[__ Science __ ] Scientific argument for God's existence

[Michael74]

Because something explains a phenomenon does not mean that it is true.

No, but it does show that there is no conflict between the Bible and fossils.

I read Hugh Ross when I was a Christian. I did like his books and videos.

Me too. He is an interesting person. I also liked his television show when it was on.

What about the scientists that do not believe in god?

Some do, some don't. Science just has not figured everything out yet. Science is not advanced enough to explain all of the mysteries of the universe. Most of the substance of the universe is called "dark matter" and "dark energy", because science has no idea what they are. String theory posits multiple dimensions, but has absolutely no idea what these other dimensions are. What caused the big bang, science just doesn't know. Science is still a work in progress.

I agree. Most Christians do not come to faith by science or by apologist arguments. It is usually an emotional reason or a feeling that God exists.

Oh, that's not at all what I said. Real miracles happen today, which is plenty of proof for those involved. God does talk to people today, which is proof enough for those hearing from Him. People's attitude changes when they are saved, which convinces those around them that something genuine has happened. There are real reasons that people believe. Good reasons.

 

[Clizby]

Would you say the same for you about the topic of God? Do you reject that He exists until, you have evidence to say otherwise (like the toothfairy).

I don't reject that he exists. I don't know if he exists. We should not believe something to be true until we have good reason based on sufficient evidence to believe it is true and the quality of teh evidence required is based on the claim. If you claim you have a dog named Roger, I would believe you based on the facts that many people have dogs, why would you lie about that and it does not affect me in any way if that is true or not. If you claim that you can fly to the moon and back I would want sufficient evidence before I believed that claim.

Or are you on the fence about God until you have evidence for His existance (like being unsure about aliens)? That might be a small distinction to make, but I think it's the same level of dinstinction that you've said is being misrepresented for you by saying you deny that God exists.

People have said in those words that I deny gods existence. I do not. I just don't know because of the lack of evidence. Saying I don't believe God exists is not also saying that god does not exist.

If I there is a 5 gallon bucket of skittles and you say that there is an even number of skittles in the bucket without evidence then I would not believe you. But that does not mean that I believe there is an odd number of skittles in the jar.

I'm a bit worried that in the end the misrepresentation here is over semantics more then there's an actual difference. If it's misrepresented it might be because it's so close to being the same thing.

Sorry for the tangent. I get feeling slighted by being misrepresented, but I also think the difference from what you mean and what was said for your stance, is small enough to understand why it happened and let it go.

All I am saying is that I don't deny gods existence. He could exist but I just don't know. There is not enough evidence to believe he exists.

 

[Clizby]

No, but it does show that there is no conflict between the Bible and fossils.

Ok.

Some do, some don't. Science just has not figured everything out yet. Science is not advanced enough to explain all of the mysteries of the universe. Most of the substance of the universe is called "dark matter" and "dark energy", because science has no idea what they are. String theory posits multiple dimensions, but has absolutely no idea what these other dimensions are. What caused the big bang, science just doesn't know. Science is still a work in progress.

I 100% agree but it has demonstrated that it is the best way to determine what is true or not. there is not one scientist that believes in God that can demonstrate that through science. They believe for other reasons.

Oh, that's not at all what I said. Real miracles happen today, which is plenty of proof for those involved. God does talk to people today, which is proof enough for those hearing from Him. People's attitude changes when they are saved, which convinces those around them that something genuine has happened. There are real reasons that people believe. Good reasons.

How can we determine the difference between a miracle advanced technology that we don't understand? If we take a tape recorder back 500 years we could convince many that it was magical. Also, I have not seen any evidence for miracles, not that they haven't happened but where is the evidence? I hear about them all the time but none have been substantiated as far as I know.

I know people believe for reason and evidence. I just disagree that it is evidence to believe a God claim.

 

[stovebolts]

Clizby
You said,
This is not my point. Being willing to have your beliefs challenged and changed to fit the evidence is not prideful. Asserting a truth without sufficient evidence and not be willing to have you mind changed is prideful in my opinion. If the theory of gravity was demonstrated to be untrue I would accept that as truth although I doubt that will happen.

God demonstrated his love for us through His Son Jesus.

Do you believe there was a historical Jesus?

How that is demonstrated in my life, is it changed the course of my life and gave me hope. Where I was once a liar, thief and one quick to brawl, I am now patient, honest and dependable.

You dont have to believe God exists, but if you try and live your life by the example Jesus left us as well as his teachings, then you will discover it's the best way to live.

In Scripture, it mentions tasting the word of God. This goes beyond just knowing the word of God.

You see, I discovered that God is in the business of transforming lives. When I was a teen, many thought I was going to live my life in prison. I have two brothers in prison and drug abuse is normal with my siblings. On the other hand, I have escaped the odds. I have a beautiful wife and children and live a very good life.
This is how God is demonstrated in my life. I have tasted his righteousness and give God the glory. Others may claim their success was of their own works. For me, I was a simple a co- worker with Christ. This is my truth.

You said,
We don't know these were eyewitness accounts and people dying for a belief just means that they believed what they died for not that their belief was true.

You don't believe in a seven day creation and your faith is in science. Aside from medical assistance, science does not support being risen from the dead. As you know, Lazareth was dead three days in the tomb. Jesus calmed the storms, walked on water, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind and on and on.

Jewish writings from the sages affirm this. However, they claim he was a sorcerer.

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.”

Sanhedrin 43a

I am assuming you understand the Sanhedrin controlled the Jewish courts, similar ( but not really ) to our Supreme court and derived from Moses aka Moshe

There are more sources such as Pliney the Younger who was a governor and wrote to Emperor Trajan. Then we have Tacitus who mentions the crucifiction of Jesus mentioning Pontias Pilate affirming the Biblical account. In conclusion, both Jewish and Gentile sources affirm Jesus was a real historical person as well as his miracles.

My point is this, this historical writing affirm the miracles of Jesus. However, they attribute them to sorcery. Science proves the miracles of Jesus as fraudulent.

Can you show me and prove through Science where a man dead three days in the grave can be raised back to life?

For Christians, we believe Jesus performed all the miracles recorded in the Bible because we trust the prophesy that fortold Jesus and His miracles and we believe the writings from those who walked first hand with Jesus.

If you are asking or expecting anyone to scientifically prove any of the miracles mentioned in the Bible then sadly, science will disprove said miracles.

As I said earlier, you can put your faith in your own intellect relying on Science to create your world view, or you can believe the first hand testimony of those who walked with Jesus.

 

[Edward]

No.

That's what I thought that you would say.

Why wouldn't requires some type of evidence for all of your beliefs?

Because God does not work like that. It's His BBQ, not mine. He does wind up giving people evidence and proof, but it is an internal knowing and not something that can be done on demand or in a lab with witnesses and all that. God does not do side shows. But He has helped me in supernatural ways so many times in different ways that e has proven His existence and trustworthiness to me. One time He even spoke audibly to me. How many testimonies would you like to hear?

On what basis do you believe this?

We have one source of absolute truth available to us. It's called the Bible and really is the word of God. John 14 explains a lot of it but the entire book of John is recommended reading. Scripture explains that the logical flesh mind can not accept the spiritual things for it is flesh, but that spiritual truths must be spiritually discerned. Therefore we have to approach it in spirit rather than in the flesh. (I can get you the reference quotes from scripture on those if you are not familiar with them). And that we are supposed to look to the unseen world for truth. In other words...in spirit. That takes faith. Trusting in what is unseen by us. First we are to trust Him and then, after a time, He will come, and He has.

God gave us free will on earth and He will never violate it. So He won't do anything for us unless we ask Him first. Faith is more than just a word which gets spoken. An action done in faith by us...then puts the ball in God's court. Think about Jesus's Disciple, Peter. He wanted to walk on the water too. But he had to get out of the boat first. There's the action part. But why should you believe any of this? You do not even realize yet that you have a spirit.

I am a spirit. I have a soul, and I live in a temporary flesh body.

Ok, how do I do that?

Proving that we all really are a spirit man in a body?

This will be fun for you to do at the least, and you will know the truth within yourself. So no harm done even if it fails for you somehow? I wouldn't think it could for any thinking feeling person who has life in them, lol! The movie, The Matrix was right. It is the world which has been pulled over our eyes.

So. Treat this as an exercise, or a game, but go into it with an open mind and heart and pay attention closely to what happens, ok?!

I assume that you are married? Live with a wife? A Wife is best and easiest to do this with because of the love and intimacy between you. It works with other people also, even men but is most pronounced with a beloved woman. It just is.

What you're going to do with her is a two part exercise done at different times of your choosing. You will hug your wife or child/friend, whoever and one time try to make it when you are short of time and should have already left to be on your way. So give her a kiss and hug goodbye and then go. Remember how it made you feel.

The 2nd time when you hug her, take your time and focus your heart upon her and the love for her that you have in your heart, just envision giving it to her while you are focused upon her and hugging her.

So...pay attention to what happens. Many people describe it as having a connection. Myself, and probably many of us here, have been in a hug with someone somewhere before, (prolly at a family gathering) where we really did not want to be there? I have. You can feel it when you hug someone, if their heart is in it or not. This is a connection of spirits. If they don't want to be there, that is transmitted through spirit as a signal.

But when you hug your wife/loved one, it is positive and we want to be there and the connection is much more. Am I right? You can prolly already know from previous experience? The least that could happen is you hug your wife. The best that could happen, is that you knock her off her feet through your act of dumping focused love upon her in this way!

Lots of couples have said that they could even talk to their spouse with only a glance. I did that too.

 

[Michael74]

Also, I have not seen any evidence for miracles, not that they haven't happened but where is the evidence?

I have heard many testimonies from people who said they were healed by Jesus, but I can understand how you might not consider this to be rigorous scientific research. One organization that has done extensive research to document miracles is the Catholic Church, as they consider this documentation necessary to declare a person a saint. An atheist, Jacalyn Duffy was asked to document one saint candidate by a local group. She was surprised to find evidence of a miracle, so she then investigated hundreds of documented miracles at their archives in Rome.

In my study of 1,400 canonization miracles over four centuries, more than 95 per cent were healings from physical illness. The proportion of “medical miracles” increased to 99 per cent in the twentieth century.

Most investigations required testimony of physicians, some of whom were nonbelievers: treating doctors, expert consultants, and occasionally medical family members.

Her conclusion:

She came away convinced that "miracles" do indeed happen.

I'm thinking you can find quite a bit of local documentation at some Protestant churches if you ask. I'm not sure they have an international central repository of the records like the CC does. I remember a man who attended a local prayer meeting told me he was healed, and had the before/after x-rays to prove it. A local pastor stated that doctors documented healings at his church. This type of medical documentation might be what you are seeking.

 

[Edward]

I have heard many testimonies from people who said they were healed by Jesus, but I can understand how you might not consider this to be rigorous scientific research. One organization that has done extensive research to document miracles is the Catholic Church, as they consider this documentation necessary to declare a person a saint. An atheist, Jacalyn Duffy was asked to document one saint candidate by a local group. She was surprised to find evidence of a miracle, so she then investigated hundreds of documented miracles at their archives in Rome.



Her conclusion:



I'm thinking you can find quite a bit of local documentation at some Protestant churches if you ask. I'm not sure they have an international central repository of the records like the CC does. I remember a man who attended a local prayer meeting told me he was healed, and had the before/after x-rays to prove it. A local pastor stated that doctors documented healings at his church. This type of medical documentation might be what you are seeking.

Exactly. And if miracles are real then the entire unseen world has to be true also. And even our unseen inner spirit man. Geez, miracles seem to be on the increase both big and small. Testimony's of miracles are all over youtube and I've heard several here locally of more. Plus I have a bunch myself.

Thinking about my spirit man got me to thinking about all of the other spirit's both good and evil that must be in the world. There must be billions of them, maybe trillions?! (supposedly we all have at least two Angels assigned to each of us, a guardian Angel and a scribe Angel, and yet we know that there are many other types of Angels also/ Better take the red pill pretty quick!

 

[Michael74]

...there are many other types of Angels...

I saw an angel once. I was talking to a man who told me that angels were protecting us. He must have prayed, because a short while later an angel came flying down a long corridor that I was in. Okay, point made. Angels are protecting us. Very graceful and powerful looking. No wings. He just moved through the air somehow.

And Elisha prayed, and said, “Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. 2 Kings 6:17 NKJV

 

[jasonc]

I saw an angel once. I was talking to a man who told me that angels were protecting us. He must have prayed, because a short while later an angel came flying down a long corridor that I was in. Okay, point made. Angels are protecting us. Very graceful and powerful looking. No wings. He just moved through the air somehow.

And Elisha prayed, and said, “Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. 2 Kings 6:17 NKJV

Can't see their face ,extremely bright ,carry swords ,seen a few

 

[Edward]

Can't see their face ,extremely bright ,carry swords ,seen a few

The one that came to my garage sale appeared as a man driving a pickup truck! About 6 ft tall, thick and healthy looking, had a beard, appearance was mid 30's, well spoken and carried the biggest stack of 100 dollar bills that I ever seen in real life. He gave me 24 of them and I don't think it put a dent in his stack.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are smuggling in a god by claiming that the universe was created without demonstrating that god exists.

Well C, here's the problem we have.
I know how the universe came about because of faith.
I believe a power outside of material and time created everything.

What does YOUR faith tell you?
How do YOU think the universe came about?

 

[Clizby]

Clizby
Do you believe there was a historical Jesus?

Sure, but not like the one described in the Bible.

How that is demonstrated in my life, is it changed the course of my life and gave me hope. Where I was once a liar, thief and one quick to brawl, I am now patient, honest and dependable.

There are Muslims and Mormons that can say the same thing. How can I know the difference between these claims?

You dont have to believe God exists, but if you try and live your life by the example Jesus left us as well as his teachings, then you will discover it's the best way to live.

I did this for many years. I think there is a better morality and wisdom by reasoning. Not that all things taught in the bible are bad.

You see, I discovered that God is in the business of transforming lives. When I was a teen, many thought I was going to live my life in prison. I have two brothers in prison and drug abuse is normal with my siblings. On the other hand, I have escaped the odds. I have a beautiful wife and children and live a very good life.
This is how God is demonstrated in my life. I have tasted his righteousness and give God the glory. Others may claim their success was of their own works. For me, I was a simple a co- worker with Christ. This is my truth.

Malcolm X attributes his turn around to Allah. Why should I believe your testimony over his?

You don't believe in a seven day creation and your faith is in science.

Once again I don't have faith in science. I trust it because it has been demonstrated to be reliable. Faith has not.

Aside from medical assistance, science does not support being risen from the dead.

Because it has never been demonstrated.

As you know, Lazareth was dead three days in the tomb. Jesus calmed the storms, walked on water, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind and on and on.

Can this be substantiated?

My point is this, this historical writing affirm the miracles of Jesus. However, they attribute them to sorcery. Science proves the miracles of Jesus as fraudulent.

No it does not. It just says that there is no reason to believe they are true? They are extraordinary claim and requires evidence to be believed.

Can you show me and prove through Science where a man dead three days in the grave can be raised back to life?

If it can happen sure. But we have never observed this.

For Christians, we believe Jesus performed all the miracles recorded in the Bible because we trust the prophesy that fortold Jesus and His miracles and we believe the writings from those who walked first hand with Jesus.

If you are asking or expecting anyone to scientifically prove any of the miracles mentioned in the Bible then sadly, science will disprove said miracles.

Science cannot disprove miracles. It only says it cannot investigate until we can test them.

As I said earlier, you can put your faith in your own intellect relying on Science to create your world view, or you can believe the first hand testimony of those who walked with Jesus.

Demonstrate that that testimony is accurate then maybe I will believe them.

 

[stovebolts]

Clizby
I wish you well.

 

[Clizby]

One time He even spoke audibly to me. How many testimonies would you like to hear?

Not unless you can give evidence they happened.

We have one source of absolute truth available to us. It's called the Bible and really is the word of God. John 14 explains a lot of it but the entire book of John is recommended reading. Scripture explains that the logical flesh mind can not accept the spiritual things for it is flesh, but that spiritual truths must be spiritually discerned. Therefore we have to approach it in spirit rather than in the flesh. (I can get you the reference quotes from scripture on those if you are not familiar with them). And that we are supposed to look to the unseen world for truth. In other words...in spirit. That takes faith. Trusting in what is unseen by us. First we are to trust Him and then, after a time, He will come, and He has.

It takes faith that does not require any evidence. That is not a pathway to truth.

God gave us free will on earth and He will never violate it. So He won't do anything for us unless we ask Him first. Faith is more than just a word which gets spoken. An action done in faith by us...then puts the ball in God's court. Think about Jesus's Disciple, Peter. He wanted to walk on the water too. But he had to get out of the boat first. There's the action part. But why should you believe any of this? You do not even realize yet that you have a spirit.

How does giving us sufficient evidence violate our free will to choose to follow him?

This will be fun for you to do at the least, and you will know the truth within yourself. So no harm done even if it fails for you somehow? I wouldn't think it could for any thinking feeling person who has life in them, lol! The movie, The Matrix was right. It is the world which has been pulled over our eyes.

So. Treat this as an exercise, or a game, but go into it with an open mind and heart and pay attention closely to what happens, ok?!

I assume that you are married? Live with a wife? A Wife is best and easiest to do this with because of the love and intimacy between you. It works with other people also, even men but is most pronounced with a beloved woman. It just is.

What you're going to do with her is a two part exercise done at different times of your choosing. You will hug your wife or child/friend, whoever and one time try to make it when you are short of time and should have already left to be on your way. So give her a kiss and hug goodbye and then go. Remember how it made you feel.

The 2nd time when you hug her, take your time and focus your heart upon her and the love for her that you have in your heart, just envision giving it to her while you are focused upon her and hugging her.

So...pay attention to what happens. Many people describe it as having a connection. Myself, and probably many of us here, have been in a hug with someone somewhere before, (prolly at a family gathering) where we really did not want to be there? I have. You can feel it when you hug someone, if their heart is in it or not. This is a connection of spirits. If they don't want to be there, that is transmitted through spirit as a signal.

But when you hug your wife/loved one, it is positive and we want to be there and the connection is much more. Am I right? You can prolly already know from previous experience? The least that could happen is you hug your wife. The best that could happen, is that you knock her off her feet through your act of dumping focused love upon her in this way!

Lots of couples have said that they could even talk to their spouse with only a glance. I did that too.

How does my feelings for my wife prove a spirit exists?

 

[Clizby]

I have heard many testimonies from people who said they were healed by Jesus, but I can understand how you might not consider this to be rigorous scientific research. One organization that has done extensive research to document miracles is the Catholic Church, as they consider this documentation necessary to declare a person a saint. An atheist, Jacalyn Duffy was asked to document one saint candidate by a local group. She was surprised to find evidence of a miracle, so she then investigated hundreds of documented miracles at their archives in Rome.



Her conclusion:



I'm thinking you can find quite a bit of local documentation at some Protestant churches if you ask. I'm not sure they have an international central repository of the records like the CC does. I remember a man who attended a local prayer meeting told me he was healed, and had the before/after x-rays to prove it. A local pastor stated that doctors documented healings at his church. This type of medical documentation might be what you are seeking.

What she found was healings that we don't know how they happened at best. How do you link that to a god? How do you differentiate between a miracle and a process we don't know about yet? If I saw a bone heal itself instantly then how do you know that was due to a god?

 

[Michael74]

What she found was healings...

Healings that are compatible with healings in the Bible. If healing takes place today, there is reason to think that healing described in the Bible took place too. Another step in the investigatory process. Intriguing enough to merit further investigation, it seems to me.

 

[Michael74]

For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? Hebrews 2:2-4 NKJV

Consider that God inspired a whole book to lead people to Jesus. God is confirming that His Word is true by working miracles.

Those who reject Jesus get Old Testament style justice. Those who accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior get mercy. He loves people, and wants to give people mercy, which is why He sent Jesus to redeem us.

 

[Clizby]

Well C, here's the problem we have.
I know how the universe came about because of faith.
I believe a power outside of material and time created everything.

What does YOUR faith tell you?
How do YOU think the universe came about?

I don't know and I don't have faith. Faith is not a pathway to truth. Can you substantiate that God created everything?

 

[Clizby]

Healings that are compatible with healings in the Bible. If healing takes place today, there is reason to think that healing described in the Bible took place too. Another step in the investigatory process. Intriguing enough to merit further investigation, it seems to me.

There are healing's in other religious books as well, how do you determine the healing's are from a god, then how do you tell they are from a particular god? How is it falsifiable? How do you rule out other causes?

 

[Clizby]

For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? Hebrews 2:2-4 NKJV

Consider that God inspired a whole book to lead people to Jesus. God is confirming that His Word is true by working miracles.

Those who reject Jesus get Old Testament style justice. Those who accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior get mercy. He loves people, and wants to give people mercy, which is why He sent Jesus to redeem us.

No, you get worse than OT justice. You get tortured forever in hell.

Do you think that I deserve to be punished in hell forever after I die for not believing in Jesus death and resurrection?