should we have billionaires?

[Christ_empowered]

Should We Have Billionaires?

The Democratic presidential campaign has taken a strange twist in recent days, with candidates being asked whether we should have billionaires. While

www.counterpunch.org

 

[WIP]

Who decides what is appropriate? Many, if not most, billionaires or anyone with wealth don't have it by doing nothing. They make investments and when they do well, they reinvest it some more. By doing so they help others grow.

The company I worked for is a good example. One day I was talking with our CEO and he was telling me about the early years and how they struggled, wondering how they were going to by groceries each week. As time went on, they decided to incorporate and take on investors. If it wasn't for those wealthy investors, the company would never have made it past the first two years. When I retired this past May, it is the largest employer in our area with almost 700 employees.

Did the CEO and his partners get wealthy in the process? Absolutely but it took a lot of sacrifice and risk. They are also notorious for being generous in the community as they do invest in others and are therefore part owners of a number of local businesses.

 

[jasonc]

Yet the state ,I,live near a democrat ran town of poverty with a budget a few billion dollars .its not all taxes ,utilities fund a lot .

They have wealth on the beach ,near the river and poor west of the river .I have posted photos of that city and its homes .city hall and the arcade .

No one rails against that city .per law a city must make a profit on enterprise funds,airports,and utility,and marina ,garbage are such ,a golf course and also cemetery may charge but aren't enterprise .

 

[Bull of the Woods]

Jesus said we will always have the poor. I imagine the inverse is true, we will always have the rich. Appropriate behaviors are in order for both the rich and poor. We all need a savior. The question for a rich person is the same as for a poor one. What is your standing before God?
I know of one billionaire that I am concerned for. I can't and shouldn't be the judge. But I am very worried for him.

 

[Christ_empowered]

ok. im not an instructor, so I'm not going to say "class dismissed! go home and read the article!," but c'mon, people...

skim it, at least...please .

a lot of billionaires just played hi finance games and came out with ungodly sums of ca$h. how'd that do a darn thing for anyone? it didn't. nobody benefited. but...

as long as we have a better taxation system in place, social programs, a safety net, and heavy taxes on the super rich...

sure, billionaires. ok, fine. i'd just prefer billionaires who produce things that people want and get very, very rich -that- way.

the whole point of the article....to me, anyway...seems to be that we might get a billionaire here and there, under new tax codes and such, but not like we have now...

and we'll also have a more vibrant, real democracy, and less inequality, less poverty.

right now, the stats indicate its gone crazy insane...time to even things out, that's all. its not socialism or communism...

its progressive politics! sorta like The New Deal 2.0....

 

[JohnDB]

ok. im not an instructor, so I'm not going to say "class dismissed! go home and read the article!," but c'mon, people...

skim it, at least...please .

a lot of billionaires just played hi finance games and came out with ungodly sums of ca$h. how'd that do a darn thing for anyone? it didn't. nobody benefited. but...

as long as we have a better taxation system in place, social programs, a safety net, and heavy taxes on the super rich...

sure, billionaires. ok, fine. i'd just prefer billionaires who produce things that people want and get very, very rich -that- way.

the whole point of the article....to me, anyway...seems to be that we might get a billionaire here and there, under new tax codes and such, but not like we have now...

and we'll also have a more vibrant, real democracy, and less inequality, less poverty.

right now, the stats indicate its gone crazy insane...time to even things out, that's all. its not socialism or communism...

its progressive politics! sorta like The New Deal 2.0....

The problem with progressive tax rates is that it actually hurts the middle and lower class with stifling wages and tax burdens.
The rich (through their middle class accountants and lawyers) can effectively hide and move their wealth outside of the country... outside of USA's taxable jurisdiction.
This then becomes a game of 90 million dollars spent trying to hide 100 million. If you don't spend the whole 90 you come out on top. And the lower middle classes bear the highest share of the tax burden while the jobs continue to move overseas.

You will always have the poor and the rich. Can't get rid of them.
And yes, convenient governance has created many people's wealth. Bloomberg got indirectly wealthy from day traders...I know a few day traders as well that have done well.

They aren't evil, they spend their money on their families just like everyone else. They buy common and luxury items. One Christian movie came from the profits a "day trader" made. I hear he finally got a somewhat regular job...he hasn't had one in a very long time.

But if you try to limit day trading by taxes... The whole stock exchange will crash.

The rich don't bother me...they got problems just like everyone else. Those large amounts of money only brings more problems into their lives. Sure it solved one...but brought a host of other problems with it.

I truly don't care what someone else has. I'm worried more about my son's lack of love life than how someone got a billion dollars.
I got real friends who love me for me...not my money or talents. Billionaires can't say the same.

 

[Michael74]

Billionaires are fine as long as they earn it honestly.

 

[Christ_empowered]

one of the wealthiest people in my state is a lady who did big time, hi-finance corporate take overs, etc. in the 80s, back when reagan's de-regulation made everything heady and crazy...

so, basically, she got an Apple IIe or whatever, played computer games with money, and walked away with nearly (but not quite..) a billion. what has she contributed to society? that's the problem I have...

if anything, super duper rich people like that are a drag on society. they're playing games with companies that produce goods, provide services, etc...

walking away with mega-fund$, but...what's the point? and I sense that it damages the economy, really. not that i can pretend to -get it- as an economist does, obviously.

i have some super duper rich relatives...they played corporate game$, oh yeah, but...they either owned or headed up businesses that : made good, provided services, --paid workers-- , and competed (kinda sorta fairly, I hope?) in the market place. and there you go.

oh, and...side note: those super duper rich relatives (not all that distant) kinda live in a super duper rich bubble. it wasn't until my parents hit the upper middle/lower rung of upper class that they started calling up, asking to see my parents sometime, etc. blah. :-( and im done...

 

[JohnDB]

one of the wealthiest people in my state is a lady who did big time, hi-finance corporate take overs, etc. in the 80s, back when reagan's de-regulation made everything heady and crazy...

so, basically, she got an Apple IIe or whatever, played computer games with money, and walked away with nearly (but not quite..) a billion. what has she contributed to society? that's the problem I have...

if anything, super duper rich people like that are a drag on society. they're playing games with companies that produce goods, provide services, etc...

walking away with mega-fund$, but...what's the point? and I sense that it damages the economy, really. not that i can pretend to -get it- as an economist does, obviously.

i have some super duper rich relatives...they played corporate game$, oh yeah, but...they either owned or headed up businesses that : made good, provided services, --paid workers-- , and competed (kinda sorta fairly, I hope?) in the market place. and there you go.

oh, and...side note: those super duper rich relatives (not all that distant) kinda live in a super duper rich bubble. it wasn't until my parents hit the upper middle/lower rung of upper class that they started calling up, asking to see my parents sometime, etc. blah. :-( and im done...

But how does her getting that billion hurt you?
I can still purchase apple products. (If I wished to)

I can buy apple stocks if I want. (I might have some in a mutual fund... dunno)

My Christmas savings account is still full unfortunately (i haven't bought presents yet)

Just trying to understand why billionaires are bad.

 

[Christ_empowered]

billionaires are a-OK, except...

it seems that if we have a system that perks up businesses and artificially creates billionaires (look at the loop holes and straight up tax evasion amazon has done, for example), then we have a situation where....

resource$ are flowing -upwards- , towards those who can afford to invest (I think its only 40%ish percent of the US population), those who have guidance and fund$ to play with (now you're probably looking at 20%, which...get this...is where the affluent classes begin), and further up to the rich...then the very rich...and then...

the mega-mega-mega rich, who control our media outlets, politicians, indirectly affect higher education (in particular...), and basically...

run the joint! oh, and the US has been chastised by the UN for pockets of deep, almost 3rd world level poverty, and crazy inequality, -declining- upward mobility (lots of -downward-) mobility, and our crazy insane inequality is now resulting in....

reductions in average lifespan. lotsa poor people in jail, in prison, on the streets. its..bad, man. bad.

it isn't the billionaire$ hurting people...its a neo-liberal form of capitalism that has shredded the safety net, welfare programs, access to means of upward mobility, and...

ugh! vote democrat. have a nice day.

 

[Michael74]

1) Example of someone who earned wealth honestly is John Deere. He invented a steel plow that helped farmers feed people. Way to go John.

2) OTOH there are bankers who become wealthy by confiscating stuff from the majority (debasing the currency), especially the elderly. Not cool.

 

[Christ_empowered]

yes, thank you Michael74

i...rambled. did i mention insomnia that my sedative didn't touch? yes...

thanks again.

 

[JohnDB]

billionaires are a-OK, except...

it seems that if we have a system that perks up businesses and artificially creates billionaires (look at the loop holes and straight up tax evasion amazon has done, for example), then we have a situation where....

resource$ are flowing -upwards- , towards those who can afford to invest (I think its only 40%ish percent of the US population), those who have guidance and fund$ to play with (now you're probably looking at 20%, which...get this...is where the affluent classes begin), and further up to the rich...then the very rich...and then...

the mega-mega-mega rich, who control our media outlets, politicians, indirectly affect higher education (in particular...), and basically...

run the joint! oh, and the US has been chastised by the UN for pockets of deep, almost 3rd world level poverty, and crazy inequality, -declining- upward mobility (lots of -downward-) mobility, and our crazy insane inequality is now resulting in....

reductions in average lifespan. lotsa poor people in jail, in prison, on the streets. its..bad, man. bad.

it isn't the billionaire$ hurting people...its a neo-liberal form of capitalism that has shredded the safety net, welfare programs, access to means of upward mobility, and...

ugh! vote democrat. have a nice day.

I have no idea what neo-liberal capitalism is or what it means.

All I do know is that I have plenty of jobs and work in my area. Rent is affordable but high.
I have savings. Food, which hasn't kept pace with inflation, is cheaper today than ever before.
Energy also has not kept pace with inflation...so I can buy gas guzzlers and keep on driving and heating and cooling my apartment.

Clothing also hasn't kept pace with inflation... decent quality clothing is affordable enough. I can buy on "off the rack" suit for roughly the same price I did 15 years ago.

And where I can vote...I don't. I am totally disinterested in politics. I've seen supposed Conservatives do extremely liberal agenda items and supposed Liberals do extremely conservative agenda items.

So...
Voting is absolutely worthless. I don't know anyone running for office. Probably won't either.
But I know God...He sets up leaders or deposes them. My little vote....or snowflake in an avalanche isn't worth spending any time on. God has this.

 

[jasonc]

billionaires are a-OK, except...

it seems that if we have a system that perks up businesses and artificially creates billionaires (look at the loop holes and straight up tax evasion amazon has done, for example), then we have a situation where....

resource$ are flowing -upwards- , towards those who can afford to invest (I think its only 40%ish percent of the US population), those who have guidance and fund$ to play with (now you're probably looking at 20%, which...get this...is where the affluent classes begin), and further up to the rich...then the very rich...and then...

the mega-mega-mega rich, who control our media outlets, politicians, indirectly affect higher education (in particular...), and basically...

run the joint! oh, and the US has been chastised by the UN for pockets of deep, almost 3rd world level poverty, and crazy inequality, -declining- upward mobility (lots of -downward-) mobility, and our crazy insane inequality is now resulting in....

reductions in average lifespan. lotsa poor people in jail, in prison, on the streets. its..bad, man. bad.

it isn't the billionaire$ hurting people...its a neo-liberal form of capitalism that has shredded the safety net, welfare programs, access to means of upward mobility, and...

ugh! vote democrat. have a nice day.

I'm,on,a trust fund its Not in any way invested in,any govt bonds,the blood of a Kline and my surmane built it by owning business and failing,and starting over,they died bequeath it to us.its taxed before and taxed again.its not cash but stock,divindebds .it helps my,parents ,aunt and my sister who are on,disability.aunt and my sister are wards if the state .my,dad on disability.it also helps me whose wife is disabled .

Your idea of loopholes and so forth would cause us to loose .the relatives all were able to own ,build and create ,they were also democrats .lets consider that .also its in power companies,oil,gm,ford and other stocks .many pensions also work that way.

The govt cant give what it doesn't tax you first .the more I,make the more I pay .so it encourages me to use deductions and in doing so less goes to as.Medicare and to the state .I have in law who can direct me to invest better then ss will ever give me.if I,ever get there,lol

 

[jasonc]

You have seen homes of a few billionaires in,photos .I,have issues with some of the rich but its stupid to create this idea of fair ,the rich left leaning corps are just as bad.
New york Times ,hypocrites ,Gannett news .most employees are contractors .also both pay no taxes and call for your idea.caveat emptor

 

[jasonc]

Millennials Are Fleeing Cities For Refuge From Democrats’ Disasters

New Census Bureau data shows millennials are increasingly trading cities' urban life for the suburbs and even switching states entirely.

thefederalist.com

Muh taxes even in my state doesn't mean more quality

 

[ezrider]

billionaires are a-OK, except...

it seems that if we have a system that perks up businesses and artificially creates billionaires (look at the loop holes and straight up tax evasion amazon has done, for example), then we have a situation where....

James 2:6
But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

James 5:1-4
Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.

The problem with progressive tax rates is that it actually hurts the middle and lower class with stifling wages and tax burdens.
The rich (through their middle class accountants and lawyers) can effectively hide and move their wealth outside of the country... outside of USA's taxable jurisdiction.

So then you're okay with the fraud?

 

[jasonc]

James 2:6
But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

James 5:1-4
Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.





So then you're okay with the fraud?

I dont think he said thst .look locally the counties seldom,build parks ,most ate bequeathed to the counties or city,later on they charge for use.

But not fraud especially when they sign a deal to never charge.

Locally my state charges me for a beach parking which they didn't build .the donor did ,they also charge for a museum of gold they they dudnt salvage .but not fraud ,all,meant to be free

.

Humiston park ,jacoby park,riverside ,vmis,Mcwilliam park ,all donations .that's tax dollars used to already maintain what they do build on top of charging parking .
But not fraud .I don't assume fraud ,if God blesses you with a Mercedes ,i,guess you,stole it rather then work for it.local billionaires here.donate to st.Francis manor who helps the poor ,and also gyac who helps the poor kids learn and also sports,the bus grid,the homeless coalition,the arc,which houses the mentally challenged as in,my state no taxes do what the arc does. Local charity ,the source who feeds the homeless.

Yes those fraudulent rich .are their cheaters,yes both poor and the rich


I have locked and removed water meters because people steal.both on,the island and the poor .we have people who will steal if we alow it.to include churches .

 

[JohnDB]

So then you're okay with the fraud?

That's kinda an outside the box accusation....on many levels and people.

There's no fraud when a company that you own is located outside the USA...
And if a need arose you could move the cash to America...but until that day you just hoard it elsewhere, outside the USA.
It's not fraud...it's simple economics. It's just not as simplistic as paying taxes through payroll deduction. We live in a global economy. American marketplace is full of imported goods from around the world. Same as everywhere else.
You are a retailer, wholesaler, or consumer. All dependant upon where the bulk of your money goes and works for you. These days even a simple meal has elements coming from around the world. A hot dog on a bun with ketchup and mustard involves a dozen countries products.
America is a very rich country by far comparison to the rest of the world. Average income here is @70k. Most of the world exists on @ 9k. Commodities cost the same the world around. Some things are a little higher in certain areas because of shipping and scarcity while other things are less...so it all comes out to a wash.

No one has defrauded me. I haven't defrauded anyone else.

But we can't go into another country and demand taxes from it's citizens. You may want to. But I tend to think of that behavior as totalitarian.

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

Why not have billionaires. They give lots of people jobs. Billionaires like big houses and nice boats and someone has to build them. The amount of work that tradesman and general labourers get from billionaires keeps them employed for a long time. They love assets and keep building.