Rapture at the Last Trump

[Orates]

These passages reveal that the 1st Resurrection/Rapture occur together at the Last Trump on the Last Day of this age.

John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt (at the 2nd Resurrection of the lost after the Millennium on earth).
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet (last), and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other(from the North, South, East, and West).
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The 1st Resurrection/ Rapture happens at the last Trump just before Jesus returns in the clouds. This truth is self evident from the passages above.

Will you recant your belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture now, or wait till after the Final Treaty is signed, when Pre-Trib becomes a moot point?
Orates

 

[Vic C.]

If I may add to this conversation:

The seventh angelic Trumpet of Revelation IS NOT the Last Trump. The Last Trump is a Trump of God, not of some angel. I offer this in case some here are not familiar with these Trumps of God, which are associated with Jewish feast.

Enjoy!

The Last Trump

"We cannot go to the Book of Revelation and say that the voice of the seventh angel (Revelation 11:15) is the last trump. In the first century, the last trump (shofar) meant a specific day in the year. In Judaism, there are three trumpets (shofarim) that have a name. They are the first trump, the last trump, and the great trump. Each one of these trumpets indicates a specific day in the Jewish year. The first trump is blown on the Feast of Shavuot (Pentecost) (Exodus [Shemot] 19:19). It proclaimed that G-d had betrothed Himself to Israel. The last trump is synonymous with Rosh HaShanah, according to Theodore Gaster in his book, Festivals of the Jewish Year, in his chapter on Rosh HaShanah. Herman Kieval also states the same thing in his book, The High Holy Days (Volume I, Rosh HaShanah, Chapter 5, Footnote 11), in the chapter on the shofar. The great trumpet is blown on Yom Kippur, which will herald the return of the Messiah Yeshua back to earth (Matthew [Mattityahu] 24:31)."

(Hebraic Heritage Ministries, http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2175/)

(Lev 23:24 KJV) Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

(Num 29:1 KJV) And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.

According to Num 10:10, Israel was to blow a trumpet at the beginning of each month. Since the Mosaic festival year was seven months long, the seventh month (Tishri) was the last month for a festival trumpet. This day, the first day of Tishri, which was the start of the Jewish civil year, was known as Rosh haShanah (the Feast of Trumpets or the Day of Trumpets). "The last month in the seven months' series was always sounded on this New Moon Day. This made it the final trumpets' day." (Ernest L. Martin, The Star that Astonished the World, (c)1996, pg 95)

Martin further signifies this day by relying on the work of Theodor Gaster and his book titled "Festivals of the Jewish Year." It is stated that early Jews recognized the Day of Trumpets as a type of memorial day. More than our modern versions of the holiday, it was instead a day that was symbolic of the time "when the dead return to rejoin their descendants at the beginning of the year." Martin also quotes Gaster in saying that this was "the time that became a symbol of the Last Trump." (Martin, pg 96)

(1 Cor 15:52 KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

(1 Th 4:16 KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It is quite possible that Paul, being Jewish himself and surely knowledgeable of the Jewish feasts and customs, was making a symbolic reference to this time of year -- the Day of Trumpets. "The 'Last Trump' of the early Jews was when the dead were remembered. And to Paul the 'Last Trump' was the time for Jesus' second advent and the resurrection of the dead." (Martin, pg 96).

 

[Orates]

You must have had this argument before, but notice that I did not connect the Last Trump with the 7th Trumpet of Rev. I have seen that argument before- the important point is that the 1st Resurrection/Rapture happens on the "Last Day". What does the last day mean to you and do you agree that the 1st Resurrection and Rapture happen simultaneously? Also, if you found out that the Rapture was not Pre-Trib- would that make any difference in your walk with God?

Orates

 

[Georges]

Last Trump - Rosh Hashanah....the gates of heaven are open.

Great Trump - Yom Kippur.....the gates of heaven are closed.


Vic.....Vic.....glad to see you citing chumney.....

 

[Vic C.]

You must have had this argument before, but notice that I did not connect the Last Trump with the 7th Trumpet of Rev. I have seen that argument before- the important point is that the 1st Resurrection/Rapture happens on the "Last Day". What does the last day mean to you and do you agree that the 1st Resurrection and Rapture happen simultaneously? Also, if you found out that the Rapture was not Pre-Trib- would that make any difference in your walk with God?

Orates

Yes, I certainly did notice you were careful not to connect these trumps.

In all honesty, I can't say the resurrection/harpazio will be on the last day. The Last Day is when HE will physically come back to Earth. That would be the Great Trump, not the Last Trump. The Great Trump is when the Jews are expecting Messiah to come for them. This, for them, is Yom Kippur.

We will be caught up at the Last Trump, which is blown at the beginning of Rosh HaShanah (which is a two day event, so we have no way of knowing which day the Trump will be blown)
__________________________________

When reading 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, I can say the resurrection and harpazio happen simultaneously.

16 ...and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,

Looks to me like the resurrected and the ones who are alive will be caught up together.

Also, if you found out that the Rapture was not Pre-Trib- would that make any difference in your walk with God?

Hey Orates, dod you forget? I'm PreWrath.

 

[Vic C.]

Last Trump - Rosh Hashanah....the gates of heaven are open.

Great Trump - Yom Kippur.....the gates of heaven are closed.


Vic.....Vic.....glad to see you citing chumney.....

Hey George, I didn't even see this post when I posted mine right below yours.

I have quoted that page several times in the last couple of years. It's short but sweet and gets the point across with the minimum of words.

I gotta tell ya; when I first found out about these Trumps of God, their relation to the Feasts and the how they relate to the timing of End Times events, it blew me away and sealed my belief in PreWrath.

Just think George, if the harpazio and the actual return of Messiah to Earth are in the same year (gregorian calendar), we are looking at 10 days between the two events. :o I doubt it though. I think the world will be facing at least a year of God's wrath in total.

 

[Georges]

Just think George, if the harpazio and the actual return of Messiah to Earth are in the same year (gregorian calendar), we are looking at 10 days between the two events. :o I doubt it though. I think the world will be facing at least a year of God's wrath in total.

What ever the case....if we are alive when that occurs....we should be able to recognize the events as they transpire...

 

[Orates]

Your're right Vic- you are Pre-Wrath. Sometimes I get a little confused with who believes what- your post arguing about the Trumps (not Donald) is usually made by Pre-Tribbers. I'm Pre-Day of Wrath and I believe the Rapture happens just before the last day of this age- the Day of Wrath. Even though I was careful not to say that the Last Trump is the same as the 7th Trump of Revelations- that is what I believe- I just like to avoid that argument when talking to Pre-Tribbers. Now that I am on the same page, could you summerize why you do not believe the Trumps are the same?

Thanks- Orates

 

[Orates]

Just an addition here- there is still confusion about what the "Wrath" is and it is important to the Pre-Wrath position. Most everyone agrees that Christians will never see the Wrath of God, but does that mean they are Raptured when wrathful things start happening. Does the Wrath start at the first signs of trouble in the world, at the battle of Armageddon, or sometime later. I believe the Wrath Christians will not see is the "Day of Wrath", which includes a great earthquake, 100 lb hailstones, the destruction of the world's cities, mountains collapsing, islands sinking- you get the picture.

Here is a passage about the Great City being destroyed in one day:

8: Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9: And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10: Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

I don't have the time to go into all the differences between the wrathful things that happen after Midweek and the Wrath with a capital W.

I believe the Rapture happens just before the "Day of Wrath", but we will see a little wrath before that.

Orates

 

[Vic C.]

Now that I am on the same page, could you summerize why you do not believe the Trumps are the same?

Sure... off the top of my head.


We believe the harpazio happens before the angelic trumpets begin, just at or just before the 144,000 are sealed. Notice it is right after annoucement in Revelation 6:17. I can deal with your "day before" theory. It works for me.

The 'great mutitude' are the ones from 1 Thess 4:16-17.

As I quoted from a commentary on the Feasts, the three Trumps of God are just that; trumps of God. Remember in 1 Thess 4:16, it says "...and with the trump of God:..."

On the other hand, the seven trumps of Revelation are angelic trumps, trumpets blown by angels. The trumps of God are blown by the LORD Himself.

In 1 Corinthians 15:52, it says, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Now look at this:

This day, the first day of Tishri, which was the start of the Jewish civil year, was known as Rosh haShanah (the Feast of Trumpets or the Day of Trumpets). "The last month in the seven months' series was always sounded on this New Moon Day. This made it the final trumpets' day."...

... It is stated that early Jews recognized the Day of Trumpets as a type of memorial day. More than our modern versions of the holiday, it was instead a day that was symbolic of the time "when the dead return to rejoin their descendants at the beginning of the year." Martin also quotes Gaster in saying that this was "the time that became a symbol of the Last Trump."

We also rely on the promise in 1 Thessalonians 5:9

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Like I said above, we believe the trumps and vials (bowls) are The Wrath of God (Day of the Lord). I add, "with the worse of the wrath occurring during the bowls."

We also believe the bowls "spill" (pun intended) over into part of the additional 30 day of Daniel 12. ( I know, off topic... I couldn't resist the pun - 8-) )

 

[Georges]

Just wanted to add quickly...In Judaism....

The First and Last Trumps are associated with the Abraham's Ram...

The First Trump (left horn (shofar), lesser in size) was blown at Sinai calling the Israelites to the mountain. This was the First Pentecost (Shavout).

The Last Trump (right horn (shofar), greater in size) is expected to be blown on Rosh Hashanah with one of the themes being the resurrection of the righteous. (Opening of the Gates of Heaven).

The Great Trump always associated with the termination of Yom Kippur during the Neilah (closing of the Gates of heaven).

 

[Vic C.]

That's exactly what I posted above: (excepting the ram and gates of Heaven parts) Thanks for elaborating George. ;-)

In Judaism, there are three trumpets (shofarim) that have a name. They are the first trump, the last trump, and the great trump. Each one of these trumpets indicates a specific day in the Jewish year. The first trump is blown on the Feast of Shavuot (Pentecost) (Exodus [Shemot] 19:19). It proclaimed that G-d had betrothed Himself to Israel. The last trump is synonymous with Rosh HaShanah, according to Theodore Gaster in his book, Festivals of the Jewish Year, in his chapter on Rosh HaShanah. Herman Kieval also states the same thing in his book, The High Holy Days (Volume I, Rosh HaShanah, Chapter 5, Footnote 11), in the chapter on the shofar. The great trumpet is blown on Yom Kippur, which will herald the return of the Messiah Yeshua back to earth

 

[Orates]

Wow, I didn't realize there was that much info on the trumpets. Hey do you or anyone know where I can look at a visual timeline of the trumps. I am a visual learner and it would help me to sort it all out- thanks..

Orates

 

[Vic C.]

This chart best represents what I believe. The line marked "cut short" is only an estimate, since we aren't to know day and hour.

http://www.lookup.org/timeline.htm

 

[jgredline]

While this is really not my fortay I try and keep up with it to a certain extent.

There are many indications that the Rapture may be near. We consider the following as straws in the wind:
1. The formation of the State of Israel in 1948 (Luke 21:29). The fig tree (Israel) is shooting forth, that is, putting forth its leaves (Luke 21:29–31). For the first time in centuries, the Jews have a national existence in their own homeland. This means that the kingdom of God is near.
2. The rise of many other nations (Luke 21:29). Jesus predicted that not only the fig tree would shoot forth but all the trees as well. We have recently witnessed the demise of colonial governments and the proliferation of new nations. It is an era of new nationalism.
3. The return of Israel to the land in unbelief (Ezek. 36:24, 25). Ezekiel prophesied that it would only be after their return that they would be cleansed from their sins. Israel today is largely an agnostic nation; only a small (but very vocal) segment of the people are orthodox Jews.
4. The ecumenical movement (Rev. 17, 18). We understand Babylon the Great to be a vast religious, political, and commercial system made up of apostate religious bodies that profess to be Christian, perhaps a merger of apostate Catholicism and apostate Protestantism. Christendom is becoming increasingly apostate (1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Thess. 2:3) and is moving toward a world super-church.
5. The worldwide increase in Spiritism (1 Tim. 4:1–3). It is sweeping over vast areas of the earth at this moment.
6. The drastic decline of moral standards (2 Tim. 3:1–5). The daily newspapers offer plenty of evidence of this.
7. Violence and civil disobedience (2 Thess. 2:7, 8). A spirit of lawlessness is abounding in the home, in national life, and even in the church.
8. People with a form of godliness but denying its power (2 Tim. 3:5).
9. The rise of the anti-Christian spirit (1 Jn. 2:18), manifested in the multiplication of false cults which profess to be Christian but deny every fundamental doctrine of the faith. They deceive by imitation (2 Tim. 3:8).
10. The tendency for nations to confederate along lines that approximate the line-up of the latter day. The European Common Market, based on what is known as the Treaty of Rome, may lead to the revival of the Roman Empireâ€â€the ten toes of iron and clay (Dan. 2:32–35).
11. Denial of the impending intervention of God in the affairs of the world by way of judgment (2 Pet. 3:3, 4).
To these could be added indications such as earthquakes in many countries, the threat of worldwide famine, and the increasing hostility among nations (Matt. 24:6, 7). The failure of governments to maintain law and order and to suppress terrorism creates the climate for a world dictator. The building of nuclear arsenals gives added meaning to such questions as, “Who is able to make war with him?†i.e., the beast (Rev. 13:4). Worldwide television facilities may be the means for fulfilling Scriptures describing events that will be seen simultaneously all over the planet (Rev. 1:7).
Most of these events are foreseen as occurring before Christ returns to the earth to reign. The Bible does not say they will take place before the Rapture but before His appearing in glory. If that is so, and if we see these trends developing already, then the obvious conclusion is that the Rapture must be near at hand.

 

[JustifiedByFaith]

These passages reveal that the 1st Resurrection/Rapture occur together at the Last Trump on the Last Day of this age.

John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt (at the 2nd Resurrection of the lost after the Millennium on earth).
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet (last), and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other(from the North, South, East, and West).
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The 1st Resurrection/ Rapture happens at the last Trump just before Jesus returns in the clouds. This truth is self evident from the passages above.

Will you recant your belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture now, or wait till after the Final Treaty is signed, when Pre-Trib becomes a moot point?
Orates

I agree Orates! Not only that, but the Apostle Paul says that our gathering together unto Him won't happen UNTIL the apostacy comes 1st AND the man of sin is revealed. The big question for the pre-trib folks is, "How can we be raptured pre-trib if the antichrist has to be revealed 1st?

 

[jgredline]

Good questions and good points.
I have been avoiding this section of the board because at one point or another I have been a post trib, a mid trib and for the past 5 years I am a pre trib.
Alot depends on what chapters or Revelation we are in when we are gone. I believe we are gone between chap 3 and 4. The tru Church of Jesus Christ.
I will go back and read a little bit and as much as I will probably regret it will jump in. Maybe I will be a mid triber after I am done here

 

[Vic C.]

While this is really not my fortay I try and keep up with it to a certain extent.

Welcome! Glad to see you here. I'm no 'expert' either, but I enjoy this topic. Regardless of one's view, I have learned a lot in here and it has indroduced me to plenty of Scripture I may not have given a second thought.

... Israel today is largely an agnostic nation; only a small (but very vocal) segment of the people are orthodox Jews.

Very true. They do consider themselves a secular nation.

... Christendom is becoming increasingly apostate (1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Thess. 2:3) and is moving toward a world super-church.

I'm glad you brought this up. I see 2 Thess 2:3 as meaning apostate, a falling away. I have a different view of who the whore is though... another topic altogether.

Ooh, super church! :o (Matthew 13:31-33)

Most of these events are foreseen as occurring before Christ returns to the earth to reign. The Bible does not say they will take place before the Rapture but before His appearing in glory. If that is so, and if we see these trends developing already, then the obvious conclusion is that the Rapture must be near at hand.

For me, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 tells me two things must happen first, an apostate church (most of it anyway) and the revealing of the man of sin, Antichrist. Hardly imminent, heh? ;)

Feel free to beat me up on these beliefs; most everyone else does. : Pre Wrath is "alien" to many believers.

 

[Vic C.]

I agree Orates! Not only that, but the Apostle Paul says that our gathering together unto Him won't happen UNTIL the apostacy comes 1st AND the man of sin is revealed. The big question for the pre-trib folks is, "How can we be raptured pre-trib if the antichrist has to be revealed 1st?

I have another ally! :angel:

 

[lecoop]

You must have had this argument before, but notice that I did not connect the Last Trump with the 7th Trumpet of Rev. I have seen that argument before- the important point is that the 1st Resurrection/Rapture happens on the "Last Day". What does the last day mean to you and do you agree that the 1st Resurrection and Rapture happen simultaneously? Also, if you found out that the Rapture was not Pre-Trib- would that make any difference in your walk with God?

Orates

If I may be permitted to jump in here and answer this:

I never will find out that the rapture will be after the 70th week. John sees the newly raptured church in heaven, just before the 70th week starts. And he sees them again preparing for the wedding, in heaven before Jesus gets on the white horse.

Coop