Bible Study Rightly interpreting 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

[guibox]

FineLinen mentioned this in the 'Ministering to the disobedient dead' thread and I felt that it needed to be addressed in another thread.

The Lord Jesus Christ has a large contingent of hagios who are coming with Him in His epiphaneia; that number is innumerable and countless, and may have not received aphtharsia as this juncture

Many people look at the phrase "will God bring with Him" to mean that all the saints in heaven who've died and 'gone on', will be coming down so their souls can inhabit their bodies. There are a few problems with this view:

1) This interpretation wrongly assumes and reads into the text that man has an immortal soul that needs to come back to its body
2) It contradicts and makes meaningless the rest of the passage that places so much emphasis on resurrection.
3) It ignores the surrounding verses that structurally explain the phrase 'will God bring with Him' and that also become meaningless and redundant in light of that interpretation.

Look at the first part...

Brothers I wouldn't have you to be ignorant concerning them which are asleep - vs 13

Literally,' those who have died in the faith'. What's going to happen for those who've 'gone on'? Interesting that throughout the whole NT, when it comes to explain the fate of the righteous and eternal life, Paul preaches the resurrection and not immortality of the soul. And just to further reiterate that life is in resurrection he continue...

That you sorrow not even as others which have no hope - vs 14

Two things here:

1) Why sorrow if the souls of loved ones are already enjoying bliss of heaven?
2) Those 'who have no hope' means those not inheriting eternal life.

In other words Paul is saying, "Don't fret about you loved ones who died like those who don't have the hope of eternal life! They will not be as such. There is hope!" The second coming is the blessed hope of eternal life! We don't have to sorrow as those who are lost forever because we will be raised to life!

Now here is the crux of the argument...

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him - vs 15

We must look at the meaning of what is said before 'will God bring with Him'. "FOR IF we believe that Jesus DIED and ROSE again." What about it, what if we believe in this resurrection of Christ? It is further explained and relevant to what was just said:

'EVEN SO'... In some bibles this is directly translated rightly 'in the same manner of'....them also which sleep in Jesus'

The bible makes it plain that those which are sleeping are in their graves dead. It makes no sense to say that those which are sleeping are being brought down to earth. They are therefore not sleeping, but awake in some form. It is redundant to talk about the dead in their graves sleeping the sleep of death and at the same time talk about them coming with Christ in the same breath.

'will God bring with Him'.

Let's look at this phrase, 'will God bring with Him'. It is the Son of man coming to His kingdom, not God the Father. The scriptures constantly say this. It doesn't make any sense to interpret it like this:

'Even so them also which are sleeping in their graves, God the Father will bring down from heaven with Christ the Son'

What we do know is that God raised the Son from the depths of the grave (Acts 2:34)

When we see the logic of the verse, the phrases 'if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them which sleep in Jesus' make a whole lot sense. What it is saying is this:

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, in the same manner will God raise those who are asleep in Christ the same way."

Which then shows us HOW.

For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God - vs 16

I am usually afraid of paraphrase editions because they usually take traditional interpretation of a verse instead of what the context says. However, the Message bible got this verse dead on, even better than the KJV. Look at this!

And regarding the question, friends, that has come up about what happens to those already dead and buried, we don't want you in the dark any longer. First off, you must not carry on over them like people who have nothing to look forward to, as if the grave were the last word. Since Jesus died and broke loose from the grave, God will most certainly bring back to life those who died in Jesus

This is right on and instead of adding confusion like many paraphrases, completely cleans up any ambiguity and stays true to the context.

Notice what Paul says at the end

Wherefore comfort one another with these words - vs 17

It would make no sense to 'sorrow' or to 'be comforted' if we knew that our loved ones are in heaven. However, Paul reiterated again to the Corinthians that our hope lies in the resurrection and that without it, 'those that have fallen asleep in Christ are perished' - 1 Corinthians 15:18

SUMMARY

To ignore the phrase "if we believe that Jesus died and rose again" to help explain it is to make this verse a meaningless 'island' in the passage. Rather, it further helps us understand. If we can believe that, we belive that God raised Christ from the dead 'of which we are all witnesses'. Then God will bring those who've died in the same manner as Christ was raised. Paul emphasises this fact in 1 Corinthians 15.

You cannot logically and structurally throw in a completely misplaced reference to 'souls coming down from heaven' into this passage.

 

[Michael A Disciple]

An excellent post!

 

[City Of God]

Those returning with Jesus are obviously his Holy Angels, it is quite clear to anyone who has ever done the homework. Jesus spoke many times of the Son of Man returning with his Holy Angels in the gospels. Also, the quote from Jude is taken from Enoch whose writings concern mostly the working of Angels. The greek word used for "saints" in the Jude passage is used interchangeably between believers and Angels.

 

[guibox]

Those returning with Jesus are obviously his Holy Angels, it is quite clear to anyone who has ever done the homework. Jesus spoke many times of the Son of Man returning with his Holy Angels in the gospels. Also, the quote from Jude is taken from Enoch whose writings concern mostly the working of Angels. The greek word used for "saints" in the Jude passage is used interchangeably between believers and Angels.

Actually, CoG, the verse in Jude could be speaking about believing saints. The reason being is that this is not describing Christ's second coming but after the 1000 years. Look closely at the verse:

See the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousand of his holy ones...to judge everyone and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him - Jude 14

The word 'everyone' is talking about those left on the earth which are the wicked. Their is no mention at all of the reward of the righteous but the clarifiying statement of who 'everyone' is and what is going to happen to 'everyone'. This is when the New Jerusalem comes down and the executive judgment falls upon the wicked. At the second coming, nothing is done with the wicked people who have already died throughout the ages. The ones living are automatically destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming.

What is being described in Jude is a final judgment events being spoken about in Revelation 20:1-14. Christ and all the saints descend from heaven in the New Jerusalem and the wicked try to attack it. Their judgment occurs.

 

[City Of God]

Your post is so far off base I hardly no where to start, except to ask where are you getting your information from? Is it from God's word or from paper back profits?

1. Believers will not be in heaven prior to the second coming of Jesus Christ.

2. Jesus Christ will only return once

3. When Jesus returns all will stand before his judgement seat this includes believers and unbelievers

4. As I said before it is clear from the book of Enoch and the Gospels that it is Angels Jesus returns with and not believers and also from the epistles it is clear that believers will be on the Earth when Jesus returns with his Angels: Matthew 25:31 Matthew 13:49 Matthew 16:27 Mark 8:38 Luke 9:26

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/eno ... tchers.htm

If Jesus was going to be returning with Christians he would have mentioned it.

 

[guibox]

Your post is so far off base I hardly no where to start, except to ask where are you getting your information from? Is it from God's word or from paper back profits?

1. Believers will not be in heaven prior to the second coming of Jesus Christ.

2. Jesus Christ will only return once

3. When Jesus returns all will stand before his judgement seat this includes believers and unbelievers

4. As I said before it is clear from the book of Enoch and the Gospels that it is Angels Jesus returns with and not believers and also from the epistles it is clear that believers will be on the Earth when Jesus returns with his Angels: Matthew 25:31 Matthew 13:49 Matthew 16:27 Mark 8:38 Luke 9:26

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/eno ... tchers.htm

If Jesus was going to be returning with Christians he would have mentioned it.

Whoa! Where's the fire? Easy now!

I never said that anyone is going to be in heaven before the second coming. Didn't you read my initial post? That should have told you where I stood on that issue.

What I'm saying is, is that Jude is not speaking about the second coming because it speaks of convicting those who have sinned of their evil ways. This doesn't occur at the second coming of Christ. This occurs at the final judgment when 'every knee shall bow' in recognition that God was truly just in His ways.

Christ's second coming is primarily to take His children home, not to judge the wicked. Initially they are destroyed by the brightness of His coming. There is no time for any executive judgment. The wicked won't even have time to scream nevermind cogitate and be convicted on their evil ways.

Matthew 25 seems like it is speaking about the second coming, and it may. However, I believe that both events are being spoken about in Matthew 25 as a summary of events talking about the fate of the wicked. Matthew 25:41-46 does NOT occur at the second coming of Christ. What occurs here is what happens in Revelation 20.

I don't believe Matthew 25 was meant to be taken as exactly chronological (i.e. the events are happening at the same time) but as a relative order, both of the second coming and the final judgment. As far as the wicked are concerned, each event follows the other. They die, they are resurrected and judged. This happens in that order

I don't believe that the saints coming with Christ are people. I agree that they are angels. What I'm saying is is that:

1) 'Will God bring with Him' isn't talking about people OR angels coming to earth but how the dead will be resurrected

2) That you can't read the second coming into Jude in its context. You may be right. However, the judgment that occurs seems to be talking about the very end after the 1000 years.

And for future reference, perhaps you need to cool your jets and look at the posts to make sure there is a fight there.