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Elf

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Luther on Purgatory.

Augustine, Ambrose, and Jerome held nothing at all of purgatory. Gregory, being in the nighttime deceived by a vision, taught something of purgatory, whereas God openly commanded that we should search out and inquire nothing of spirits, but of Moses and the prophets. Therefore we must not admit Gregory's opinion on this point; the day of the Lord will show and declare the same, when it will be revealed by fire.

This sentence, "And their works do follow them," must not be understood of purgatory, but of the doctrine of good works, or of godly and true Christians, and of heretics. Arius, the heretic, has had his judgment; the fire of faith has declared it. For the last day will discover and declare all things.

God has, in his Word, laid before us two ways; one which by faith leads to salvation, - the other, by unbelief, to damnation.

As for purgatory, no place in Scripture makes mention thereof, neither must we any way allow it; for it darkens and undervalues the grace, benefits, and merits of our blessed, sweet Saviour Christ Jesus.

The bounds of purgatory extend not beyond this world; for here in this life the upright, good, and godly Christians are well and soundly scoured and purged.
 
Back in my Catholic days, I always wore a scapula. That way, if I died, Mary would come down to Purgatory on the first Friday of the next month and get me out of there.
 
Elf said:
The bounds of purgatory extend not beyond this world; for here in this life the upright, good, and godly Christians are well and soundly scoured and purged.

To which I can attest. :thumb
 
Sorry, but, purgatory does not exist.

It's either heaven or hell, after we die. NO ONE can pray you out of purgatory, because, number one:
it doesn't exist
number two
Jesus clearly says in Scripture that the time for accepting or rejecting Jesus Christ is now, in this life.

There is no second chance, after you die.

The Fire (FULL) by Nate Pfeil
Praise the Lord! God has raised up another prophet and preacher!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhX7m3rF20c
Listen to him, IF YOU CAN!
 
Elf said:
Luther on Purgatory.

Augustine, Ambrose, and Jerome held nothing at all of purgatory.

Baloney. Is this Luther's statement or yours? You or Luther don't have a clue. Thus, the rest of your post is not even worthy of looking at, since you present such an easily overturned lie...

"Give, Oh Lord, rest to Thy servant Theodosius, that rest Thou hast prepared for Thy saints....I love him, therefore will I follow him to the land of the living; I will not leave him till by my prayers and lamentations he shall be admitted unto the holy mount of the Lord,to which his deserts call him." Ambrose, De obitu Theodosii, PL 16:1397 (A.D. 395)

No point in praying for souls in heaven or hell, thus, the prayers for a person in a "holding place" after death.

"If the baptized person fulfills the obligations demanded of a Christian, he does well. If he does not--provided he keeps the faith, without which he would perish forever--no matter in what sin or impurity remains, he will be saved, as it were, by fire; as one who has built on the foundation, which is Christ, not gold, silver, and precious stones, but wood, hay straw, that is, not just and chasted works but wicked and unchaste works." Augustine, Faith and Works, 1:1 (A.D. 413).

"Now on what ground does this person pray that he may not be 'rebuked in indignation, nor chastened in hot displeasure"? He speaks as if he would say unto God, 'Since the things which I already suffer are many in number, I pray Thee let them suffice;' and he begins to enumerate them, by way of satisfying God; offering what he suffers now, that he may not have to suffer worse evils hereafter." Augustine, Exposition of the Psalms, 38(37):3 (A.D. 418).

"And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it. This cannot, however, be the case of any of those of whom it is said, that they 'shall not inherit the kingdom of God,' unless after suitable repentance their sins be forgiven them. When I say 'suitable,' I mean that they are not to be unfruitful in almsgiving; for Holy Scripture lays so much stress on this virtue, that our Lord tells us beforehand, that He will ascribe no merit to those on His right hand but that they abound in it, and no defect to those on His left hand but their want of it, when He shall say to the former, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom," and to the latter, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire.'" Augustine, Enchiridion, 69 (A.D. 421).

"During the time, moreover, which intervenes between a man's death and the final resurrection, the soul dwells in a hidden retreat, where it enjoys rest or suffers affliction just in proportion to the merit it has earned by the life which it led on earth." Augustine, Enchiridion, 1099 (A.D. 421).

"For our part, we recognize that even in this life some punishments are purgatorial,--not, indeed, to those whose life is none the better, but rather the worse for them, but to those who are constrained by them to amend their life. All other punishments, whether temporal or eternal, inflicted as they are on every one by divine providence, are sent either on account of past sins, or of sins presently allowed in the life, or to exercise and reveal a man's graces. They may be inflicted by the instrumentality of bad men and angels as well as of the good. For even if any one suffers some hurt through another's wickedness or mistake, the man indeed sins whose ignorance or injustice does the harm; but God, who by His just though hidden judgment permits it to be done, sins not. But temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But of those who suffer temporary punishments after death, all are not doomed to those everlasting pains which are to follow that judgment; for to some, as we have already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next, that is, they are not punished with the eternal punishment of the world to come." Augustine, City of God, 21:13 (A.D. 426).

"But since she has this certainty regarding no man, she prays for all her enemies who yet live in this world; and yet she is not heard in behalf of all. But she is heard in the case of those only who, though they oppose the Church, are yet predestinated to become her sons through her intercession...For some of the dead, indeed, the prayer of the Church or of pious individuals is heard; but it is for those who, having been regenerated in Christ, did not spend their life so wickedly that they can be judged unworthy of such compassion, nor so well that they can be considered to have no need of it. As also, after the resurrection, there will be some of the dead to whom, after they have endured the pains proper to the spirits of the dead, mercy shall be accorded, and acquittal from the punishment of the eternal fire. For were there not some whose sins, though not remitted in this life, shall be remitted in that which is to come, it could not be truly said, "They shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, neither in that which is to come.' But when the Judge of quick and dead has said, 'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world,' and to those on the other side, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels,' and 'These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life,' it were excessively presumptuous to say that the punishment of any of those whom God has said shall go away into eternal punishment shall not be eternal, and so bring either despair or doubt upon the corresponding promise of life eternal." Augustine, City of God,2 1:24 (A.D. 426).
 
Biblereader said:
Sorry, but, purgatory does not exist.

It's either heaven or hell, after we die. NO ONE can pray you out of purgatory, because, number one:
it doesn't exist
number two
Jesus clearly says in Scripture that the time for accepting or rejecting Jesus Christ is now, in this life.

There is no second chance, after you die.

Purgatory is not a "second chance". The saved is further purified and made perfect in the PURGATION of purgatory. The wicked do not go to purgatory.

Purgation begins here on earth, as glory states, and continues to completion after our death. Otherwise, what would be the POINT of ANY purgation in this life? Why ARE we purged and made holy in THIS life, if NOT to be perfected eventually? If Christ "covers us", since NOTHING unclean can enter heaven, then why the need for us to be purified or purged or disciplined in this life onto eternal life?

Purgatory merely completes sanctification that God has begun in His children, if they do not attain it by the time of their bodily death. It is a mercy of God.

Regards
 
Elf said:
Luther on Purgatory.

Augustine, Ambrose, and Jerome held nothing at all of purgatory. .


Wrong again:

"Give, Oh Lord, rest to Thy servant Theodosius, that rest Thou hast prepared for Thy saints....I love him, therefore will I follow him to the land of the living; I will not leave him till by my prayers and lamentations he shall be admitted unto the holy mount of the Lord,to which his deserts call him." Ambrose, De obitu Theodosii, PL 16:1397 (A.D. 395).


"And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it. This cannot, however, be the case of any of those of whom it is said, that they 'shall not inherit the kingdom of God,' unless after suitable repentance their sins be forgiven them. When I say 'suitable,' I mean that they are not to be unfruitful in almsgiving; for Holy Scripture lays so much stress on this virtue, that our Lord tells us beforehand, that He will ascribe no merit to those on His right hand but that they abound in it, and no defect to those on His left hand but their want of it, when He shall say to the former, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom," and to the latter, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire.'" Augustine, Enchiridion, 69 (A.D. 421).

"During the time, moreover, which intervenes between a man's death and the final resurrection, the soul dwells in a hidden retreat, where it enjoys rest or suffers affliction just in proportion to the merit it has earned by the life which it led on earth." Augustine, Enchiridion, 1099 (A.D. 421).

"For our part, we recognize that even in this life some punishments are purgatorial,--not, indeed, to those whose life is none the better, but rather the worse for them, but to those who are constrained by them to amend their life. All other punishments, whether temporal or eternal, inflicted as they are on every one by divine providence, are sent either on account of past sins, or of sins presently allowed in the life, or to exercise and reveal a man's graces. They may be inflicted by the instrumentality of bad men and angels as well as of the good. For even if any one suffers some hurt through another's wickedness or mistake, the man indeed sins whose ignorance or injustice does the harm; but God, who by His just though hidden judgment permits it to be done, sins not. But temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But of those who suffer temporary punishments after death, all are not doomed to those everlasting pains which are to follow that judgment; for to some, as we have already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next, that is, they are not punished with the eternal punishment of the world to come." Augustine, City of God, 21:13 (A.D. 426).


More ECFs on purgatory:

"Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more--not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God's righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202).

"[T]hat allegory of the Lord which is extremely clear and simple in its meaning, and ought to be from the first understood in its plain and natural sense...Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term 'adversary' to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord's) injunction, while you are in the way with him, 'to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as 'the accuser of the brethren,' or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?" Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 35 (A.D. 210).


"For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Cor.,3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works." Origen, Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445, 448 ( A.D. 244).
 
francisdesales said:
Biblereader said:
Sorry, but, purgatory does not exist.

It's either heaven or hell, after we die. NO ONE can pray you out of purgatory, because, number one:
it doesn't exist
number two
Jesus clearly says in Scripture that the time for accepting or rejecting Jesus Christ is now, in this life.

There is no second chance, after you die.

Purgatory is not a "second chance". The saved is further purified and made perfect in the PURGATION of purgatory. The wicked do not go to purgatory.

Purgation begins here on earth, as glory states, and continues to completion after our death. Otherwise, what would be the POINT of ANY purgation in this life? Why ARE we purged and made holy in THIS life, if NOT to be perfected eventually? If Christ "covers us", since NOTHING unclean can enter heaven, then why the need for us to be purified or purged or disciplined in this life onto eternal life?

Purgatory merely completes sanctification that God has begun in His children, if they do not attain it by the time of their bodily death. It is a mercy of God.

Regards
Joe, do you see this verse as being the refining you're speaking of? It does seem like it would fit in.

1 Cor. 3:12-15 said:
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 
glorydaz said:
Joe, do you see this verse as being the refining you're speaking of? It does seem like it would fit in.

1 Cor. 3:12-15 said:
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It certainly appears to point to some purgation after life, since it refers to a "day...revealed by fire". The Church Fathers of the 3-6 centuries commonly interpreted this "purging fire" as purgatory, as Augustine's Faith and Works cited above.

Now, whether this occurs instantaneously or whether a person is confined in some time analogous to our time, we just don't know the process. We know of it's existence, by dogma, and the rest is pretty much opinion and speculation.

Regards
 
It seems even Roman Catholics are divided on purgatory.
The Catholic Encyclopedia correctly states:

The modern Orthodox Church denies purgatory…(Hanna, Edward J. Transcribed by William G. Bilton, Ph.D. Purgatory. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XII. Published 1911. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, June 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York).


The Catholic Encyclopedia itself admits that early Christians did not teach its current concept of its purgatory doctrine:

Some stress too has been laid upon the objection that the ancient Christians had no clear conception of purgatory, and that they thought that the souls departed remained in uncertainty of salvation to the last day...There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come"...(Hanna, Purgatory. The Catholic Encyclopedia).


Purgatory didn't even really have a start until the fourth century. This came about by all the pagan's in the church.
 
Elf said:
Luther on Purgatory.
Augustine, Ambrose, and Jerome held nothing at all of purgatory.
francisdesales said:
Baloney. Is this Luther's statement or yours? You or Luther don't have a clue. Thus, the rest of your post is not even worthy of looking at, since you present such an easily overturned lie...

Augustine said, that nobody was obliged to believe in Purgatory. Many Roman Catholics historians stated that the majority of the ECF believed purgatory was from pagan origin.

Dr. Laird R. Harris states: "It is well to remember that the doctrine of Purgatory which rests like a heavy burden upon the heart of every Roman Catholic was not taught by any of the early church fathers and had a very slow growth until the fifth century. Its beginnings in prayers for the dead and a difference in status between the martyred dead and the ordinary Christian departed may be found as early as 200 A.D. in the writings of Tertullian. Mention of the penal fires comes much later, and the masses for the poor souls in purgatory still later. The doctrine of Purgatory is another one of those foreign growths that has fastened itself like a malignant tumor upon the theology of the Roman Catholic Church."

Tertullian spoke of purgatory only after he had joined the sect of the Montanists (a heretical cult of the 2nd century), and he confesses that it is not through the Holy Scriptures, but through the inspiration of the Paraclete of Montanus that he knows anything about purgatory.

Augustine, the most learned and pious of the holy fathers, does not find purgatory in the Bible, and positively says that its existence is dubious."
 
Roman Catholic Doctrine, definition.

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

Source: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

Personally I believe this is not a Christian doctrine, it has no scripture support.

It is Christ's work on the cross which sets us free.
1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Romans 3:25-26 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Eph 5:2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma

The Pope can put no one in Purgatory, simple because it does not exist. And as Tina Turner said, "we don't need another hero."
We already have one who is forever.

Considering Hebrews 7 where is the need?
Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
 
Purgatory is a man made doctrine, to create fear and have control. And a lie from the enemy to distort the gospel. It was also a way to steal money from the people. The old saying, "as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs."

Here are a couple stories from a history book of the Christian Churches and the Reformation.

Pope Leo published a Bull, proclaiming a general indulgence. Leo said it will be for the building of St. Peters Church. In November 1517, Leo required from his commissioner of indulgences 147 gold ducats, to pay for a manuscript of the 33d book of Livy. Of all the uses he made of the money extorted from the Germans, this was undoubtedly the best. But it was strange to deliver souls from purgatory that he might purchase a manuscript of the wars of the Romans.

A miner of Schneeberg meeting a seller of indulgences inquired: "Must we then believe what you have often said of the power of indulgences and of the authority of the Pope, and think that we can redeem a soul from purgatory by casting a penny into a chest?" The dealer in indulgences affirmed that it was so.
"Ah, replied the miner, "what a cruel man the Pope must be, thus to leave a poor soul to suffer so long in the flames for a wretched penny! If he has no ready money, let him collect a few hundred thousand crowns, and deliver all these souls by one act. Even we poor folks would willingly pay him the principle and interest.
 
What amazes me the most is, if Purgatory was true biblical teaching, why didn't Jesus teach it, or any of the Apostle? Why would they hint about it (as RC's believe)? Can you imagine Jesus teaching the Apostles, "What I am going to do will not quite be good enough for your salvation; after death, you will still have to go through a purging process, purgatory. But, I did do the best I could." If it were true, why would Jesus neglect such an "important" doctrine?

All humans are inclined to a sad feeling when loosing a loved on, right? I believe this is where this teaching may have originated. People were greatly hurt by their loss, and wanted God to know (in their human way) how burdened they were for their losses. Of course, it got out of hand.
Satan does his best to distort the truth in scripture, and nullify the cross of Christ.

It is also very possible the early church fathers could have been dragged off in error. After all, they weren't Apostles.

Think about someone like Augustine, his mother said to him, remember me in the celebration of rites at the alter (Confessions), obviously an old woman's request. Now consider Augustine never having checked scripture to this teaching, but grieved and missing his mother. And wishing to be approved by others for his affection for his mother.

Now think of all those who were simpleminded listening to Augustine and others. Hence, perfect opportunity for the enemy.
 
Catholicism teaches: "Purgatory merely completes sanctification that God has begun in His children,"

The Bible teaches: Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

It is Christ's Sacrifice on the Cross, alone, that perfects God's people. Nowhere does the Bible teach that Purgatory even exists, nor is there a need for it.
 
Vince said:
Catholicism teaches: "Purgatory merely completes sanctification that God has begun in His children,"

The Bible teaches: Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

It is Christ's Sacrifice on the Cross, alone, that perfects God's people. Nowhere does the Bible teach that Purgatory even exists, nor is there a need for it.


That's all you got?

We are perfected in Purgatory, due to the Cross of Christ, applied to those who resisted complete sanctification while on earth. Is every Christian you know "perfect" at the moment of their death, free from all sin? Hardly...

The Bible does teach a third place of existence, a holding place, where one could pray to God to release them. This is even before Jesus took on flesh.
 
Elf said:
It seems even Roman Catholics are divided on purgatory.
The Catholic Encyclopedia correctly states:

The modern Orthodox Church denies purgatory…(Hanna, Edward J. Transcribed by William G. Bilton, Ph.D. Purgatory. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XII. Published 1911. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, June 1, 1911. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York).

Again, you don't have a clue.

The "Orthodox Church" is not the Roman Catholic Church, so how does posting this "denial" show disagreement IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH? By the way, the Greek Orthodox DO believe in a holding place for the souls in need of purgation...

A rose by any other name is still a rose. The reason why the Orthodox don't agree with this Dogma is that it was promulgated AFTER they split from the Catholic Church - politics. Of course they aren't going to agree with it - although they believe the same thing...

Elf said:
The Catholic Encyclopedia itself admits that early Christians did not teach its current concept of its purgatory doctrine:


CURRENT concept. But the seed was there, even before Christianity. Thus, 2 Maccabees is cited as evidence of the beginning of the concept. The definition is a narrowing, a statement of doctrine. The concept of praying for the dead souls is older than Christianity and continued during the entire time of the first three centuries, what most call "ancient Christianity".

Elf said:
Purgatory didn't even really have a start until the fourth century. This came about by all the pagan's in the church.

Thanks for you unfounded opinion with absolutely no facts...
 
Elf said:
What amazes me the most is, if Purgatory was true biblical teaching, why didn't Jesus teach it, or any of the Apostle? Why would they hint about it (as RC's believe)? Can you imagine Jesus teaching the Apostles, "What I am going to do will not quite be good enough for your salvation; after death, you will still have to go through a purging process, purgatory. But, I did do the best I could." If it were true, why would Jesus neglect such an "important" doctrine?

.

That's not accurate. Jesus did teach us about purification after death:

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.†The word “opponent†(antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison†is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.†Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next†(from the Greek “en to mellontiâ€) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
 
Elf said:
What amazes me the most is, if Purgatory was true biblical teaching, why didn't Jesus teach it, or any of the Apostle?

They did. They just didn't use the word "purgatory". There are a number of Scriptures pointing to the teaching, used by those who, guided by the Spirit, were led to promulgate, just as at Jerusalem in Acts 15.

Maybe you should ask yourself why no one taught sola fide or sola scriptura, yet you believe it...

Elf said:
It is also very possible the early church fathers could have been dragged off in error. After all, they weren't Apostles.

Oh, the Apostles ONLY were without error? What sort of Church is this, that cannot know truth once its founders die off? Is this Church guided by God or the Apostles???

Did the Apostles set the canon of Scriptures, for example? Maybe those guys got that wrong, too...

You either believe that the Spirit of God is guiding His Church, or you don't...


Elf said:
Think about someone like Augustine, his mother said to him, remember me in the celebration of rites at the alter (Confessions), obviously an old woman's request. Now consider Augustine never having checked scripture to this teaching, but grieved and missing his mother. And wishing to be approved by others for his affection for his mother.

Augustine lived and breathed Scriptures. Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Those bishops of the Church practically memorized the Bible, for heaven's sake. Christianity was taken much more seriously then then we see today. They didn't have computers to do word searches for pertinent apologetic discussions, they just KNEW where to go. Please. Augustine was not inventing a doctrine. It was common practice long before Augustine weeped for his mother.
 
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