye, the logical conclusion if that arius is right then a jw is correct that jesus was a mere angel. they do think that. an angel is a son of god, he can be messenger of god.
Jason, I'd rather that you not lump the Jw's in with Arius. I don't know what Jw's believe. It only complicates the discussion. I am comfortable speaking about Arius, since we have the letter to Eusebius saying what Arius believes from his own mouth. I didn't say Arius is right or wrong. In misunderstandings both sides can be both right and wrong. Arius is simply claiming that the Father sired the son according to scripture and common sense. When he speaks of the divine nature in the Christ without any darkness, he is saying this is God's son.

However, we see him speaking against those who say begotten does not mean there was a time when he didn't exist. That might be true in the sense that temporal terms such as Father and son, don't hold meaning in the eternal realm.

I feel I have already shown that Jesus is the message not the messenger.
 

jasonc

Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Messages
40,242
Christian
Yes
Jason, I'd rather that you not lump the Jw's in with Arius. I don't know what Jw's believe. It only complicates the discussion. I am comfortable speaking about Arius, since we have the letter to Eusebius saying what Arius believes from his own mouth. I didn't say Arius is right or wrong. In misunderstandings both sides can be both right and wrong. Arius is simply claiming that the Father sired the son according to scripture and common sense. When he speaks of the divine nature in the Christ without any darkness, he is saying this is God's son.

However, we see him speaking against those who say begotten does not mean there was a time when he didn't exist. That might be true in the sense that temporal terms such as Father and son, don't hold meaning in the eternal realm.

I feel I have already shown that Jesus is the message not the messenger.
I am a former jw, raised in that cult and still remember the foundation. yes what arius said is exactly what the jw's teach. jesus isn't coeternal and didn't become the son until the fleshly incarnation. you quote that. again, jesus could be an angel and fit that right there. is jesus listed by name in the tanach? no he isn't. he is in shadows in that angel unto the Lord is believed to be a preincarnate. see the confusion?

first begotten in greek can mean preeminent as does in Hebraic thought. since im my dads firstborn. of all the kids I bear his nature the most. that also means im premimment. but with Christ that doesn't mean god created him. to sire? to birth, to have sex with a woman to create. sorry its not semantics. words mean things. if say I hate you, I can mean only that. I hate you(in English) not I love you less or I don't love you but like you. given that its serious and not a jest as often is said in modern american culture

and on sire. it means to beget, to use as in beasts. that dictionary is based on kjv English and common usage of that day from a Christian usage. so that is why I choose it.http://sorabji.com/1828/words/s/sire.html
 

childeye

Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
6,291
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
yes what arius said is exactly what the jw's teach.
Sorry, but I can only honestly comment on what I see in Arius's writings at least what's left of them.

jesus isn't coeternal and didn't become the son until the fleshly incarnation. you quote that.
I see the term "son" as a temporal term, that by definition comes after the Father. That's why John starts out with "in the beginning was the Word". He uses this term "Word" instead of son. And we have no business saying or assuming he meant to say son instead of the Word. That's why I believe Arius says he is not unbegotten, even because John says Jesus was the only begotten son, and not the begotten Word.

Here in his words is Arius's description of prior to being made flesh. but that he is subsisting in will and intention before time and before the ages, full <of grace and truth,> God, the only-begotten, unchangeable.
Sounds to me like he is saying the Word is God and with God.

again, jesus could be an angel and fit that right there. is jesus listed by name in the tanach? no he isn't. he is in shadows in that angel unto the Lord is believed to be a preincarnate. see the confusion?
As the Word that created all things, what is not the Word? That's the way spiritual things work. The Word of God showed up in an ass to rebuke a man. Am I allowed to defame and persecute someone because they said God's Word came as an ass? No. For the Word can do that. What is

first begotten in greek can mean preeminent as does in Hebraic thought. since im my dads firstborn. of all the kids I bear his nature the most. that also means im premimment. but with Christ that doesn't mean god created him. to sire? to birth, to have sex with a woman to create. sorry its not semantics. words mean things. if say I hate you, I can mean only that. I hate you(in English) not I love you less or I don't love you but like you. given that its serious and not a jest as often is said in modern american culture
Yes words mean things. To Love others as we would want to be loved means we have to honestly seek to understand the sentiments behind the words. We should take care not to take them, misinterpret them, and find fault behind things said that were never meant to be taken that way. It happens all the time on these forums. It happens throughout life. You know, you could say you hate me, but you most likely wouldn't say that unless you loved me. Words said can sometimes mean the exact opposite of what was said. That is what I mean by semantics.

and on sire. it means to beget, to use as in beasts. that dictionary is based on kjv English and common usage of that day from a Christian usage. so that is why I choose it.http://sorabji.com/1828/words/s/sire.html
Thank you for pointing that out. I will not use it again. And thank you for not bashing me as a heretic for using it. On second thought, thank God for having you not bash me for using it.
 
Last edited:

Knotical

Shepherd of the Knotical kid-farm
Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Messages
6,078
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
These words all imply that there was a time on earth when the Word had not yet been made into the flesh that is the Christ. I got them from the blue letter lexicon of the bible.

The Christ is the Word "made" flesh. The trinity refers to the Christ as both the son of God and the son of man. This means as pertains to the Christ, the Word "made" flesh, that the Word was not flesh at some point in time before he was made flesh. This is therefore an argument in semantics.
.
Just because you believe it to be about semantics does not make it so.

There is no splitting hairs over John 1:1. It is quite clear. There is nothing else we can take away from that passage other than the fact Christ existed before time, and was made flesh to fulfill His purpose of saving mankind.
 

childeye

Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
6,291
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Just because you believe it to be about semantics does not make it so.

There is no splitting hairs over John 1:1. It is quite clear. There is nothing else we can take away from that passage other than the fact Christ existed before time, and was made flesh to fulfill His purpose of saving mankind.
God requires honesty and humility. In all honesty, if God asked me if a Father precedes his son, I would obviously have to say yes without splitting hairs. Why are the terms Father and son used in the Trinity if there is nothing implied there? Doesn't it mean the son comes from the Father? That Spirit begets Spirit?
 
Last edited:

follower

Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2014
Messages
917
Christian
Yes
God requires honesty and humility. In all honesty, if God asked me if a Father precedes his son, I would obviously have to say yes without splitting hairs. Why are the terms Father and son used in the Trinity if there is nothing implied there? Doesn't it mean the son comes from the Father? That Spirit begets Spirit?
simply, yes. Yhwh sent Yeshua to be born a man, Yhwh prepared a body for Yeshua. Yhwh is called Yeshua's Father/Abba. (and our Father, who abide in Him in Yeshua in Truth(many fakes exist) ) .
what is born of Yhwh is what will last and be permanent - that which is born of the flesh is flesh and profits nothing. we who are born by the will of Yhwh, and not of the flesh , nor of the will of man, have a living spirit to fellowship with Yhwh in union in Yeshua with all the true believers (there are many many more fakes than true believers, as it is written).

now, honesty. Scripture also clearly shows that Yeshua has always forever been with the Father. Scripture is entirely true. so accept ALL that Scripture says, without putting human (fleshly) interpretations or limitations upon it. simple, really. man just messes it all up and complicates it when working to 'use' what is true instead of to believe it.
 

childeye

Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
6,291
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
simply, yes. Yhwh sent Yeshua to be born a man, Yhwh prepared a body for Yeshua. Yhwh is called Yeshua's Father/Abba. (and our Father, who abide in Him in Yeshua in Truth(many fakes exist) ) .
what is born of Yhwh is what will last and be permanent - that which is born of the flesh is flesh and profits nothing. we who are born by the will of Yhwh, and not of the flesh , nor of the will of man, have a living spirit to fellowship with Yhwh in union in Yeshua with all the true believers (there are many many more fakes than true believers, as it is written).

now, honesty. Scripture also clearly shows that Yeshua has always forever been with the Father. Scripture is entirely true. so accept ALL that Scripture says, without putting human (fleshly) interpretations or limitations upon it. simple, really. man just messes it all up and complicates it when working to 'use' what is true instead of to believe it.
I figure that the temporal exists only to define, reaffirm and refine what is taken for granted in the eternal. The Spirit must proceed from the Father to the son, otherwise there is none of this. Without a Christ there can be no New heavens and earth.
 
Last edited:

follower

Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2014
Messages
917
Christian
Yes
Yhwh Created all that is temporal, and all things temporal, all things Created, were Created through Yeshua, and nothing that exists was Created in any other way but only through Yeshua. Thus it is written, and cannot be changed. ( John 1 ... Everything was created through him; nothing—not one thing!— came into being without him. )
 

childeye

Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
6,291
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Yhwh Created all that is temporal, and all things temporal, all things Created, were Created through Yeshua, and nothing that exists was Created in any other way but only through Yeshua. Thus it is written, and cannot be changed. ( John 1 ... Everything was created through him; nothing—not one thing!— came into being without him. )
I get the feeling that you think I do not agree with John 1. Before it was written it was true.
 

follower

Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2014
Messages
917
Christian
Yes
I don't really have a clue what you believe and what you don't believe. Why do you say "before it was written it was true" ?

There's a lot of people (billions) who claim they know there is a trinity, but they don't have a clue. Then there's a lot of people (again, billions) who claim with their mouths "Jesus is Lord", but He's not their Lord (according to His own written Word and spoken Word to them on Judgment day)

p.s. i barely know what day this , except that we are closer to Judgment Day now than we all were yesterday !
 
Top