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Cygnus

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Acts 16..
…13 On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate along the river, where it was customary to find a place of prayer. After sitting down, we spoke to the women who had gathered there. 14 Among those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15 And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, “If you consider me a believer in the Lord, come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us

If the Lord didn't choose to open Lydias heart...she would not have been a believer.

You don't choose Jesus, but God chooses you to believe in Jesus John 15:16
GGod gives you the gift of grace and mercy. Eph 2:8
God has to drag you to Christ.. John 6:44
God has to grant you the ability to believe John 6:65
Only His sheep hear His voice. John 10:26
Your dead in your sins and trespasses and God needs to quicken you Eph 2:5
 
You don't choose Jesus, but God chooses you to believe in Jesus John 15:16
That verse is spoken by Jesus to His apostles at the "last supper", not to all believers. He chose them to be apostles. You have taken it our of its context to make it say something it was not meant to say.
God gives you the gift of grace and mercy. Eph 2:8
God's gift of grace and mercy is offered to all mankind. If, you're breathing, it's because of God's grace and mercy.
Jhn 3:16-21 (RSV) For God so loved the world (that's everyone and every thing) that he gave his only Son, that whoever (that's anybody) believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. (God's mission was to save the whole world)
He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (Note: John did not say, "He whom God causes to believe...")
And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
People refused to be saved because they loved their evil more than God's goodness.
But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.
God has to drag you to Christ.. John 6:44
God draws everyone according to John 12:32 "and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
Not everyone submits to being drawn. Many rebel against the idea of submitting to anyone, even to God. God doesn't force anyone to believe.
Jhn 6:64(RSV) "But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.
God has to grant you the ability to believe John 6:65
Jhn 3:16-19 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
God loves the world. Since He loves all of mankind, He will not refuse to grant anyone the ability to believe. It would be contrary to His nature for God is love.
It is only those who refuse to respond to God's grace and love who will not believe.
Isa 65:2 I spread out my hands all the day to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good, following their own devices;
But, Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. (Acts 3:21 Rom 10:13)
Only His sheep hear His voice. John 10:26
Jer 26:4-5 (RSV) " ...If you will not listen to me, to walk in my law which I have set before you, and to heed the words of my servants the prophets whom I send to you urgently, though you have not heeded, then I will make this house like Shiloh, and I will make this city a curse for all the nations of the earth."
Whether one hears or not is the choice of the one who with the ears.
Mat 11:15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 4:9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 4:23 If any man has ears to hear, let him hear.
Luk 8:8b He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Luk 14:35b He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Jesus repeatedly and clearly put the responsibility to "hear" on the individual.
Your dead in your sins and trespasses and God needs to quicken you Eph 2:5
That's part of the story..
Eph 2:4-7 But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Paul was describing God's mercy and love in His choice to rescue us from the death which we had all earned by our sin. He rescued us from the predicament into which we had gotten ourselves and from which we were powerless to extract ourselves.
Since we all sin, we all die. None of us can fix death.
To save us from that death, Jesus destroyed the power of death so that all mankind will be raised immortal and incorruptible. (1 Cor 15:51-54)

God offers eternal life to all mankind.
Each of mankind is responsible for accepting or rejecting God's gracious offer.

Eternal life is a free gift from God. ----------- But you have to take it to have it.
Isa 55:1 Ho, every one who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

Iakov the fool
 
Excellent reply Jim as it is we who choose to accept Gods grace that is freely given to all and accept Gods salvation as those who have ears to hear will hear God calling us to Him.
 
Acts 16..
…13 On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate along the river, where it was customary to find a place of prayer. After sitting down, we spoke to the women who had gathered there. 14 Among those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15 And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, “If you consider me a believer in the Lord, come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us

If the Lord didn't choose to open Lydias heart...she would not have been a believer.

You don't choose Jesus, but God chooses you to believe in Jesus John 15:16
GGod gives you the gift of grace and mercy. Eph 2:8
God has to drag you to Christ.. John 6:44
God has to grant you the ability to believe John 6:65
Only His sheep hear His voice. John 10:26
Your dead in your sins and trespasses and God needs to quicken you Eph 2:5

I think that's an argument from silence. It's possible that she could have come to believe later on.
 
As i said...If the Lord didn't choose to open Lydias heart...she would not have been a believer.
 
As i said...If the Lord didn't choose to open Lydias heart...she would not have been a believer.
If????
The Lord DID open Lydia's heart. What would have happened if the Lord did not "open" her heart is pure speculation.
14 Among those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

Lydia was already a worshiper of God. Obviously, her heart was already opened.

An opposite example is that God hardened Pharaoh's heart AFTER Pharaoh himself, had already and repeatedly hardened his heart.
(Exo 7:13, 14, 22; 8:15, 19, 32; 9:7, 12, 35, 35,; 10:1)

It appears that God opens the hearts of those with open hearts and hardens the hearts of those with hardened hearts.
 
If????
The Lord DID open Lydia's heart. What would have happened if the Lord did not "open" her heart is pure speculation.


Lydia was already a worshiper of God. Obviously, her heart was already opened.

An opposite example is that God hardened Pharaoh's heart AFTER Pharaoh himself, had already and repeatedly hardened his heart.
(Exo 7:13, 14, 22; 8:15, 19, 32; 9:7, 12, 35, 35,; 10:1)

It appears that God opens the hearts of those with open hearts and hardens the hearts of those with hardened hearts.

Lots of people worship God....but have not received Christ Jesus. Paul was presenting the gospel...God opened Lydias heart...and she received Jesus.
 
God has to drag you to Christ.. John 6:44

Cygnus,

This is not true, based on the exegesis of this text.

‘No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day’ (John 6:44 NIV). The Father draws; he does not drag people into the kingdom. The drawing is not forceful, to the point of giving no other alternative.

The focus on the etymology [1] of the Greek, helko [I draw], gets our discussion into a bind. John 6:44 (NIV) makes the teaching clear that this drawing is by the power of God with the specific purpose of moving the sinner’s inner being (heart/soul) to move from darkness to light and into God’s eternal life. No human being can do this by himself/herself. God’s divine power does the drawing. If that does not happen, no salvation will take place.

However, the book of John also clarifies that this is not for a select few. What does John 12:32 (ESV) declare? These are the words of Jesus, ‘I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw [2] all people to myself’. So the drawing of John 6:44 (NIV) nd the drawing of John 12:32 (ESV) demonstrate that it applies to all human beings, not a select elect.

We know from Romans 1:16 (ESV) that it is the gospel that is accompanied by God’s power ‘for salvation to everyone who believes’. So, people are the ones who make the decision to believe, to have faith in Jesus. However, the initiative remains with God to draw people -- all people. They can choose to respond or not.

Bossmanham explained:
It is often charged by Calvinists that Arminians believe that man must work with God to procure their salvation. Man must make a move toward God and then God will make a move toward them. It is often described as God meeting man half way. Is this what is taught by Arminians? Did Jacobus Arminius believe this way?

The answer is no. Arminians believe the work of salvation is started and completed by God. The Bible says in order for man to come to God, He must draw them to Himself (John 6:44). Arminians believe the initial work of salvation is done by God. God must do this, because due to the effects of sin, man’s will toward faith in Christ has been lost and destroyed. God must free the person’s will in order for them to make a conscious decision whether to accept His gift of grace or not.

God the Holy Spirit acts upon the heart of a man when that man is exposed to the grace of God. This is done through the hearing of the Gospel (Romans 10:17). God has declared as the great commission for His children to spread His gospel (Matthew 28:19) for this reason. Upon the hearing of the word, the Spirit of God calls the sinner to repent of his sins, draws the sinner to accept Christ, enables the sinner to accept Christ, and convicts the sinner of his or her sins and their need for Christ. After being enabled by the Spirit, the response of the sinner is passive. The sinner must stop resisting, repent of their sins, and place their faith in Christ. This gift, like any gift, is not irresistible. The sinner must accept the unmerited gift of God. Once this is done, following the plan of the Father, the Spirit joins the sinner to Jesus and thus begins the Savior’s relationship with the sinner (Monergism, Synergism, and Arminianism).

See also Craig L. Adams, 'Calvinism and John 6:44'.

Oz

Notes
[1] Oxford dictionaries give the meaning of ‘etymology’ as, ‘The study of the origin of words and the way in which their meanings have changed throughout history: the decline of etymology as a linguistic discipline’ (Oxford dictionaries, s v Etymology 2014).

[2] This is the same word for ‘draw’ as in John 6:44 (NIV).
 
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Lots of people worship God...
not quite - lots of people THINK they worship God.
The scripture specifically says she worshiped God. The only God that would be is the God of the Bible. She was ready to receive the Gospel because she had already decided to worship the one true God. So God opened her heart to receive what she was still lacking. But she was already a believer in God.
Paul was also a zealous and devout believer in God before Jesus revealed Himself to Paul. And when Jesus revealed Himself to Paul, he quit persecuting the church and started preaching the Gospel. My point is that both he and Lydia were already worshipers of God but without complete knowledge. The were ripe and ready for God to take them to the next level.

I think they both fall under the rubric of Mat 7:7-8: "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."
Lydia was knocking on heaven's door and God opened her heart to let heaven in. :)
 
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As i said...If the Lord didn't choose to open Lydias heart...she would not have been a believer.
When the Gospel is preached, God the Holy Spirit works on the sinner's heart, while the Father and the Son draw men to Christ. God's perfect will is that every heart be opened, therefore He did open Lydia's heart. But we should also bear in mind that other hearts are not opened because men love darkness rather than light.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (John 3:19-21).
 
Cygnus,

This is not true, based on the exegesis of this text.

‘No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day’ (John 6:44 NIV). The Father draws; he does not drag people into the kingdom. The drawing is not forceful, to the point of giving no other alternative.

The focus on the etymology [1] of the Greek, helko [I draw], gets our discussion into a bind. John 6:44 (NIV) makes the teaching clear that this drawing is by the power of God with the specific purpose of moving the sinner’s inner being (heart/soul) to move from darkness to light and into God’s eternal life. No human being can do this by himself/herself. God’s divine power does the drawing. If that does not happen, no salvation will take place.

However, the book of John also clarifies that this is not for a select few. What does John 12:32 (ESV) declare? These are the words of Jesus, ‘I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw [2] all people to myself’. So the drawing of John 6:44 (NIV) nd the drawing of John 12:32 (ESV) demonstrate that it applies to all human beings, not a select elect.

We know from Romans 1:16 (ESV) that it is the gospel that is accompanied by God’s power ‘for salvation to everyone who believes’. So, people are the ones who make the decision to believe, to have faith in Jesus. However, the initiative remains with God to draw people -- all people. They can choose to respond or not.

Bossmanham explained:


See also Craig L. Adams, 'Calvinism and John 6:44'.

Oz

Notes
[1] Oxford dictionaries give the meaning of ‘etymology’ as, ‘The study of the origin of words and the way in which their meanings have changed throughout history: the decline of etymology as a linguistic discipline’ (Oxford dictionaries, s v Etymology 2014).

[2] This is the same word for ‘draw’ as in John 6:44 (NIV).

If you don't mind I think I'll need to disagree with you.

Acts 21:30 reads this way....of Paul they dragged him out of the temple,

James 2:6 reads this way....you and personally drag you into court?

I don't think God woo's people into heaven in a here kitty, kitty fashion.
 
When the Gospel is preached, God the Holy Spirit works on the sinner's heart, while the Father and the Son draw men to Christ. God's perfect will is that every heart be opened, therefore He did open Lydia's heart. But we should also bear in mind that other hearts are not opened because men love darkness rather than light.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (John 3:19-21).

I think a study of what Gods will is, is needed.
I don't thik will in this instance is a decree...as in thy will be done. I'm not even sure if it can be considered as a wish.

If it is a decree then the decree of God will is only for a select group of people. We know the group is select because not all people are saved.
The verse then gets deeper....what is the group? Who are the any?
 
I don't think God woo's people into heaven in a here kitty, kitty fashion.
Neither does He grab anyone by the leg and drag him in.
Of the two, the "here, Kitty, Kitty" is probably closer to the meaning of scripture.
Rom 10:21 All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.
Mat 22:2-3 The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a marriage feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast; but they would not come.


iakov the fool
 
Neither does He grab anyone by the leg and drag him in.
Of the two, the "here, Kitty, Kitty" is probably closer to the meaning of scripture.
Rom 10:21 All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.
Mat 22:2-3 The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a marriage feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast; but they would not come.


iakov the fool

I believe God reaches down, grabs your dead spirit...and quickens it.

Eph 2:4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,5 made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

Unless God quickens you....you don't have the ability to even begin to believe. No faith, no grace...no belief. We learn that a few chapters later.
Romans 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,
 
"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." Revelation 3:20 NKJV

"...Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, because you disdained all my counsel, and would have none of my rebuke, I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes,..." Proverbs 1:24-26 NKJV


 
"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." Revelation 3:20 NKJV

"...Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, because you disdained all my counsel, and would have none of my rebuke, I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes,..." Proverbs 1:24-26 NKJV

That's all well and good WIP....but what about context?
The verse that directly preceeds verse 20 says the following...."'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent."

What does that mean? I think it has to do with a christian that have lost their way. Christ is talking to the church of Laodicea in this instance which did just that.
Can you be dogmatic about this being a salvation only verse? I know I can't.
 
As i said...If the Lord didn't choose to open Lydias heart...she would not have been a believer.

That's an argument from silence, you can't know that. You'd have to prove that from the Scriptures. However, just stating it as fact doesn't work.
 
"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." Revelation 3:20 NKJV

"...Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, because you disdained all my counsel, and would have none of my rebuke, I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes,..." Proverbs 1:24-26 NKJV

That's all well and good WIP....but what about context?
The verse that directly preceeds verse 20 says the following...."'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent."

What does that mean? I think it has to do with a christian that have lost their way. Christ is talking to the church of Laodicea in this instance which did just that.
Can you be dogmatic about this being a salvation only verse? I know I can't.
 
That's an argument from silence, you can't know that. You'd have to prove that from the Scriptures. However, just stating it as fact doesn't work.

I'm stating the biblical fact...God opened her heart. That's what the verse says. The plain and simple reading says..God opened her heart...and she understood.
Do you think a heart that is dead in sin and trespasses can open without the help of God?
 
I'm stating the biblical fact...God opened her heart. That's what the verse says. The plain and simple reading says..God opened her heart...and she understood.
Do you think a heart that is dead in sin and trespasses can open without the help of God?

Yes, the passage says God opened her heart. It doesn't say, if God didn't she never would have believed.
 
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