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Proof of Trinity

times

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has anyone actually looked up the definition of this doctrine before you say you do or don't believe in it . maybe you believe in something similar but not the same . If so then you don't believe in this doctrine but something else but this would help people understand each others beliefs.
 
J

jocor

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has anyone actually looked up the definition of this doctrine before you say you do or don't believe in it . maybe you believe in something similar but not the same . If so then you don't believe in this doctrine but something else but this would help people understand each others beliefs.
The diagram I posted in #1001 represents the trinitarian belief quite well. The problem I have with it is the "Is God" part. As I understand Scripture, only the Father is "God". Anyone else that has the title "elohim" used of them is "elohim" in a lesser sense than Yahweh, the ONLY true God (Elohim) (John 17:3).
 

Free

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I agree that the diagram states this. It teaches the Son and the Father ARE separate ("Is Not"). However, you said, "The Father and the Son are not two separate beings ..." I'm trying to harmonize that statement with the diagram.
The wording I use is specific for a reason. The diagram teaches, as I have, that there is only one Being that is God, and that within that one Being that is God, the Father is fully God, the Son is fully God, and the Holy Spirit is fully God, yet they are distinct Persons.

This is why it is correct to say that the Father and the Son are not two separate beings, otherwise there would be two Gods.

It is not an assumption to believe "Yahweh is the Father's name". That is a Scriptural fact (Psalm 2:7).
It is not an assumption to say "the Father alone is Yahweh". "That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Yahweh, art the most high over all the earth" ( Ps.83:18 ). This verse, as well as several others, says there is only one Yahweh. Since Psalm 2:7 says the Father is Yahweh, then the Father is Yahweh alone.
It is an assumption for the reason I previously gave. You are reading too much into those verses.

The Son is said to be "God" only in English translations.
Okay. Now please post the verse(s) which state this in English translation so we can compare with the Greek/Hebrew.

The Hebrew word "elohim" cannot be translated "God" (capital G) when referring to the Son.
Why not? If Elohim is used of the Son, then surely it can mean that he is God.

Yeshua's Father, Yahweh, is the only true Elohim (God).

"I am Yahweh, and there is none else, there is no Elohim beside me:" Isa 45:5a​
I hate to say it, but this is once again begging the question.
 

Randy

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 10:30 I and My Father are one.

There is only one God who has revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

iakov the fool

How are they one?
Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Likewise isn't it one God in all? Father in Son and Son in us as the Spirit sent was in Jesus's name.

Jesus has His own Spirit as firstborn (before the world began) ="Father into your hands I commit My Spirit"

Jesus is the firstborn of every creature. God formed His Spirit. The fullness was given and that fullness is the Father. "The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" Jesus is not that fullness. That fullness dwells IN Him. The Father and Jesus are one in that manner-as Jesus taught. Believe in Him.


Randy
 

Randy

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This, I agree with. I have stated such before in these forums.
I would state believe in Him. (Jesus)
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

A faithful High Priest who has indestructible life in Himself and is able to save forever those that come to Him for Life. And those who do listen and learn from the Father will go to the Son and Jesus will raise them up on the last day. That is the Fathers will.

Jesus=>Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
Jesus praying to the Father=>I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one--I in them and you in me.

Randy
 
J

jocor

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The wording I use is specific for a reason. The diagram teaches, as I have, that there is only one Being that is God, and that within that one Being that is God, the Father is fully God, the Son is fully God, and the Holy Spirit is fully God, yet they are distinct Persons.

This is why it is correct to say that the Father and the Son are not two separate beings, otherwise there would be two Gods.
What is the difference between a "Being" and a "person"? Please define those terms. I agree with Webster; a "being" is a living thing and a "person" is a human being.

Okay. Now please post the verse(s) which state this in English translation so we can compare with the Greek/Hebrew.
Off the top of my head - Psalm 45:6-7 (Heb 1:8-9); Isa 9:6; John 1:1; 20:28; 1Tim 3:16

Why not? If Elohim is used of the Son, then surely it can mean that he is God.
Because there is only one true Elohim (Deut 4:35-39; 1Sam 2:2; 1 Kgs 8:23,60; 2 Kgs 19:15; Isa 43:10; 44:6; 45:5, 21; Jer 10:10; Joel 2:27; Mal 2:10
 

Free

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What is the difference between a "Being" and a "person"? Please define those terms. I agree with Webster; a "being" is a living thing and a "person" is a human being.
Jim Parker gave an implicit definition of "person" in post #1007. The use of "person" is just an English word for the Greek hypostasis. The word person as it relates to the Trinity, implies personhood, not a mode of being.

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/proof-of-trinity.51592/page-51#post-1134929

Free said:
Jocor said:
The Son is said to be "God" only in English translations.
Okay. Now please post the verse(s) which state this in English translation so we can compare with the Greek/Hebrew.
Off the top of my head - Psalm 45:6-7 (Heb 1:8-9); Isa 9:6; John 1:1; 20:28; 1Tim 3:16
So what do the verses say in the Hebrew and Greek? What words are being translated in the English as "God"?

Because there is only one true Elohim (Deut 4:35-39; 1Sam 2:2; 1 Kgs 8:23,60; 2 Kgs 19:15; Isa 43:10; 44:6; 45:5, 21; Jer 10:10; Joel 2:27; Mal 2:10
You're begging the question again. Remember, the Trinity is monotheistic, so there is no disagreement with the passages above.

We agree that there is only one God, so you need to let this particular argument rest. We agree that the Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit, and that the Son is not the Holy Spirit; they are all distinct from each other. The only outstanding issues here are the eternal preexistence of the Son and the Spirit, and their co-equality with the Father.
 

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I would state believe in Him. (Jesus)
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

A faithful High Priest who has indestructible life in Himself and is able to save forever those that come to Him for Life. And those who do listen and learn from the Father will go to the Son and Jesus will raise them up on the last day. That is the Fathers will.

Jesus=>Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
Jesus praying to the Father=>I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one--I in them and you in me.

Randy
Do you think Mormons will be saved? How about Jehovah's Witnesses? What about Muslims?
 

Jim Parker

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How are they one?
Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Likewise isn't it one God in all? Father in Son and Son in us as the Spirit sent was in Jesus's name.

Jesus has His own Spirit as firstborn (before the world began) ="Father into your hands I commit My Spirit"

Jesus is the firstborn of every creature. God formed His Spirit. The fullness was given and that fullness is the Father. "The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" Jesus is not that fullness. That fullness dwells IN Him. The Father and Jesus are one in that manner-as Jesus taught. Believe in Him.

Randy

No, it's not "one God in all." It's one God in three hypostases ("persons" is a rough translation); Father Son and Holy Spirit. For the believer, the one God indwells him in the person of The Holy Spirit (Jhn 14:17) and the Son (Col 1:27) and the Father (Jhn 14:20).

Jesus is the Humanity of the eternal Word made flesh. As a human being, Jesus of Nazareth had a spirit.

Jesus is both the man, Jesus of Nazareth, and eternal God the word; one person of two natures: creature (man) and deity.

Jesus is the firstborn Son of God. Those who are "born again" are born of God after Jesus. Jesus is the firstborn of the race of God-bearing human beings.

Otherwise, we're wasting our time and should be partying 'til we die 'cause this is what we get while we're breathing and then we die and go to hell.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool
 
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jocor

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Jim Parker gave an implicit definition of "person" in post #1007. The use of "person" is just an English word for the Greek hypostasis. The word person as it relates to the Trinity, implies personhood, not a mode of being.

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/proof-of-trinity.51592/page-51#post-1134929
Why is it that the Septuagint uses hupostasis nineteen times, but is was never translated "person" and that the Greek NT uses it five times, but translates it "person" only once in Hebrews 1:3? Seems rather convenient to me to use "person" so the "persons" of the trinity doctrine can be founded on something. Other verses/versions use substance as in Hebrews 11:1.

So what do the verses say in the Hebrew and Greek? What words are being translated in the English as "God"?
Psalm 45:6-7 "elohim" (Heb 1:8-9) "theos"; Isa 9:6 "el"; John 1:1 "theon" & "theos"; 20:28 "theos"; 1Tim 3:16 "theos".

You're begging the question again. Remember, the Trinity is monotheistic, so there is no disagreement with the passages above.

We agree that there is only one God, so you need to let this particular argument rest. We agree that the Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit, and that the Son is not the Holy Spirit; they are all distinct from each other. The only outstanding issues here are the eternal preexistence of the Son and the Spirit, and their co-equality with the Father.
Just because men say the trinity is monotheistic doesn't mean it is. If you have three distinct beings and they are all God, then you have three Gods. Saying it is a "mystery" is another way of saying you don't know the truth concerning the issue. So, while we agree there is only one God, you add other beings into the mix whereas true monotheism worships one and only one being as the one true God, Father Yahweh.
 

Jim Parker

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Saying it is a "mystery" is another way of saying you don't know the truth concerning the issue. /QUOTE]

We3 absolutely do not know the who90le truth of the issue because God is beyond our knowing.
 

Randy

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Do you think Mormons will be saved? How about Jehovah's Witnesses? What about Muslims?

I believe muslims and mormans are outside of the faith. I don't know about JW. So you ask me what I see then I would state if they continue on their current path at some point in the future the one who judges will state to them "I don't know you". I don't know you is what I see.

Though if you witness to them I would recommend truth. Jesus uses truth. Likewise if one listens and learns from the FATHER they will go to the Son and Jesus will raise them up on the last day. That is also truth.

R.
 

Jim Parker

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I believe muslims and mormans are outside of the faith. I don't know about JW. So you ask me what I see then I would state if they continue on their current path at some point in the future the one who judges will state to them "I don't know you". I don't know you is what I see.

Though if you witness to them I would recommend truth. Jesus uses truth. Likewise if one listens and learns from the FATHER they will go to the Son and Jesus will raise them up on the last day. That is also truth.

R.

In a nutshell:

Muslims deny that Jesus is the Son of God and that He was crucified.
Mormons have a pagan conception of deity as a created being (man) who becomes deity through good works.
Jehovah's Witnesses deny the deity of Christ.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool
 
J

jocor

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In a nutshell:

Muslims deny that Jesus is the Son of God and that He was crucified.
Mormons have a pagan conception of deity as a created being (man) who becomes deity through good works.
Jehovah's Witnesses deny the deity of Christ.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool
Where does it say one must believe the deity of Christ to be saved?
 

Jim Parker

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Where does it say one must believe the deity of Christ to be saved?

What "one"?

Just any one you happen to bump into? No where.

For a Christian? The entire church represented by 318 Bishops met at the council of Nicaea and determined that Christ's deity was what the apostles taught.

So, to be a Christian, one must accept the teaching of the Church (the pillar and foundation of truth) that Jesus is diety.

Now, if you want to make up your own gig and teach something else then you are free to do so in the USA. But it will not be Christianity even if you use the Bible.

iakov the fool
 
J

jocor

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What "one"?

Just any one you happen to bump into? No where.

For a Christian? The entire church represented by 318 Bishops met at the council of Nicaea and determined that Christ's deity was what the apostles taught.

So, to be a Christian, one must accept the teaching of the Church (the pillar and foundation of truth) that Jesus is diety.

Now, if you want to make up your own gig and teach something else then you are free to do so in the USA. But it will not be Christianity even if you use the Bible.

iakov the fool
You are exalting the council of Nicaea over Scripture?? Wow! What makes you think those 318 Bishops were not corrupted by that time? The Ephesian flock was corrupted after Paul's departure (Acts 20:29) and the mystery of iniquity was hard at work long before Nicaea. Scripture is the only firm foundation we have.
 

Jim Parker

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You are exalting the council of Nicaea over Scripture?? Wow! What makes you think those 318 Bishops were not corrupted by that time? The Ephesian flock was corrupted after Paul's departure (Acts 20:29) and the mystery of iniquity was hard at work long before Nicaea. Scripture is the only firm foundation we have.

The council based their conclusions on what scripture taught and what the apostles taught.

But you didn't know that, did you? No, of course not

You just know all that nonsense you insist on dumping here.


iakov the fool
 
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Randy

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What "one"?

Just any one you happen to bump into? No where.

For a Christian? The entire church represented by 318 Bishops met at the council of Nicaea and determined that Christ's deity was what the apostles taught.

So, to be a Christian, one must accept the teaching of the Church (the pillar and foundation of truth) that Jesus is diety.

Now, if you want to make up your own gig and teach something else then you are free to do so in the USA. But it will not be Christianity even if you use the Bible.

iakov the fool
318 was the entire church?
Jesus calls the Father the one true God. If Jesus always was and always was God how then do you believe in ONE
God? For Jesus stated on the cross "Father into your hands I commit my spirit"

Is Jesus God?
He never dies
Yes He is all that the Father is.
No He has always been the Son.

I know my Lord and He knows me.
 

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Why is it that the Septuagint uses hupostasis nineteen times, but is was never translated "person" and that the Greek NT uses it five times, but translates it "person" only once in Hebrews 1:3? Seems rather convenient to me to use "person" so the "persons" of the trinity doctrine can be founded on something. Other verses/versions use substance as in Hebrews 11:1.
"Person" is just the best approximation we have in English when speaking of the Trinity.

Psalm 45:6-7 "elohim" (Heb 1:8-9) "theos"; Isa 9:6 "el"; John 1:1 "theon" & "theos"; 20:28 "theos"; 1Tim 3:16 "theos".
So you admit that in both English, Hebrew, and Greek, that Jesus is called God. Why do you then deny that?

Just because men say the trinity is monotheistic doesn't mean it is.
Actually, yes, it does. That is why the wording is specific. If you want to say that the Trinity isn't monotheistic, then you're not arguing against the Trinity as it is defined by Christians.

If you have three distinct beings and they are all God, then you have three Gods. Saying it is a "mystery" is another way of saying you don't know the truth concerning the issue. So, while we agree there is only one God, you add other beings into the mix whereas true monotheism worships one and only one being as the one true God, Father Yahweh.
Not three Gods. Again, the wording is specific to avoid three Gods and three beings. And again, you have failed to show that only the Father is Yahweh. That the Son and Holy Spirit are also God is what Scripture reveals, so your problem then lies with the mystery given by Scripture. And that despite the fact that Scripture states Jesus is God, something you have even given evidence of.
 
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