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Refuting Preterism

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Here is a look at what is described by Zechariah, as the Lord Coming with His saints, which Paul describes in 1 Thessalonians.

1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light.
Zechariah 14:1-7

Zechariah - Day of the Lord, saints coming with Him.


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4


1 Thessalonians - Day of the Lord, saints coming with Him.

Same Event.


I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
Zechariah 14:1-4


...Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.



JLB

Yes, we go with the Lord to battle, we go with him. You base this on the assumption He comes just once at the end with the angels, bright light and trumpets after the Sun goes dark, the stars get rolled up, and the moon gets dark. 1/2 hour of silence on the whole earth, people try to hide from the face of the lamb, and BAM here He comes with us.

Your not accounting the Part where he grabbed His Church before the Tribulation started for the rest of the earth. You need to factor that in, then add what you posted me and you have down perfect.

Mike.

There is a Day of Christ, the Day of the Lord's anointed, and there is a Day of the Lord, judgement.

they are spelled different JLB, two different days.

Mike again after edit and thinking what more to say.
 
Your not accounting the Part where he grabbed His Church before the Tribulation started for the rest of the earth. You need to factor that in, then add what you posted me and you have down perfect.

I don't need to factor in some preconceived doctrinal beliefs, Brother.

I just need to renew my mind with the truth of God's word.

1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light.
Zechariah 14:1-7

Zechariah - Day of the Lord, saints coming with Him.


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4


1 Thessalonians - Day of the Lord, saints coming with Him.

Same Event.


I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
Zechariah 14:1-4


...Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.


Zechariah 14 and 1 Thessalonians teach us the Lord comes with His saints on the Day of the Lord.

If you don't agree that these are the same event, then show from these scriptures as to why you think these are different events.

Same Lord coming with His saints in both scriptures.




JLB
 
But the pope claims sole ownership to the keys of the kingdom..

200px-Coat_of_arms_Holy_See.svg.png


tob

That wouldn't make him antichrist.
 
Makes zero sense.

The Olivet Discourse is teaching from Zechariah's Prophecy.

The same Lord that comes with His saints in Zechariah 14, is the same Lord who comes with His saints in Mark 13.

Which means for your Preterism that both the Olivet Discourse and Zechariah 14 have absolutely nothing to do with 70 AD!



JLB

I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
 
I don't need to factor in some preconceived doctrinal beliefs, Brother.

I just need to renew my mind with the truth of God's word.

1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
6
It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light.
Zechariah 14:1-7

Zechariah - Day of the Lord, saints coming with Him.


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4


1 Thessalonians - Day of the Lord, saints coming with Him.

Same Event.


I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
Zechariah 14:1-4


...Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.


Zechariah 14 and 1 Thessalonians teach us the Lord comes with His saints on the Day of the Lord.

If you don't agree that these are the same event, then show from these scriptures as to why you think these are different events.

Same Lord coming with His saints in both scriptures.




JLB

no Mike do not call your brothers and sisters in the Lord evil reba
 
Last edited by a moderator:

reply to a deleted post reba
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

Jesus was teaching His disciples from Zechariah 14, which is about His Coming with His saints at the end of the age, not 70 AD.

The Olivet Discourse has nothing whatsoever to do with 70 AD.


That's the point I have made.


JLB
 
Preterism has many forms and just as many angels held by the various proponents. The bulk of the flawed sights therein reside on attempts to eradicate or mitigate Gods Words only to certain people at certain times, such as the "two" Gospel spiel they attempt between Israel, under law, and christians under grace. That's just one minor example.

Did Jesus present that God's Words were to be handled in that fashion, by various Edward Scissor hands theologians? Uh, no. Jesus said that man shall live by every Word of God. Take it from there. Luke 4:4, Matt. 4:4
 
I guess your one of those who don't believe God can protect His Children, here on earth like for example:

Noah - Noah was protected during God's judgement in the Ark.

Three Hebrew Children - These were cast into the fire for their faithfulness to God, and not bowing down to the image of the world ruler.
These serve as a type of those who will not bow down to the image of the beast, during the tribulation.

23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished; and he rose in haste and spoke, saying to his counselors, “Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?”They answered and said to the king, “True, O king.”

25 “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God... 27 And the satraps, administrators, governors, and the king’s counselors gathered together, and they saw these men on whose bodies the fire had no power; the hair of their head was not singed nor were their garments affected, and the smell of fire was not on them.

Daniel in the Lion's Den -
19 Then the king arose very early in the morning and went in haste to the den of lions.20 And when he came to the den, he cried out with a lamenting voice to Daniel. The king spoke, saying to Daniel, “Daniel, servant of the living God, has your God, whom you serve continually, been able to deliver you from the lions?”

21 Then Daniel said to the king, “O king, live forever! 22 My God sent His angel and shut the lions’ mouths, so that they have not hurt me, because I was found innocent before Him; and also, O king, I have done no wrong before you.”

23 Now the king was exceedingly glad for him, and commanded that they should take Daniel up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no injury whatever was found on him, because he believed in his God. Daniel 6:19-23


God is well able to protect His people on earth.

As for your Locust's...

3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. Revelation 9:3-4


Brother Mike, please put down the "Koolaide" your drinking and read God's word.



JLB

Right, and your not labelled with the 144,000 who were given a seal on your forehead, so I won't be around beating those locust off ya. I suggest stocking up on some RAID.
 
Right, and your not labelled with the 144,000 who were given a seal on your forehead, so I won't be around beating those locust off ya. I suggest stocking up on some RAID.


If you want to be taken seriously then please use scripture.

Of course if you did, then your "pre-trib" doctrine would fall apart.

God is well able to protect His people on earth.

As for your Locust's...
3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. Revelation 9:3-4



JLB
 
If you all like having this discussion watch the attacks .. I will use the options offered to moderators.. reba
 
Uh Oh hope i don't get one of these.. :chair

The Reformation preachers unanimously identified the papal system as the Antichrist, and the Roman Church as Babylon—causing a mass exodus of believers out of the Catholic institution.

Because Rome realized that the Reformation could jeopardize her position as a religio-political power, she employed five strategies in what became known as the Counter Reformation. One of those strategies was the creation of futurism and preterism, two different interpretations of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation. These interpretations contradicted the reformers' stance of historicism.

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/RT_encyclopedia_Futurism_Preterism_Catholic

tob
 
Okay,so much for directions....Let's try this one........

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


Where are these people?

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

How many last trumps are there,and when is this change?
If you look at it in a metaphorical sense, sort of like how Adam and Eve "died" when really, It was a spiritual death, therefore, this ressurection is probably spiritual too. (Not counting Jesus' ressurection, that was physical)
 
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