Bible Study Sex and the Bible

[AHIMSA]

Okay, I have discussed this issue before. The Bible is often used to condemn homosexuality. My question, to those that use the Bible in this manner, is this:

The Bible, in several instances, seems to be perfectly fine with many acts that would offend modern standards, acts that seem to exist as a traditional threat to the 'sanctity of marriage'.

For example, Lots daughters get him drunk, have sex with him and then bear his children. He has no idea that they have slept with him, and this equates to rape. The Bible discusses these events as though they are perfectly normal

Or Gideon, who died while still having a concubine (a sex slave) and had many wives (Judges 8:31), yet I am sure that most Christians would assume that he went to heaven. My question is this: "How can Gideon have gone into heaven after having lived in such sin...while homosexuals will go to hell?"

Or David, who had children by many, many women....yet this is not condemned. The Bible discusses these events as though they are perfectly normal.

2Samuel.3:2-7, 5:13, 15:16, 16:21

All this polygamy exists, yet God only condmens Solomon for taking foreign women. Otherwise, the authors of the Bible were completely fine with polygamy and sex slavery.

How do these righteous Biblical figures find heaven and God ,whilst homosexuals do not?

I'm not trying to disrespect the Bible or anything, these are authentic questions posed with scriptural support.

 

[Ray Martinez]

The Bible, in several instances, seems to be perfectly fine with many acts that would offend modern standards, acts that seem to exist as a traditional threat to the 'sanctity of marriage'.

You appear to be confusing the reporting of sin with approval of sin.

For example, Lots daughters get him drunk, have sex with him and then bear his children. He has no idea that they have slept with him, and this equates to rape. The Bible discusses these events as though they are perfectly normal

The Bible reports what happened.

Its your groundless interpretation that the messenger is somehow communicating a message that it is normal or okay.

Or Gideon, who died while still having a concubine (a sex slave) and had many wives (Judges 8:31), yet I am sure that most Christians would assume that he went to heaven. My question is this: "How can Gideon have gone into heaven after having lived in such sin...while homosexuals will go to hell?"

False dichotomy.

God permitted procreation with many women.

Homosexual sex was always forbidden.

You are attempting to conflate permissible activity with forbidden activity.

Or David, who had children by many, many women....yet this is not condemned. The Bible discusses these events as though they are perfectly normal.

It reports what happened.

Things were much different then.

It appears you are judging ancient heterosexual customs with a modern politically correct measuring stick.

All this polygamy exists, yet God only condmens Solomon for taking foreign women. Otherwise, the authors of the Bible were completely fine with polygamy and sex slavery.

"sex slavery" is your deliberate obscenely negative spin attempting to make the Bible appear blatantly contradictory.

Solomon was condemned for allowing the strange women to turn his heart away from God.

David had a lot of concubines also yet he never let them get in the way of his relationship with God.

How do these righteous Biblical figures find heaven and God ,whilst homosexuals do not?

Question assumes homosexuality to not be against God laws.

The Bible says homosexuality is a sin.

Gays do not go to hell for their sexual sins. They will perish as will straight persons for rejecting God's will in their life.

Homosexuality is one sin among many.

It is no worse than any of the rest.

Only self-righteous Fundamentalists give an inordinate amount of attention to homosexuality because gays force their freedom of lifestyle upon the rest of the world.

As far as the Bible is concerned - homosexuality is just another sin.

Ray Martinez

 

[AHIMSA]

Its your groundless interpretation that the messenger is somehow communicating a message that it is normal or okay.

How is this groundless? The Bible reports these events and makes no attempts to single them out as sin or against God's will, when the Bible is exactly that, an account of his will and workings in the world. Take note that the Bible tends to condemn what is seen as sinful and uplift what is seen as righteous.

For example, God destroys Soddom after removing the people there who are not corrupt and evil, yet immediately following that event Lot's daughters get him drunk and force themselves upon him. Why were they not included in the punishment? Why does Lot's wife turn to stone for simply looking back while her daughters suffer no punishment? This suggests that either God or the author did not see a problem with this behavior.

God permitted procreation with many women.

Homosexual sex was always forbidden.

You are attempting to conflate permissible activity with forbidden activity.

So now polygamy is okay? God did permit men to have many wives? How is this not a threat to the sanctity of marriage? How does this fall in line with God's vision for society? Are to believe that God stoops down the the cultural lows of a society...permitting polygamy, even thought its immoral, simply because it that society's custom?

It appears you are judging ancient heterosexual customs with a modern politically correct measuring stick.

Yet you can judge modern homosexual relationships according to an ancient, rigid and archaic measuring stick?

"sex slavery" is your deliberate obscenely negative spin attempting to make the Bible appear blatantly contradictory.

CONCUBINE: Law. A woman who cohabits with a man without being legally married to him.
In certain societies, such as imperial China, a woman contracted to a man as a secondary wife, often having few legal rights and low social status.
......sounds like a form of slavery to me.

David had a lot of concubines also yet he never let them get in the way of his relationship with God.

So can not a homosexual exist in a 'sinful' relationship without letting that get in the way of his or her relationship with God? If God still permitted David to live in sexual immorality and still admitted him into heaven....the logical conclusion would be that homosexuality would not neccessarily stand in the way of salvation either.

 

[bibleberean]

Sexual immorality always gets in the way of a sound relationship with God.

If giving into natural desires with the opposite sex can be harmful just imagine what a degenerate, slimy unnatural act between two or more Sodomites can do.

:smt078

We have a rule here in the TOS with the sole purpose of keeping perverts from coming into the forum and slithering around promoting degenerate sex practices. I hope that people will all have a chance to read it...

(Rule 15: No promoting any sinful behavior Homosexual behavior, Lying, stealing, murder....etc.)

This is a Christian forum, and we go by what the bible says. The Bible clearly states sexual relations between people of the same gender are an abomination unto God. Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1:26-27 and Jude 1:7-8

If you have a problem with that. Then take it up with God!! While you are on this forum you will show respect for God and our savior Jesus Christ. And respect others and the moderators of this board.

Just thought I would remind people this is a Christian forum and not a soap box for Sodomites and other practioners of evil...


Thanks,

 

[Relic]

exist in a 'sinful' relationship without letting that get in the way of his or her relationship with God?

:o

Sin IS what gets in the way of relationship with God.

double-minded double crossing people have a tough time staying in RIGHTEOUS relationship with God.

You pointed out the sins of those people. But you didn't use common sense that shows that the act of SIN always leads to ill consequences. Follow the blood line of those two sisters who mated with their father. Look at Lot's wife. She was stuck on looking back to the place where the sin was. looking back is the key. turning to stone.... Hearts of stone, always turning back to where there is sin, are people cold against the will of God.

King David paid the price for his relationship with Bathsheeba. Look at the following troubles he had as a result, and look at his child that he had with Bathsheeba and the children he had with others. The results of illicit relationships are evident.

The purpose of being IN Christ Jesus is to Become LIKE MINDED.

If you are Flip Flopping all the time you are like a dog returning to it's vomit. ALL "sinners" have that problem.

THE ONLY WAY to SALVATION from your sins. IS TO REPENT. and GO AND SIN NO MORE.

The Sinner who does not REPENT is the one who returns to his sin like the dog who returns to his vomit. The only way to get away from returning to that HABIT of SIN IS BY THE RENEWING OF THE MIND: BEING CHRIST LIKE, instead of following the acts of sin. Follow Jesus the sin-less One.

You say you are well read, but you post messages that indicate you deny the truth of the bible. Jesus came to save us from our sins. He says to GO AND SIN NO MORE. But you ignore this fact, that He says to GO AND SIN NO MORE. And you continually try to find excuses to justify the sinners that are written of in the old testament.

We have free choice. but we don't have escape from the consequences of sin. It catches up to us all IF we don't REPENT and TURN AWAY FROM SIN.

TURN TOWARD GOD CHRIST JESUS came to SAVE us from the worldly sins.

Common sense shows that the actions of the people who turned away from God resulted in the appropriate consequence. If you want to live in sin, you will eventually get the result of sin. If not immediate results the long term results show up. We all have to face judgement day. And those who don't TURN TOWARD GOD will carry their sins with them in the end of it. Jesus came to SAVE US FROM OUR SINS. He Says GO AND SIN NO MORE.

How much more complicated do you want to make it, by searching for excuses to continue on with the sins of the world?

Use your common sense and see that sins get carried from one generation to the next IF there is no REPENTANCE from the SINS.

What is so difficult in seeing this?

JESUS SAID, GO AND SIN NO MORE.

Read about the renewing of the mind. the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT.
It's about being HOLY. Not about staying in sin. but about turning away from sin. Either accept it or not, the choice is yours. You will never get away from sin unless you turn away from it. SIMPLE AS THAT! You can't change the truth of the consequences of sin nor can you ever change the definition of sin as it is defined in the bible no matter how hard you try. Why do you think people are so anti-semitic and hate Jews and Christians? Because the bible teaches to SIN NO MORE. The bible teaches the consequences OF living in the Sin filled life. But people are just too stubborn and "STONE COLD" STUCK on living in the appeal of sin. They don't look at the result of it. That is the objective of Satan, he wants to confuse the mind away from the truth of what SIN does to us. Jesus REVEALS the TRUTH OF IT!

Sheech. Get the message of Christ already. He freed us from the sins of the past by sacrificing himself on the cross,showing us that we must pick up our own cross and GO AND SIN NO MORE. Now TURN TOWARD JESUS AND SIN NO MORE.

The KEY IS REPENTANCE. Without repentance there is no salvation. How can there be salvation if you don't repent from the sin?
You can't save the victim by assisting the perpetrator in continually stabbing it. Jesus says, GO and SIN NO MORE. Stop assisting the devil in stabbing the life out of you.

Sin = death/destruction.

Holiness = life without sin.

Get the message already.
You can't change the truth of what sin is and does. God does not lie! Sin leads to destruction, Period. Fester in sin and you will surely find the destruction. Live in Holiness and you will be blessed. Each instance. No man can deny the truth. They can only either live in Truth or live in the lie. The consequences are inevitable. The only way to be go on in freedom of sin is to stop and repent of it and turn toward Jesus the Christ.
LOVE WITHOUT SIN. SIN NO MORE. Stirve for Christ. Not for that sin you love so much! You cannot serve two masters! Being double minded will not bring you closer to God when your heart is focused on continuing in your sin. David repented! You forgot to mention that! His Heart was searching for righteousness with God. Not in searching for reasons to continue in his sins!


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[AHIMSA]

Ray Martinez said:

David had a lot of concubines also yet he never let them get in the way of his relationship with God.

Bibleberean said:

Sexual immorality always gets in the way of a sound relationship with God.

You two appear to be in contradiction to one another. If sexual immorality always gets in the way of a relationship with God, then I don't see how Gideon, with his concubines, could have had a relationship with God. Nor can I see how David, after impregnating many women (not including Bathsheebs), could still have a 'sound' relationship with God.

Yet Ray Martinez holds that sexuality immorality, that is having concubines, does not neccessarily get in the way of a relationship with God. Which one is it?

Ray Martinez said:

God permitted procreation with many women.

So then heterosexual permiscuity is permitted by God then? How is this in line with the sanctity of marriage?

 

[Rick W]

Keep trying AHIMSA. You may convince yourself yet. Who knows.

 

[yesha]

You two appear to be in contradiction to one another. If sexual immorality always gets in the way of a relationship with God, then I don't see how Gideon, with his concubines, could have had a relationship with God. Nor can I see how David, after impregnating many women (not including Bathsheebs), could still have a 'sound' relationship with God.

Yet Ray Martinez holds that sexuality immorality, that is having concubines, does not neccessarily get in the way of a relationship with God. Which one is it?

There is no OT law prohibiting polygyny(except possibly for the king), thus it is not sexual immorality, thus it doesn't necessarily (though it appears to usually) get in the way of a relationship with God. A monogamous relationship is considered best.

So then heterosexual permiscuity is permitted by God then? How is this in line with the sanctity of marriage?

??? promiscuity is not permitted. polygyny is not heterosexual promiscuity.
_________________

 

[AHIMSA]

promiscuity is not permitted. polygyny is not heterosexual promiscuity.

So if polygamists were to appeal to the government that polygamous marriage should be permitted...then they would have the word of God backing them?

How is polygamy not an equal threat, if not more so, in your minds to the sanctity of marriage? How is it in line with God's perfect plan as laid out by the creation of Adam and Eve in the very beginning of the Bible? The plan which Christians so often use to oppose same sex relationships?

God created Adam and Eve, not Adam, Eve, Laura, Gina, Rosie

Unfortunately your argument fails here. If one man and one woman united in marriage is the perfect and moral relationship which God desires, then polygamy must be immoral too. Unless of course, you believe that God is willing to stoop down to the cultural lows of a society and violate his own precious moral code by permitting polygmay in certain societies.

Lastly, how is polygamy not another form of promuscuity? Instead of sleeping with several women over a course of a few nights I could just keep them all for the rest of my life and sleep with them all, every night...as I pleased. How this is in line with the sense of 'morality' that you use to condemn homosexuality is certainly beyond me.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Ray Martinez said:
Quote:
David had a lot of concubines also yet he never let them get in the way of his relationship with God.


Bibleberean said: Quote:
Sexual immorality always gets in the way of a sound relationship with God.



You two appear to be in contradiction to one another.

You get used to contradictions around here.....

It spices up the arguments in my humble opinion.

 

[yesha]

So if polygamists were to appeal to the government that polygamous marriage should be permitted...then they would have the word of God backing them?

As has been said, I don't think there is any prohibitation concerning it.
To be in the same category, the bible would have to repeatidly call the act 'detestable' in God's eyes.
Though that wouldn't stop people from protesting.

How is polygamy not an equal threat, if not more so, in your minds to the sanctity of marriage? How is it in line with God's perfect plan as laid out by the creation of Adam and Eve in the very beginning of the Bible? The plan which Christians so often use to oppose same sex relationships?

I believe Jesus tells us that God intended a marriage to be between a single man and a single woman only.
God also intended that people would never divorce, yet the OT has laws concerning divorce.
Likewise, though polygyny is not 'best', it's not forbidden either.
The first polygamous marriage was Lamech (Gen 4:19).

If one man and one woman united in marriage is the perfect and moral relationship which God desires, then polygamy must be immoral too. Unless of course, you believe that God is willing to stoop down to the cultural lows of a society and violate his own precious moral code by permitting polygmay in certain societies.

You don't seem to understand that the problem with homosexuality is that two men are having sex.
This act of a man having sex with a man, is explicitly, and repeatidly, and with strong words condemned in the bible.
IF you were to take away the sex, and have simply two people living together, then it could be said that a marriage between a man and a woman is better then two men living together. Of couse two men cannot be 'married' biblically speaking. But if you insist on arguing that what it not best is immoral, then it's just another blow against the brutally slaughtered homosexuality.

Lastly, how is polygamy not another form of promuscuity? Instead of sleeping with several women over a course of a few nights I could just keep them all for the rest of my life and sleep with them all, every night...as I pleased. How this is in line with the sense of 'morality' that you use to condemn homosexuality is certainly beyond me.

Firstly, you should notice that two men aren't sleeping together in this situation.
Secondly, it appears that your definition of promuscity is vastly different then mine.
Promuscity, in my definition, is devoid of any kind of commitment. Thus if someone has commited themselves to somebody for the rest of their life, they are not in a promiscuous relationship by definition. Someone who is promicuous sleeps with someone they just met for one day, and the next with somebody else. There is no commitement, just casual sex.

 

[AHIMSA]

So there we have it. Polygamy does not exist as a threat to the sanctity of marriage...and if the government made it legal...why yesha wouldn't have a problem with it.

Interesting how two people of the same sex in a committed, loving relationship are 'evil', whilst a man can have seven wives and God does not mind.

So if you're lucky enough to be a heterosexual man, then don't worry about this committed to one woman junk...find a few that you like and you can all live together...perhaps sleep with a different one everynight. Such is the reality of polygamy.

But if you're a woman...well too bad for you. The Bible doesn't seem to permit having more than one husband. Nope, your stuck with one man FOREVER.

* I was just wondering, does Yesha speak for all Christians when he says that polygamy isn't a problem? Or his he alone with the Mormons?

 

[yesha]

So there we have it. Polygamy does not exist as a threat to the sanctity of marriage...and if the government made it legal...why yesha wouldn't have a problem with it.

If a governement makes a 'homosexual' marriage legal, then there is no reason I can see to not make polygamous marriages legal, and where it will stop I can't guess.

Interesting how two people of the same sex in a committed, loving relationship are 'evil', whilst a man can have seven wives and God does not mind.

It has to do with the forbidden sex. A brother and sister can can a committed, loving relationship, but they shouldn't have sex, nor should they get married.

So if you're lucky enough to be a heterosexual man, then don't worry about this committed to one woman junk...find a few that you like and you can all live together...perhaps sleep with a different one everynight. Such is the reality of polygamy.

Just because one could do it, doesn't mean it was best to do it.

But if you're a woman...well too bad for you. The Bible doesn't seem to permit having more than one husband. Nope, your stuck with one man FOREVER.

It sounds like you'd welcome polygamous homosexual marriages aswell.