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turnorburn said:
Hi Dan do you like to read no not skipping over portions here and there.. by reading i mean reading with understanding. A book i read some 40 years ago isn't a large book as large books go its full of knowledge vast quantities of knowledge. Its been read by hundreds of thousands of history buffs i assume you like history.. and out of those hundreds of thousands not one person has found ay holes in his findings the mans name is Alexander Hislop the title of the book is The Two Babylons..

Get ready for a wild ride..:thumbsup

http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/

tob
Click to expand...

Before I get involved in another in a long line of "the Papacy is Babylon" claims, answer me one question:

How many prophets have the Papacy kill?
 
Acts 2: 4 - And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

1 Cor 14: 22 - Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

The moment you believe/trust in what The Lord Jesus Christ has done for you(1 Cor 15: 3-4)(Eph 2: 8-9) you are baptized with the Holy Spirit...Who seals you until the day of redemption and guides you in all truths. There all no apostlistic signs today. They are for the Jews, who requires signs.
 
veryberry said:
The seven churches(though at the time were actual churches) represent seven time periods. I believe we are in the laodicean time period now leading up to the time of Jacobs trouble. You can also look at them as 7 different types of Christians.....don't be a laodicean...these seem to be the only apostates(false converts)...Put your trust only on the the Lord Jesus Christ who died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day according to the scriptures(1 Cor. 15 3-4) and on nothing else, for nothing else can save you but the Lord Jesus Christ(see Eph 2: 8-9 and Rom 11: 6). Then you have a picture of the rapture in ch.4 leading up to the rise of the antichrist. Try to look at the sets of judgements as you would the 4 gospels. They are not in chronological order but rather all happening at roughly the same time. It gets confusing when it seems that Christs' second advent happens more then once when really it is once, just described in a few different ways.
Click to expand...

Veryberry,

There is no scriptural or historic proof whatsoever for anything regarding the Seven Churches in Asia other than they were Seven Churches in Asia in the first century A.D. That stuff you believe was made up out of thin air by Cyrus I. Scofield, or another Darbyite, (or some other convicted felon.) This is Scofield on the seven Churches:

"(4) prophetic, as disclosing seven phases of the spiritual history of the church from, say, A.D. 96 to the end. It is incredible that in a prophecy covering the church period, there should be no such foreview. These messages must contain that foreview if it is in the book at all, for the church does not appear after Rev 3.22. Again, these messages by their very terms go beyond the local assemblies mentioned. Most conclusively of all, these messages do present an exact foreview of the spiritual history of the church, and in this precise order. Ephesus gives the general state at the date of the writing; Smyrna, the period of the great persecutions; Pergamos, the church settled down in the world, "where Satan's throne is," after the conversion of Constantine, say A.D. 316. Thyatira is the Papacy, developed out of the Pergamos state: Balaamism (worldliness) and Nicolaitanism (priestly assumption) having conquered. As Jezebel brought idolatry into Israel, Song Romanism weds Christian doctrine to pagan ceremonies. Sardis is the Protestant Reformation, whose works were not "fulfilled." Philadelphia is whatever bears clear testimony to the Word and the Name in the time of self-satisfied profession represented by Laodicea."

Notice there are no supporting scriptural references, no historical footnotes, no crystal ball readings, no visions from God, nothing. Scofield made it up out of thin air, or, in other words, he did what he claimed others do: he spiritualized the scripture.

Dan
 
Never read Scofield. I read and listen to Peter Ruckman, Greggory Miller, Michael Pearl, Brian Dilenger(husky394xp) on youtube.

I believe what I believe. I believe that Christ has not reigned on earth for 1000 years and that we are not living on a new earth in glorified bodies which the book of Rev teaches. I also think the Roman Catholic Church is Mystery Babylon and will be rising to power soon under the authority of the antichrist.

and
are good videos describing why.
 
veryberry said:
Never read Scofield. I read and listen to Peter Ruckman, Greggory Miller, Michael Pearl, Brian Dilenger(husky394xp) on youtube.

I believe what I believe. I believe that Christ has not reigned on earth for 1000 years and that we are not living on a new earth in glorified bodies which the book of Rev teaches. I also think the Roman Catholic Church is Mystery Babylon and will be rising to power soon under the authority of the antichrist.

and
are good videos describing why.
Click to expand...

If they taught you that about the Seven Churches and the Roman Catholic Church, it is almost a certainty that Peter Ruckman, Greggory Miller, Michael Pearl, and Brian Dilenger are Scofield disciples.

For the record, the book of the Revelation does NOT teach that Christ will be on earth reigning from an earthly throne at any time, nor does any other prophecy. Recall:

". . .My kingdom is not of this world:" (John 18:16)

"The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all." (Psalms 103:19)

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (Rev 3:21)

"Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord" (Acts 7:49)

". . .the Lord's throne is in heaven . . ." (Psalms 11:4)

I don't see how it can be any clearer.

Dan
 
Eugene, you have not answered my question from a previous post. I am reposting with context:

"Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand." (Rev 22:10)

I am curious. What do you think “shortly come to pass” means in that context, Eugene?

Thanks,
Dan
 
It should read how many Saints have the papists killed we Christians are all Saints in the eyes of the almighty..

tob
 
Dan00 said:
Before I get involved in another in a long line of "the Papacy is Babylon" claims
Click to expand...

Its about 280 pages not one person could find him wrong in his findings reading your posts i thought you might be interested in facts not fiction... :yes

tob
 
turnorburn said:
It should read how many Saints have the papists killed we Christians are all Saints in the eyes of the almighty..

tob
Click to expand...

I believe my question should read exactly the way I wrote it, for this reason:

"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Rev 18:24, Babylon)

“Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.” (Rev 18:20, Babylon)

On second thought, maybe I should change it to read:

"How may prophets and apostles has the Papacy killed?

Thanks,
Dan
 
turnorburn said:
Dan00 said:

Its about 280 pages not one person could find him wrong in his findings reading your posts i thought you might be interested in facts not fiction... :yes

tob
Click to expand...

I found him wrong, and all I did was glance over his introduction and conclusion. For example, he expounded on this quote:

"The Apocalypse announces two falls of Babylon. The fall referred to above is evidently only the first. The prophecy clearly implies, that after the first fall it rises to a greater height than before; and therefore the necessity of the warning."

The Revelation did not announce two "falls." They are one in the same, and there is not one shred of evidence they are different.

I was taken aback by this:

"There never has been any difficulty in the mind of any enlightened Protestant in identifying the woman "sitting on seven mountains," and having on her forehead the name written, "Mystery, Babylon the Great," with the Roman apostacy."

He can "never" be found wrong, because anyone who disagrees with him is obviously "unenlightened," or not a Protestant. That was the technique Scofield used to marginalize his critics. Why not simply give us the facts, along with the scripture to back it up?

He was a "band-wagoner." Most likely every "Protestant" leader after the Reformation believed the worst about the Papacy, and for good reason. Calvin's commentaries are littered with comments about the Papacy, even in a book like the Lamentations, of all places.

These are questions for you, since you have read his work. Maybe you ran across them:

What did he say about God avenging the blood of the apostles and prophets on Babylon The Great? (Note: Jesus said the blood of all the prophets would fall on Jerusalem.)

What did he say about the two witnesses being killed in Jerusalem?

What did he say about the plague of stones the weight of a talent that also being written about in an eerily similar way by an early historian who was on the scene during the destruction of Jerusalem?

How does he explain these comparisons between Jerusalem and Babylon the Great?

“… for in one hour is she made desolate.” (Revelation 18:19, Babylon)

“Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” (Matthew 23:38, Jerusalem)

“Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.” (Jereremian 7:34, Jerusalem)

“And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee . . .And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee:” (Revelation 18:23-24, Babylon)

Thanks,
Dan























What did he say about God avenging the blood of the prophets and apostles on Babylon the Great?

What about the "hail" out of heaven? Is that in the future, or did he mention it as fulfilled?
What did he say about God avenging the blood of the prophets and apostles on Babylon the Great?

What about the "hail" out of heaven? Is that in the future, or did he mention it as fulfilled?
What did he say about God avenging the blood of the prophets and apostles on Babylon the Great?

What about the "hail" out of heaven? Is that in the future, or did he mention it as fulfilled?
 
The book is unlike any other book on the subject without reading it a person can speculate until the cows come home and still not arrive at a conclusion.. its a comparison of the two systems telling us that they are identically the same but you won't know that until you read it.. :)

tob
 
turnorburn said:
I knew there was something about Preterism that sounded fishy then tonight i found this which explains it quite well..

Preterism holds that the contents of Revelation constitute a prophecy of events that were fulfilled in the 1st century.[57]Preterism was first expounded by the "Jesuit" Luis de Alcasar during the Counter Reformation.[9][58] The preterist view served to bolster the Catholic Church's position against attacks by Protestants,[11][12] who identified the Pope with the Anti-Christ.

Expounded by a Jesuit..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism

tob
Click to expand...

Alcasar was not the first or the earliest. According to your reference Wiki.

"One of the earliest references to preterism comes from Eusebius of Caesarea (c. AD 263 – 339). In his 'Theophania' he states:.......The manner moreover of the captivity, points out the war of which He spoke; "For (said He) there shall be (great) tribulation upon the land, and great wrath upon this people : and they shall fall by the edge of the sword." We can learn too, from the writings of Flavius Josephus, how these things took place in their localities, and how those, which had been foretold by our Saviour, were, in fact, fulfilled. ... On this account He said, "Let those who are in its borders not enter into it, since these are the days of vengeance, that all may be fulfilled which has been written." Any one therefore, who desires it, may learn the results of these things from the writings of Josephus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism

What is the history of the futurist view? Is there something fishy here to? See bold section especially.
"The futurist interpretation of Revelation and Daniel has been around since the earliest centuries of the Christian Church. Irenaeus of Lyon, for instance, was of the view that Daniel's 70th week awaited a future fulfillment.[2] During the Middle Ages and the Reformation, futuristic interpretations were virtually non-existent, however. To counter the Protestant interpretation of historicism,[3] Roman Catholic Jesuit Francisco Ribera (1537–1591) wrote a 500 page commentary on the Book of Revelation. This commentary established the futurist interpretation of Bible prophecy"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurism_(Christianity)

It would seem there were several Jesuits working to try to discredit the historical view during the Reformation and they were willing to use earlier writings to do that.
 
turnorburn said:
The book is unlike any other book on the subject without reading it a person can speculate until the cows come home and still not arrive at a conclusion.. its a comparison of the two systems telling us that they are identically the same but you won't know that until you read it.. :)

tob
Click to expand...

tob,

I haven't the slightest bit of interest in reading about the papacy, or the two "systems," or any related composition. I saw through that line of "reasoning" almost the instant I read it, many months ago. I did, however, read a small portion of the website you linked to as a courtesy. You have my opinion.

Now, if you would show me some courtesy and answer, at least, the first question I asked regarding the number of the Prophets the Papacy killed, I would appreciate it.

Dan
 
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