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Proposition: There Is No Compelling Argument For A Future Antichrist.

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JAG ..

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Says Dr. Loraine Boettner

". . . not one single reference in Daniel or Ezekiel or Paul or the Book of Revelation . . .
which (some) allege refer to the Antichrist is connected in any way with the verses in
the epistles of John that mention the antichrist. All is based on inference. Let the reader
search for himself and see how far-fetched that (alleged) connection is.

We make bold to say that this picture of Antichrist as a (future) world ruler . . . is pure fiction,
without so much as one clear supporting verse in all Scripture."
The Millennium, Dr. Loraine Boettner, page 210

The Bible mentions Antichrist in only the following 4 verses:
1 John 2:18
1John 2:22
1 John 4:3
2 John 7

There is no compelling argument for a future Antichrist because . . . .

There is no compelling argument that connects these 4 verses with
anything said in Daniel or Ezekiel or Paul or the Book of Revelation.

For example:
There is no evidence that the "man of sin" or the "man of lawlessness"
mentioned in 2 Thess. 2:3 is connected in any way with the antichrists
mentioned in the 4 verses in John's epistles.


Also note the following from John's epistles that mention antichrist:

(1) Antichrist is applied to many persons existing in the first century
1 John 2:18 "even now has there arisen many antichrists"
In the next verse, 1 John 2:19, John identifies the antichrists as
first century Christian apostates "They went out from us, but they
did not really belong to us."

(2) In 1 John 2:22 the antichrist is identified as those who deny the
Father and the Son. "This is the antichrist, even he that denies the
Father and the Son." The antichrists were first century apostates.

(3) In 1 John 4:3 the antichrist is identified as every one who does
not acknowledge Jesus. It is then said that antichrist "even now is
already in the world" (of the first century).

(4) 2 John 7 says that the antichrist is many deceivers that have gone
out in the world (of the first century.) Therefore this verse says that
there are many antichrists, not just one antichrist.

What say you?
 
No...
Just no. Not inclined to agree with this line of logic.
Plurality of names (meaning the same thing) is common in scripture.

Why John wouldn't use this literary device is something that you would have to prove first.
 
Once I believed this ,and didn't before and not again .the earky church in,the dudache having seen or heard of ad 70 wrote in,the didache of the antichrist.

Honestly ,I have my,leanings but I'm,not sure we are able to see it clearly ,many opinions ,not all clearly supported
 
JohnDB said:
No...
Just no. Not inclined to agree with this line of logic.
Plurality of names (meaning the same thing) is common in scripture.

Why John wouldn't use this literary device is something that you would have to prove first.
Click to expand...

JohnDB,
Thanks for your comments. There is nothing in your comments that refutes a single statement in the Opening Post.
Your "No... Just no." is not an argument. It is a proclamation.
And the burden of proof is not on me. My Opening Post is not about "Why John Wouldn't Use A Certain Literary Device."

My Opening Post is:
Proposition: There Is No Compelling Argument For A Future Antichrist. Do you have one?
Thanks for reading my Opening Post.
 
jasonc said:
Once I believed this . . .
Click to expand...

jasonc,
Thanks for your comment.

By the way, can you help me find the Edit button? I can't seem to locate the Edit button. How do we Edit our posts?

Or anyone else who can tell me where the Edit button is, please do so.
Thanks.
 
jasonc said:

Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).

Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson). On Early Christian Writings.
www.earlychristianwritings.com


Look,for what they,said.

Given that was written in 96,ad or close .how could they be that ignorant.

Its not the bible but compelling,in my,view
Click to expand...

jasonc,
Thanks again for your comments.
What about the Edit button? I can't locate the Edit button.
Can you tell me where the Edit button is?
 
JAG .. said:
JohnDB,
Thanks for your comments. There is nothing in your comments that refutes a single statement in the Opening Post.
Your "No... Just no." is not an argument. It is a proclamation.
And the burden of proof is not on me. My Opening Post is not about "Why John Wouldn't Use A Certain Literary Device."

My Opening Post is:
Proposition: There Is No Compelling Argument For A Future Antichrist. Do you have one?
Thanks for reading my Opening Post.
Click to expand...
How many names did Jacob have?
How about Daniel?
Esau?
Jerusalem?

Why wouldn't the Antichrist have more than one name?
 
JohnDB said:
How many names did Jacob have?
How about Daniel?
Esau?
Jerusalem?

Why wouldn't the Antichrist have more than one name?
Click to expand...

JohnDB, thanks for your interest in the Opening Post, but I am looking for a compelling argument that compellingly connects the 4 verses in John that mention antichrist with any other Scriptures.

So far there is no compelling argument that connects these 4 verses with
anything said in Daniel or Ezekiel or Paul or the Book of Revelation.

Asking me a question is not presenting an argument that compellingly connects the 4 verses in John that mentions antichrist with Daniel or Ezekiel or Paul or the Book of revelation.

Also my points (1), (2), (3), and (4) in the Opening Post, about those 4 verses in John, stand true. For example, this one:

(1) Antichrist is applied to many persons existing in the first century
1 John 2:18 "even now has there arisen many antichrists"
In the next verse, 1 John 2:19, John identifies the antichrists as
first century Christian apostates "They went out from us, but they
did not really belong to us."

My view is that, so far, my Opening Post stands unrefuted.
 
JAG .. said:
JohnDB, thanks for your interest in the Opening Post, but I am looking for a compelling argument that compellingly connects the 4 verses in John that mention antichrist with any other Scriptures.

So far there is no compelling argument that connects these 4 verses with
anything said in Daniel or Ezekiel or Paul or the Book of Revelation.

Asking me a question is not presenting an argument that compellingly connects the 4 verses in John that mentions antichrist with Daniel or Ezekiel or Paul or the Book of revelation.

Also my points (1), (2), (3), and (4) in the Opening Post, about those 4 verses in John, stand true. For example, this one:

(1) Antichrist is applied to many persons existing in the first century
1 John 2:18 "even now has there arisen many antichrists"
In the next verse, 1 John 2:19, John identifies the antichrists as
first century Christian apostates "They went out from us, but they
did not really belong to us."

My view is that, so far, my Opening Post stands unrefuted.
Click to expand...
Well to everyone else (other than you) it was a pretty good defense.
You can claim victory if you want. But you only won yourself over.

I don't see this line of logic working for a lot of people.
Nevermind those who get their theologies from Hollywood...not talking about them. I'm talking about the scholars. They all pretty much disagree with you. They all have alphabet letters behind their name too.

Now you have yet to show us a really logical reason to give up our understanding and follow the logic of a guy we don't know on the internet.
I asked you to explain one thing and you refused. But claimed victory at the same time.
Not exactly sure why...but very uncharacteristic of a messenger of god
 
If you look,for my,user name and jasoncran.in end times you see a pre mil pretribber and a partial preterist.if you look,long enough why I moved .

And now closer to the early church view.modern futurism has problems.

They,the preterists didn't deny an a.c. but claim he came,problem is,that event in ad 70 wasn't seen by the early church as fulfillment .nor does Titus do exactly as Jesus said .
 
jasonc said:
If you look,for my,user name and jasoncran.in end times you see a pre mil pretribber and a partial preterist.if you look,long enough why I moved .

And now closer to the early church view.modern futurism has problems.

They,the preterists didn't deny an a.c. but claim he came,problem is,that event in ad 70 wasn't seen by the early church as fulfillment .nor does Titus do exactly as Jesus said .
Click to expand...
See,
That's the thing.
All three views (preterism, futureist, and a blend of the two) can be somewhat successfully argued.
Very confusing to say the least...and likely the intent.
 
To all,
To me, the message of the End Times is to always be ready.
And I am. Kinda... LOL
I still want to be there for my wife and son and friends... like they need me to be to help them with their witnessing.
I still want to see some people I've come to know become disciples...

But it's God's call...not mine.

I got stuff I want to do...but I'm ready to try it in heaven too.
Some bad guy running around... doesn't bother me because I am me...and a bad guy over there doesn't affect my attitude or what I believe.
 
JohnDB said:
To all,
To me, the message of the End Times is to always be ready.
And I am. Kinda... LOL
I still want to be there for my wife and son and friends... like they need me to be to help them with their witnessing.
I still want to see some people I've come to know become disciples...

But it's God's call...not mine.

I got stuff I want to do...but I'm ready to try it in heaven too.
Some bad guy running around... doesn't bother me because I am me...and a bad guy over there doesn't affect my attitude or what I believe.
Click to expand...
I learn from studying it but the way futurism paints revelation they ignore from what I have seen ,the idea of its very name,what the imagery points too,and focus solely on isreal,the judgement and miss tiny little stuff that Jews don't ,oh,like the 4 living creatures and how isreal lines up .while not all futurists do that but its just not shown as a vision of how the heavens move ,unlike how a new sees this .
 
The Bible never defines just one antichrist, but says even now there are many and in the end of days will be the last time, 1 John 2:18. We have to remember that Satan is a created spirit and needs to work through others in order to build his literal kingdom here on earth as the war in heaven between Michael and Satan has not happened yet, Rev 12:7-12. This will be a Luciferian system of political, economic, military, educational and false religious power that founded in 1534 with its headquarters in Rome, Italy that will sit upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north which is Jerusalem on the same Temple mount of God where the Dome of the Rock is being refurbished for the son of perdition to take its seat. This power of the beast out of the sea gives power to the beast out of the earth who will control the government of every nation and even now works its iniquity in the world, Rev 13.

The beast that will rise up out of the sea, as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15, gives power to the beast that comes up out of the earth who is the last antichrist/ false prophet/son of perdition. His works is the abomination that causes desolation that Jesus forewarned us of in Matthew 24:15 and Daniel who explained this last of the seven remaining nations that still exist today and has always persecuted God's people from the time of Babylon up to present day unto the end of days, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Matthew 24:15; Revelation 13; Revelation 17:15. This will be the time of the greatest falling away from truth as this last antichrist, through lying signs and wonders will promise peace and safety and then sudden destruction comes upon them who bow down and takes the mark of this beast, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6.

Jesus said those who will endure in the faith of Christ unto the end the same shall be saved, Matthew 24:13. Satan said, I will ascend into heaven; I will exalt my throne above the stars of God (other ruling powers) I will sit also upon the Mount of the Congregation in the sides of the north (Jerusalem). I will ascend above the clouds, I will be like the Most High, Isaiah 14:12-15. The last antichrist, (as there have been many and even now are in the world), is the son of perdition being the false prophet that Satan works through as he will sit on the sides of the North declaring himself as being God and will cause many to bow down to him and take his mark as many will believe the lying signs and wonders he will show, Rev 13. Again, nowhere in scripture does it capitalize antichrist, but mans misinterpretations capitalize it and makes it one Antichrist that we are to watch for before Christ returns.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 
JAG .. said:
Says Dr. Loraine Boettner

". . . not one single reference in Daniel or Ezekiel or Paul or the Book of Revelation . . .
which (some) allege refer to the Antichrist is connected in any way with the verses in
the epistles of John that mention the antichrist. All is based on inference. Let the reader
search for himself and see how far-fetched that (alleged) connection is.

We make bold to say that this picture of Antichrist as a (future) world ruler . . . is pure fiction,
without so much as one clear supporting verse in all Scripture."
The Millennium, Dr. Loraine Boettner, page 210

The Bible mentions Antichrist in only the following 4 verses:
1 John 2:18
1John 2:22
1 John 4:3
2 John 7

There is no compelling argument for a future Antichrist because . . . .

There is no compelling argument that connects these 4 verses with
anything said in Daniel or Ezekiel or Paul or the Book of Revelation.

For example:
There is no evidence that the "man of sin" or the "man of lawlessness"
mentioned in 2 Thess. 2:3 is connected in any way with the antichrists
mentioned in the 4 verses in John's epistles.


Also note the following from John's epistles that mention antichrist:

(1) Antichrist is applied to many persons existing in the first century
1 John 2:18 "even now has there arisen many antichrists"
In the next verse, 1 John 2:19, John identifies the antichrists as
first century Christian apostates "They went out from us, but they
did not really belong to us."

(2) In 1 John 2:22 the antichrist is identified as those who deny the
Father and the Son. "This is the antichrist, even he that denies the
Father and the Son." The antichrists were first century apostates.

(3) In 1 John 4:3 the antichrist is identified as every one who does
not acknowledge Jesus. It is then said that antichrist "even now is
already in the world" (of the first century).

(4) 2 John 7 says that the antichrist is many deceivers that have gone
out in the world (of the first century.) Therefore this verse says that
there are many antichrists, not just one antichrist.

What say you?
Click to expand...


Who does these names refer to?


King of kings
Lord of lords
Prince of peace
Mighty God
Wonderful
Lamb of God
The only begotten of the Father
The Word
The Messiah
The Christ
Emmanuel
The Alpha and Omega
The First and Last
The Holy One of Israel


None of the verses that carries these different names connect with one another.



JLB
 
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