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Refuting Preterism

n2thelight

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1. There are serious deficiencies in Preterist teachings, any one of which causes the doctrine to collapse. Allow us to share one, as follows:

2. Revelation 16:12-16 describes how the Battle of Armageddon will commence (or how it did commence - allegedly). So, here is our first question: Who conquered Jerusalem in fulfillment of this prophecy and from where did they come?

3. The Preterist position teaches that this prophecy was fulfilled in the year 70 A.D. when the Roman General Titus and his Roman army conquered Jerusalem.

4. But Rome is virtually due WEST of Jerusalem and the prophecy (Rev 16:12) says that the Euphrates was dried up so that the kings of the EAST could be prepared to make war against Jerusalem at Armageddon.

5. The core teachings of Preterism collapse completely on this passage alone, and make further questions on the matter superfluous.

[Credit and thanks to Irvin Baxter for presenting this line of reasoning.]

Ive presented this question awhile back,maybe I can get an answer this time.........​
 

reba

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A quick look at map of that time shows the Roman Empire to be around the Mediterranean Sea. Part of the army of Rome could have well been north...
 

Sinthesis

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3. The Preterist position teaches that this prophecy was fulfilled in the year 70 A.D. when the Roman General Titus and his Roman army conquered Jerusalem.

4. But Rome is virtually due WEST of Jerusalem and the prophecy (Rev 16:12) says that the Euphrates was dried up so that the kings of the EAST could be prepared to make war against Jerusalem at Armageddon.

[Credit and thanks to Irvin Baxter for presenting this line of reasoning.]

Ive presented this question awhile back,maybe I can get an answer this time.........​
Preterism is not homogeneous, so differences abound. Jerusalem is equated with, and referred to as, Babylon all throughout Revelation. Consider how Cyrus' army entered and took Babylon. Prior to this, they had taken Lydia and Media. At the end of the Roman–Parthian War, Rome was dominate over much of historical Lydia and Media, just as the historical 'Kings of the East', i.e. Persia. In this way Rome was now the 'Kings of the East'. Free from war with Parthia beyond the Euphrates, Rome now had excess Legions which could subdue Judea. Investigate the history of the roman legion X Fretensis.
 

rainbows

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Northern and Southern kingdoms.

The latitude and the longitude of the relevant capitals.

Rome 41° 54' N and 12° 29' E

Jerusalem 31° 47' N and 35° 10' E

One degree of latitude = 60 Nautical miles = 108 miles.

Then 41-31degrees = approximately 10 degrees of latitude difference.

That is 10 degrees of latitude difference between Rome and Jerusalem.

Therefore there is a difference in distance of 1080 miles between Rome and Jerusalem from the perspective of north and south.

Rome would be considered WNW of Jerusalem.

So directly north of Jerusalem on the same longitude is Moscow say, not Rome.

Rome is almost west of Jerusalem, certainly not north by any measure.
 

reba

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Is it to be Rome the city that destroys Jerusalem? Are the buildings of Rome to float across the Mediterranean climb out of the sea bounce through the desert and some how jump on the Temple?

Seems to me Rome is the name given to the government in charge. Looking here i see that the government called Rome was north, south, east and west of Jerusalem.

 
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jasoncran

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dol!!! dont ruin their views and force them to admit that dispy is wrong.
 

Stormcrow

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Book 3

Containing the Interval of About One Year. From Vespasian's Coming To Subdue the Jews To the Taking of Gamala.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Chapter 1
[/FONT]


Vespasian Is Sent Into Syria By Nero In Order To Make War With the Jews.

Upon the whole, he [Nero] sent this man [Vespasian] to take upon him the command of the armies that were in Syria...

So Vespasian sent his son Titus from Achaia, where he had been with Nero, to Alexandria, to bring back with him from thence the fifth and. the tenth legions, while he himself, when he had passed over the Hellespont, came by land into Syria, where he gathered together the Roman forces, with a considerable number of auxiliaries from the kings in that neighborhood.

And now Vespasian took along with him his army from Antioch, (which is the metropolis of Syria, and without dispute deserves the place of the third city in the habitable earth that was under the Roman empire, both in magnitude, and other marks of prosperity,) where he found king Agrippa, with all his forces, waiting for his coming, and marched to Ptolemais.

At this city also the inhabitants of Sepphoris of Galilee met him, who were for peace with the Romans. These citizens had beforehand taken care of their own safety, and being sensible of the power of the Romans, they had been with Cestius Gallus before Vespasian came, and had given their faith to him, and received the security of his right hand, and had received a Roman garrison; and at this time withal they received Vespasian, the Roman general, very kindly, and readily promised that they would assist him against their own countrymen.

Now the general delivered them, at their desire, as many horsemen and footmen as he thought sufficient to oppose the incursions of the Jews, if they should come against them. And indeed the danger of losing Sepphoris would be no small one, in this war that was now beginning, seeing it was the largest city of Galilee, and built in a place by nature very strong, and might be a security of the whole nation's [fidelity to the Romans].

But as Vespasian had a great mind to fall upon Galilee, he marched out of Ptolemais, having put his army into that order wherein the Romans used to march.

And thus did Vespasian march with his army, and came to the bounds of Galilee, where he pitched his camp and restrained his soldiers, who were eager for war; he also showed his army to the enemy, in order to affright them, and to afford them a season for repentance, to see whether they would change their minds before it came to a battle, and at the same time he got things ready for besieging their strong minds.

(Vespasian marched his legions into Galilee from the north (Antioch) and took the cities of Gadara, Sepphoris, Jotapata, Joppa, Tiberias, and Gischala, among others.)

And thus was all Galilee taken, but this not till after it had cost the Romans much pains before it could be taken by them.

Flavius Josephus, Wars of the Jews

Here is a map of the Roman conquest of Israel, beginning with Vespasian's march out of Antioch:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/images/assault_maps/assault-map_israel_01.jpg

Irvin Baxter is wrong. Vespasian and Titus marched their forces through Armageddon on their way to Jerusalem, encamping there along the way, thus fulfilling this prophecy:

And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon. Revelation 16:16 (NASB)

Don't be misled by so-called Bible scholars who make money from other people's ignorance.

And here is a map of Israel highlighting Antioch, from which Vespasian marched his armies into Judea:

http://tinyurl.com/6qvocet

Sure looks like his armies came out of the north to me!
 
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Stormcrow

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The core teachings of Preterism collapse completely on this passage alone, and make further questions on the matter superfluous.
It might pay people to read more than Irvin Baxter and the other futurist/dispy hustlers out there.
 

Vic C.

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Not a Preterist, but...

Is it to be Rome the city that destroys Jerusalem? Are the buildings of Rome to float across the Mediterranean climb out of the sea bounce through the desert and some how jump on the Temple?

Seems to me Rome is the name given to the government in charge. Looking here i see that the government called Rome was north, south, east and west of Jerusalem.
Reba is correct. Don't get hung up on the geographical locations of two cities when Rome in prophecy usually refers to the actual political Empire and all they inhabited.
 

n2thelight

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Okay,so much for directions....Let's try this one........

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


Where are these people?

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

How many last trumps are there,and when is this change?
 

jasoncran

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there is difference tween the partial preterist and the full preterist.
 

Stormcrow

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But Rome is virtually due WEST of Jerusalem and the prophecy (Rev 16:12) says that the Euphrates was dried up so that the kings of the EAST could be prepared to make war against Jerusalem at Armageddon.

5. The core teachings of Preterism collapse completely on this passage alone, and make further questions on the matter superfluous.
Okay,so much for directions....Let's try this one........
I thought any further questions after your blindingly brilliant refutation were superfluous. :lol

You're so dead certain you've got these other verses nailed down - just the way you were so sure of your airtight case against Rome fulfilling Revelation 16. You are consistently wrong about these things and yet you cling to your beliefs despite all reason and logic. I wonder - would any amount of evidence convince you you're misinterpreting those passages?

If not, why bother? :shrug Why waste my time and yours putting the evidence out there to disprove you again, only to have you ignore it?

I'm through debating this stuff with people who aren't open-minded. There are more than enough resources on the web you can search to find the answers to your questions (rhetorical and otherwise). I'm not going to address rhetorical questions anymore. It's simply a waste of my time and energy with some people.
 
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n2thelight

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I thought any further questions after your blindingly brilliant refutation were superfluous. :lol

You're so dead certain you've got these other verses nailed down - just the way you were so sure of your airtight case against Rome fulfilling Revelation 16. You are consistently wrong about these things and yet you cling to your beliefs despite all reason and logic. I wonder - would any amount of evidence convince you you're misinterpreting those passages?

If not, why bother? :shrug Why waste my time and yours putting the evidence out there to disprove you again, only to have you ignore it?

I'm through debating this stuff with people who aren't open-minded. There are more than enough resources on the web you can search to find the answers to your questions (rhetorical and otherwise). I'm not going to address rhetorical questions anymore. It's simply a waste of my time and energy with some people.
I'm still convinced,of Rev 16......Too think that all prophecy has been fulfilled,is foolishness to me,so I will keep talking about it.....As for your evidence,you havn't shown any.....

So since you can't answer,maybe someone else can,so my question remains,when was the last trump and the change?
 

n2thelight

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Luke 21:24 "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

When was the times of the Gentiles fulfilled?

Matthew 24:23 "Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ,' or 'there,' believe it not."

Matthew 24:26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, 'Behold, He is in the desert;' go not forth: 'Behold, He is in the secret chambers;' believe it not."

Christ just said ,believe nothing you say concerning His return,if someone has to tell you it happened,it hasn't......

Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

Now since this has already happened,can someone give me the date?

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

End of what,what are we living now to endure,just living until we die?

 

n2thelight

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When did the below happen as per ad70

Revelation 11:8 "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sod'-om and E'-gypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

Revelation 11:9 "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."

Revelation 11:10 "And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."

Revelation 11:11 "And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them."

Revelation 11:12 "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

If this question has already been answered,please direct me to where and I shall go from there,if not,please answer.......
 

n2thelight

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What you all(preturist)fail or just plain refuse to understand is that, evil has not always been on this earth.....

The point of Christ 2nd coming, is to remove, all that offends....Meaning all evil(sin)will cease to be on this earth.......So you can say anything you want about Christ having returned already,but until evil is removed,Christ has not returned......

Bottom line,evil in no form whatsoever shall exist on this earth,be it from satan,evil spirits or man himself...........

In the Lord’s supper we “proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes†(1 Cor. 11:26). If 70 A.D. was the Lord’s second coming, then disciples should have ceased partaking of the Lord’s supper in 70 A.D.

This theory requires a re-interpretation of many plain passages and undermines basic Bible teaching about our worship and hope. If we are to partake of the Lord’s supper “till He comes†and He has already come, there is no purpose in partaking of the Lord’s supper today to remind us of the crucifixion of Christ and look forward to the resurrection on the last day (Jn. 6:39,40,44,54; 12:48).

Matthew 24:6 "And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."

As long as there are wars Christ has not come....Let me show you when He shall...

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

There has never ever been total peace in the world but it shall be all though false and now lets see who brings it

Daniel 8:25
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.


So simple but there's a reason why some can't see,it's for their own good..........
 

Stormcrow

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Vic C.

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People? Can we please make our points without pointing fingers?

So simple but there's a reason why some can't see,it's for their own good..........
Your choice to ignore does not constitute my failure to provide it.
If I had a teacher that was trying to literally ram their studies down my throat all the time and belittle me too, I'd be vomiting and would probably develop a complex. :lol

:verysick


Say what you have to say, make it convincing (and scriptural) and all who have ears and eyes to hear and see... will.:nod
 

Stormcrow

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People? Can we please make our points without pointing fingers?

If I had a teacher that was trying to literally ram their studies down my throat all the time and belittle me too, I'd be vomiting and would probably develop a complex.

Say what you have to say, make it convincing (and scriptural) and all who have ears and eyes to hear and see... will.:nod
That's exactly how I approach these discussions, Vic. I post verses, historical information from Josephus, Eusebius, Tacitus, etc, as evinced by this post here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=42998&p=650437&viewfull=1#post650437

However, when I sometimes put hours of work into research only to be greeted with responses like this:

As for your evidence,you havn't shown any.....
I get quite angry. It would be one thing to say, "I disagree with your research and here is my own." But people here - for the most part - don't do that. They respond with nonsense like that, cited above, and then expect respect for their views!

As a mod, you don't get treated with the same snide comments and contempt that normal members get because you have the power to do something about them. I'm not asking for the power to banish insolence. I'm asking for a little more latitude (especially in this forum) for people to defend themselves and their work from outrageous and nonsensical accusations like those cited above.
 

Jock

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Hi,

Rev ch 16 could not have occured yet because just look at the text-

Rev 16:1


And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev 16:2

And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
Rev 16:3

And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Rev 16:4

And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
Rev 16:5

And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
Rev 16:6

For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev 16:7

And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
Rev 16:8

And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9

And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10

And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11

And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Rev 16:12

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16

And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17

And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18

And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19

And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20

And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21

And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Jock.
 

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