Salvation: A study of lost and found

[JohnDB]

Sheep are really dumb animals...
Purely reactionary.
They follow the tail of the creature in front of them. Goats don't. And they tend to be stubborn.
Sheep will go after a clump of grass on a cliff...or wander away to find the water they smell...or will simply follow a stubborn goat.

 

[GodsGrace]

Dogs weren't used that I know about.
Mostly because it was children doing the shepherding. (Children could run...adults never ran they strolled everywhere)

It's hard to imagine a six year old (or younger) heading out into the wilderness herding a flock of sheep and/or goats... possibly spending the night with them in the wilderness. But it was normal then. Today Child Protective Services would be called for even suggesting such a thing.

Adults or adolescents who did any shepherding were pretty much too stupid to do anything else for a living.

By children you must surely mean a young adult...a teenager?

Here it's done by adult men with a dog.

And again you show how we're not to take each word of the bible very literally...Jesus told parables to teach a moral lesson....using ideas and concepts of the day...and jobs of the day.

It's the lesson we should be concerned with.
There is a fold,,,a flock...

One departs from the flock and gets lost.
God desires all to be saved....
He looks for the sheep and the sheep comes back.

In the parable of the Prodigal Son,,instead,,,
it's the SON that comes back to the Father...sans having the Father look for him.

I think the important part of this and the moral lesson to be learned is that we could become lost and then go back to the Father...He will never turn us down.

 

[JohnDB]

By children you must surely mean a young adult...a teenager?

Here it's done by adult men with a dog.

And again you show how we're not to take each word of the bible very literally...Jesus told parables to teach a moral lesson....using ideas and concepts of the day...and jobs of the day.

It's the lesson we should be concerned with.
There is a fold,,,a flock...

One departs from the flock and gets lost.
God desires all to be saved....
He looks for the sheep and the sheep comes back.

In the parable of the Prodigal Son,,instead,,,
it's the SON that comes back to the Father...sans having the Father look for him.

I think the important part of this and the moral lesson to be learned is that we could become lost and then go back to the Father...He will never turn us down.

By children I mean small children...
Ones barely as tall as the sheep. I've seen them do it and not be able to see over the sheep well enough to know definitively where they were going. (Carrying and using a long stick (3 meters at least) to assist in keeping the sheep together and keep them from getting strung out.

 

[stovebolts]

This is a deep study SB....

We can surely say that the shepherd represents God.
Also, I think we need to remember that these gospels were written a long time after Jesus' ascension. This does not mean that they are wrong...but sometimes the writers did
compress information. Jesus might not have said exactly every word as we have it...or two events have been woven into one. This is why I've said to a member here that we cannot hang on to every word with our life. There has to be some lee-way and a basic understanding of God's nature and what He desires from us.

As to lost sheep...there are shepherds here even today.
I can tell you that he WILL leave the flock to go after one. This is because the lost sheep will most probably not find his way back but only go further and further (although anything is possible, of course).

The flock will tend to stay together...also there is a dog there that will keep the flock together. I wonder if JohnDB knows if dogs were used back then?

Of course, it the task becomes too difficult or it takes too long, the shepherd will give up looking for the sheep. So are we to assume that God will stop looking for us? No. This is not what Jesus meant to say...He plainly said that the sheep was found...we should only read what is written.

It would have done you well to slowly read what was posted. I know it's a lot, but I sifted through about 20 pages to compile that. Most of what you ask is either what's already been posted or in his book.
I recommend you get a copy for Kindle.

Snodgrass wrote:
What is revealed about the character of God is the value he places on even the least deserving and the care he extends to such people. God is not passive, waiting for people to approach him after they get their lives in order. He is the seeking God who takes the initiative to bring people back, regardless of how “lost” they are.

 

[MarkT]

Jesus said, What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray?

So I'm asking, how many of you would do this? According to Jesus this is what a good shepherd would do. He would leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray.

A good shepherd would never leave his sheep in the wilderness to perish.

And if he finds it, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. Mt. 18:13

Matthew 18:14
So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

How many of you would go out into the wilderness to find one sheep?

 

[ezra]

mercy everyone has a valid point yet it wants to turn into a who is right and who is correct . coming home yesterday i was listening to Jack Graham forget the church he is pastor.. he was teaching preaching on eternal security . he had many good points . he came to the point of saying something in the manner there is nothing you can do to lose your salvation . this part raised my eye brows .then he said a Christian should not want to sin this i agree with . even when we do have a advocate there should be some conviction ..
so to live a life of sin w/o feeling no condemnation imo makes one w/o a father . imo was never saved .. once again i do not preach/ teach either one.. i am a know so salvation .i know if i fall and i have .
i know how to get back up . i know i can approach the throne of Grace with boldness get mercy help in time of need . the security is there.. the license to sin after salvation to say all is well no matter what is not Godly sorrow bring repentance this happens after we sin . it may take several trips to God wood shed // look at king David a man after God own heart . struggled with his flesh very much

 

[MarkT]

Are you still comparing apples to apples? The parable you've been discussing specifically says a man has a hundred sheep and one of them gets lost (strays from the herd).

I know. A man has a hundred sheep and one of them gets lost.

We were all like that one sheep with no shepherd to guide us until we were found by the Shepherd. Of course we didn't know it at the time. We didn't know until God gave us the knowledge of his Son. Things like that are revealed to us in time.

Matthew 9:36
When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.
Mark 6:34
As he went ashore he saw a great throng, and he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd; and he began to teach them many things.

Same with the people of Israel. They were like lost sheep without a shepherd.

 

[ezra]

sheep needs to be put to pasture the lost can be either way strayed off or lost lost no jesus imo lost means astray not lose of salvation either scripture can be give to prove both points

 

[MarkT]

The parable is explained in two places.

Luke 15 says there's more joy in heaven over the sinner who repents and believes in Jesus than over ninety-nine do gooders who are righteous according to the law. Matthew 18 says it's not the will of the Father that any believer in Jesus should perish.

 

[JohnDB]

By children you must surely mean a young adult...a teenager?

Here it's done by adult men with a dog.

And again you show how we're not to take each word of the bible very literally...Jesus told parables to teach a moral lesson....using ideas and concepts of the day...and jobs of the day.

It's the lesson we should be concerned with.
There is a fold,,,a flock...

One departs from the flock and gets lost.
God desires all to be saved....
He looks for the sheep and the sheep comes back.

In the parable of the Prodigal Son,,instead,,,
it's the SON that comes back to the Father...sans having the Father look for him.

I think the important part of this and the moral lesson to be learned is that we could become lost and then go back to the Father...He will never turn us down.

One thing to note...
99 sheep is a large flock...too large for one small child or one shepherd. There are going to be other shepherds to help contain the sheep and keep them all together. Probably two others.

So a picture of 100 sheep would induce a picture of three shepherds, a bunch of sheep and one stubborn lamb who wants to leave the flock to find whatever it is smelling.

In the Judean wilderness there aren't a lot of grasses except for a few times of the year. It's a place covered in rocks and hardpan...not a lot of dust either.
(Almost like a view from another planet)

But a few places will have grazing and water. There are a few people but not many out in the wilderness areas.

My wife and I were joking about how lonely an IDF soldiers were that were guarding gates spaced miles apart in the fence separating Israel from Palestinian territories.

 

[stovebolts]

Jesus said, What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray?

So I'm asking, how many of you would do this? According to Jesus this is what a good shepherd would do. He would leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray.

A good shepherd would never leave his sheep in the wilderness to perish.

And if he finds it, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. Mt. 18:13

Matthew 18:14
So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

How many of you would go out into the wilderness to find one sheep?

There are four parables on Lostness. I am starting a study in the Classroom Forum on Parables. Perhaps I will start with these four. I would invite all parties to join as we would all learn something from this study.
Mr. Snodgrass arranges the study this way.

1. The Ararangement of Luke 15
2. The Lost Sheep (Matt 18:12-14 / Luke 15:4-7)
3. The Lost Coin (Luke 15:8-10)
4. The Compassionate Father and His Two Lost Sons (Luke 15:11-32)
5. The Parable of the Sower and the Purpose of Parables

(Matt 13: 3-23; Mark 4: 3-20; Luke 8: 5-15)

Snodgrass, Klyne R.. Stories with Intent: A Comprehensive Guide to the Parables of Jesus (p.93 - p. 178). Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.. Kindle Edition.

As you can see, there are over 90 pages Mr. Snodgrass has written in regard to Lostness. Everything everyone has questioned about the Lost sheep can be answered definitively through his exhaustive research to find Jesus's intent for each parable.

If we fail to understand Jesus's intent, then we create our own intent and misapply the story in ways it was never designed.

 

[GodsGrace]

One thing to note...
99 sheep is a large flock...too large for one small child or one shepherd. There are going to be other shepherds to help contain the sheep and keep them all together. Probably two others.

So a picture of 100 sheep would induce a picture of three shepherds, a bunch of sheep and one stubborn lamb who wants to leave the flock to find whatever it is smelling.

In the Judean wilderness there aren't a lot of grasses except for a few times of the year. It's a place covered in rocks and hardpan...not a lot of dust either.
(Almost like a view from another planet)

But a few places will have grazing and water. There are a few people but not many out in the wilderness areas.

My wife and I were joking about how lonely an IDF soldiers were that were guarding gates spaced miles apart in the fence separating Israel from Palestinian territories.

Thanks John.
I always learn so much from you.

 

[JLB]

When the sheep is found, it is no longer lost. He was lost, not dead.

His sheep, born again Christians, sons of God, that wander away and become lost are dead spiritually, but not physically.


It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’
Luke 15:32

• for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’

A sinner is considered separated from Christ and spiritually dead.





JLB

 

[JLB]

It's possible to fall away. But his sheep do not fall away. And they don't become lost after they are found.

Your free to believe what you want.


Jesus teaches us that His sheep, do indeed become lost, and He taught His disciples how to go about turning them back. (Repentance).


The 100 sheep belonged to the shepherd.

• having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? Luke 15:4

• does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?

It’s undeniable that all the sheep in this teaching, belong to the shepherd.




JLB

 

[JLB]

I'd like to say that we really use the word REPENT incorrectly these days.

As you've stated,,,it means a change of mind; a change of direction.... a person is headed one way,,,they turn around and go the other way.

Some use the word repent to mean that they're sorry for their sins; a sin they may have committed. We know what they mean, but it's incorrect.

If we had to repent every time we sin..we'd be
saved
lost
saved
lost
etc.

So what we really mean is that we regret our sin, or we're sorry for our sin.

If we sin we do not become lost (by that one sin).
If we need to REPENT again,,,it means we were headed the right way and then turned around and went the wrong way again (this would be, for instance, a LIFE OF SIN).

Nothing will change...
we'll keep using this word repent the wrong way, but we all know what a person means by it, I guess.

Yes.


As far as salvation is concerned repent means to turn to God.


This refers to turning and committing yourself to obey Jesus as your Lord.


In the case of a brother who has wandered away, it means to return, or turn back to God, by recommitting to obey Jesus as Lord.


Words of Christ in red.


Key phrases:

• in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God,

• they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:16-20



Repent = Turn to God in submission to His rule and authority






JLB

 

[MarkT]

His sheep, born again Christians, sons of God, that wander away and become lost are dead spiritually, but not physically.


It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’
Luke 15:32

• for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’

A sinner is considered separated from Christ and spiritually dead.





JLB

You don't have the correct order. Born again Christians were dead spiritually speaking, but now they are alive. Ie. born again. We were lost, but now we are found.

 

[JLB]

You don't have the correct order. Born again Christians were dead spiritually speaking, but now they are alive. Ie. born again. We were lost, but now we are found.

Is a born again Christian one of His sheep?



JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

No true at all.


Jesus must rely on the Church, whom He dwells in to go after those of His sheep who become lost.


Jesus is in heaven.

• He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Tend My sheep.” John 21:16

This is the point of His teaching.

He is instructing His disciples what to do about those of His sheep who wander away and become lost.


Do those who are lost need salvation?





JLB

This passage is not about chasing after people who have fallen away from Christ.
It is about people who have never been saved.
It is missionary work.

 

[GodsGrace]

This passage is not about chasing after people who have fallen away from Christ.
It is about people who have never been saved.
It is missionary work.

Tend my sheep....
Who are God's sheep?

If it means everybody is a child of God,,,it could mean what you said.

If it means those saved (God's sheep) then it could mean to take care of the saved ones....like for instance in Mathew 18:15........

??

 

[GodsGrace]

Allen Wynne

PS
In the N.T. sheep refers to the people of God.
Jesus said MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE....

Those that are not saved do NOT hear the voice of God.

I do believe tend my sheep just means to take care of JESUS' sheep....which would we saved persons....