So, you believe Christ died for your sins, really???

[AVBunyan]

Most “professing†Christians will tell you they believe that Christ died for their sins. Many of these do not believe such a thing for a moment – I’ll show you.

Most of “Christianity†believes they can lose their salvation or fall away. In other words they believe there is something that they can do or not d o to fall away. These people do not believe Christ died for their sins. Many believe there is something that they could do to lose it such as, live in sin, deny the faith, walk away, stay perpetually drunk, don’t repent or confess etc. or whatever. So, y doing or not doing the say you can lose it.

OK – Question – Are those things mentioned above sins? Of course they are. Did Christ die for those sins? By saying those things done “unrepentedly†or whatever will take away your salvation is saying Christ did not die for those sins – thus what you really do not believe that Christ died for your sins for if you really believed Christ died for all your sins then his death should cover those “falling away†sins also.

But since many of you here believe you can fall away then you do not believe Christ died for your sins and therefore you are still lost and in your sins because only a truly saved man can believe that Christ died for his sins for only God can reveal this to him.

2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Guess what folks – there are a lot of lost “christians†running around today.

Again - if you believe you can fall away or lose i t then you do not believe Christ died for your sins.

Either you believe Christ’s death at Calvary was sufficient for all your sins or not.

God bless 8-)

 

[ChristineES]

I belong to the OSAS variety of Christians, that once you are saved you cannot lose it. I don't think that every time a Christian sins, that God is going to say, "that is too bad, you are not saved anymore". That argument makes absolutely no sense (and I know some will argue this, so I will say that I know that you can't continue to sin without repentance, because if someone says they can do anything they want whenever they want aren't really repentant, are they?) I have verses to back up my beliefs, and I have posted them before, so I won't now.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Again - if you believe you can fall away or lose i t then you do not believe Christ died for your sins.

It simply means that the devil has been around and wants you to doubt your faith. "Hath God really said______?"

It is a wonderful thing to find that blessed assurance. When someone is strong in the Lord, they reach out to weaker brothers and sisters, seeking to edify and build up their faith, rather than tear down and destroy it. It is good when one feels that assurance of salvation. Personally my walk with the Lord has been to many different extremes. When someone feels like they blew it so bad that they must have lost their salvation, that is the time to reach out to them and build them back up. That should be done with love. Not ridicule.

Speak the truth in love. The truth of eternal security, when presented to someone in need as if they are a fool for doubting ~ well, it pushes people away from the church, if not the Lord.


1Cr 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

 

[AVBunyan]

I don’t believe you lose your salvation every time you sin. You lose your salvation when you return to your life of sin or when God gives up on you ever coming back to repentance.

The Absurdity of Losing Salvation
If You Believe You Can Lose Your Salvation…
It Is Possible You May Have Missed Calvary

There is much talk today about losing salvation. The issue is not that can one lose his salvation but the truth of the matter is the real issue is they don’t know what really happened at Calvary. These people don’t understand at all the doctrine of salvation.

The heart of the matter is how is the sinner brought back into the proper standing so that he can have fellowship with God. To put it more simply, how is a man saved today. Man’s dilemma is how can he become righteous before God. In order for the sinner to spend eternity with God he must be holy before God (Heb. 12:14; Hab. 1:13). The sinner has to be reconciled and justified before God in order to spend eternity with God.

Part I. Let’s first look at the condition of the unsaved man. He is lost (II Cor. 4:3), having no hope (Eph. 2:12), separated (Isa. 59:2), unregenerate (Titus 3:5), darkened Eph. 4:18, unprofitable (Rom. 3:12), and under the wrath of God (John 3:36), and in the flesh Rom. 8:8. He is stuck in the mud big time. A dead man cannot pull himself up out of the miry muck for he is dead!

Part II. Without going into all the doctrine of salvation let’s just look at what God did to the sinner. There were several things that God did to bring the sinner into the family of God. By a supernatural work of God the sinner was reconciled to God (Rom. 5:10), made righteous (Rom. 3:22), justified (Rom. 3:24), and redeemed (Gal. 3:13). Then as a result some more things happened: the saint was sealed (Eph. 2:6), seated (Eph. 2:6), saved Eph. 2:8, adopted (Eph. 1:5), quickened (Eph. 2:5), circumcised (Col. 2: 11), raised up (Eph. 2:6), forgiven (Col. 1:14), blessed (Eph. 1:3), accepted (Eph. 1:6), sanctified (Col. 1:30), put into the body of Christ and made to be bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh (Eph. 5:30) and glorified (Rom. 8:30). This is quite a work, I might say.

Now the above fourteen things (and probably more) happened instantaneously when God saved the sinner. So, the people who say they can lose their salvation are saying that they or God can or will undo all of Part II and go back to Part I. Now let’s see how one can lose their salvation. When we talk of one losing their salvation we are talking about the person in Part II. We are talking about the one who lived after Calvary and before the Tribulation period who had at least 14 different miraculous things done to him regarding his salvation. Instead of listing all the verses you have used in the past I will just list where they are found. When we talk about one losing his salvation we are not directing it to:

1. Jews or Gentiles under the Old Testament Law before Calvary (Gen. - Mal.).

2. Jews and Gentile during the gospels, which basically fall into the first category of being before Calvary (Gospels).

3. Unbelieving Jews Paul was directing Hebrews 3 and 5 to (Hebrews).

4. The 12 tribes scattered abroad in James, which doctrinally deals with the tribulation period (Hebrews thru Revelation).

5. Unbelieving Jew or Gentile during the Tribulation period – primarily the book of Revelation.

Most of the verses you use to try and prove a saint can lose his salvation in this age of grace are found in the above books to in Paul’s epistles (except Hebrews of Paul wrote Hebrews).

The person we want you to show to us that can lose their salvation is that blood-bought redeemed sinner after Calvary where Christ died for their sins.

Let’s look at this – we have a sinner saved by grace today and falls into the Part II category (redeemed, saved, regenerated, sealed, etc.). At some point in his life he loses his salvation based upon some mysterious way that you have conjured up (whatever that may be). I am assuming at that point he becomes unreconciled, made unrighteous, unjustified, unredeemed. Then as a result of his “unpardonable sin†or whatever criteria you have dreamed up for one to lose his salvation he becomes unsealed, unseated, unsaved, unadopted, unquickened, uncircumcised, unraised, unforgiven, unblessed, unaccepted, unsanctified, unglorified again, and finally, kicked out of Christ’s physical body! In other words this saint loses his salvation by doing something or a bunch of things??? And then all that God did for him (Part II) gets undone! The poor ex-saint is back to Part I again!

Let’s carry this further – now the poor, lost, ex-saint gets saved again!!! Now God reapplies all of Part II and all is ok – but then he blows it again and all is undone again and he is back to Part I!!! And then he repents and he’s back to Part II! Does anyone see how ridiculous this is getting? If you can give me one example of this happening in the scriptures I might listen. I know you will say that once he loses it he can never get it back again – yes, real neat system you have there.

The problem (or blessing) is this – the sinner was reconciled by the DEATH OF CHRIST. The sinner was JUSTIFIED BY THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST and made RIGHTEOUS and SEALED UNTILL the DAY OF REDEMPTION – DONE FOREVER and nothing you can do can undo that!

Now, you can show me where a man before Calvary does not have this blessing and that a man in the tribulation does not have this blessing but you can’t show me in Paul’s epistles during this age of grace after Calvary that a man can fall out of what God put him into today!

If you still think you can lose your salvation then you are doing something to lose your salvation and you are not trusting Christ to keep you. You say, “I believed on Christ and he will do his part but I have to do my part or keep from doing something that will cause me to fall away.†Then if that is the case then you are still trusting yourself to endure to the end so in reality you are not trusting Christ at all you are counting on you to hold out till the end, which is, works salvation, which is a sure ticket to hell.

Instead of trying to prove you can lose it why not spend some time seeing what really took place at Calvary and then you would not be spending time trying to show people you can lose it.

 

[AVBunyan]

It’s not even close to my “neat systemâ€Â. That’s what wavy would tell you is known as a ‘straw man.’ Your big problem is you see a person as saved or lost in a moment, when that is not even biblical at all.

Regardless of how you describe your lose it scenario if one believes he can fall away they are still in their sins - lost, blinded, unregenerate., and without hope in this world

These responses of your show no spiritual discernment - a lost man can come up with your posts.

A lost man can do a lot of things, except understand spiritual things - I Cor. 2:14; II Cor. 4:3..

 

[AVBunyan]

Jesus taught love, pure and simple, and until you see that, you have not taken one step out of your cage of sin.1 Peter 5:8

Yes, and Paul taught I Cor. 15:1-5 - and you do not believe this - it is obvious.

BTW - to keep the peace of this forum I just put you on "Ignore".

Goodbye -

 

[Fnerb]

AV-

I'm still really torn on the OSAS thought. I was wondering what you or possibly solo (whom both adamantly preach it) have to say about these verses:

Luke 8:13 -
13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Galatians 5:4 -
4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

(Note: I read that passage as being someone whom is trying to earn their way to heaven which is not possible. I just post it here as it does seem to show biblically that it is possible to fall from grace)

1 Timothy 1:19 -
19holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.

(I would equate "shipwrecked" ones faith as to losing it.)

1 Corinthians 10:12 -
12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

On the flip side, I take great comfort in passages such as:
John 10:27-28
1 John 2:2
Isaiah 40: 28-31

Thanks!

(Note: I'm still a pretty large newbie when it comes to theology, so please be gentle)

 

[AVBunyan]

AV-I'm still really torn on the OSAS thought. I was wondering what you or possibly solo (whom both adamantly preach it) have to say about these verses:

1. Luke 8:13 - Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

2. Galatians 5:4 - You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

3. 1 Timothy 1:19 - holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. (I would equate "shipwrecked" ones faith as to losing it.)

4. 1 Corinthians 10:12 - So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

5. On the flip side, I take great comfort in passages such as: John 10:27-28, 1 John 2:2, Isaiah 40: 28-31

I believe your request to be sincere so here we go...

1. First off – You are prior to Calvary where Christ had not yet even died for sins so right off you are on shaky ground. Second – the issue here is not salvation – somebody may have taught you the context is salvation but it is into. The issue here is hearing the word and what one does with it. One can believe a truth and then fall away from that truth.

2. These folks were trying to justify themselves by the law and not the faith of Jesus Christ Gal. 2:16. These folks were not even saved – they rejected faith alone and were trying to justify themselves by the law and Paul was calling their and on it. So, because they were seeking the law to justify they had fallen away from the message of grace, not their salvation.

3. When a saved saint follows after false doctrine his faith will be shipwrecked not his salvation – Your faith will fail and falter but you are justified by the faith of Christian and live by his faith also – Gal. 2:20. A saved man will practice a practical faith in his Christian walk and this can become wrecked. There is no verse supporting that the word shipwrecked equates to losing nit. Somebody just made that up and squeezed it into the verse because they were looking for ways to teach lose of salvation.

4. Israel fell into certain sins – the nation did not lose their salvation. Paul warns us to take heed lest we fall into the same type of sins. See vs. 6. Again the word fall has been associated with fall from salvation – no support for this – private interpretation.

5. Great verses – let’s go further on one - John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Now go to Eph. 5:30 - there you are not just in his hand but a part of Christ’s body – something changed after Calvary for the saint who gets saved. In the Gospels the believer is in the hand – today the believe is in the body of Christ – there is the security!

Fnerb – try this exercise – very few have, with the right attitude and prayerfully, done what I will ask you to do here. Take the first three chapters of Ephesians from a King James Bible and underline all past tense phrases. Here you will find out just some of what God did for you at the point of salvation. This is why folks believe they can lose their salvation – they do not know the 39 or so miraculous things God did for the sinner at salvation. Now after looking at the first three chapters of Ephesians you then tell me how you in your own power are going to undo what God did?

I trust the above helps.

God bless

 

[tim-from-pa]

AVBunyan:

I agree with you here. When one is born into the family of God, that is an act of procreation on God's part and as such cannot be "unborn".

As for me, I'm a strange one. I believe I am born again, but I am the only so-called "British -Israelite" that believes once saved always saved and in a pre-Trib rapture. :

 

[AVBunyan]

1. I agree with you here. When one is born into the family of God, that is an act of procreation on God's part and as such cannot be "unborn".

2. As for me, I'm a strange one. I believe I am born again, but I am the only so-called "British -Israelite" that believes once saved always saved and in a pre-Trib rapture. :

1. Glad you believe this -

2. Strange indeed - don't know to much about this British Israely thing but if you have justification and the end times right then we can at least agree here.

God bless

 

[Solo]

AVBunyan:

I agree with you here. When one is born into the family of God, that is an act of procreation on God's part and as such cannot be "unborn".

As for me, I'm a strange one. I believe I am born again, but I am the only so-called "British -Israelite" that believes once saved always saved and in a pre-Trib rapture. :

Well, you got the most important one right!!! :

 

[tim-from-pa]

Well, you got the most important one right!!! :

They're both important. The first focuses between God and me, the second on God's plan for the nations. I find that too many people get excessively wrapped up in the first to see past to the second. :-D

 

[Heidi]

Your flimsy argument is pathetic. Don’t you remember we did something like this before on this forum and there was no decent answer then and I doubt if you can find one now. I gave the example that if I give you enough laundry soap sufficient to wash all your clothes for the rest of your life, say, a million boxes, does that mean you ever have to buy laundry soap again? No, you don’t have to buy soap ever again. It is free and sufficient. Do you believe you have enough to wash your clothes for the rest of your life with a million boxes? Sure you do. Does that mean you never have to wash your clothes because you have an endless free supply of laundry soap? See how foolish your argument is?

So how many times do we have to go to church to be saved? How may good deeds do we have to do? What's the magic number? And what happens if we stumble even once? What did Christ's death do for us? Anything? Or did he die in vain? :o

 

[tim-from-pa]

The point is that according to God, a disobedient son can lose not only his inheritance but his life. Don’t be telling people that once you’re a son, you’ll never lose your salvation, your reward of eternal life. It could be that God will require their blood at your hand for not warning them of the error of their ways. Maybe you have been doing that in ignorance, but now you know better. Don’t do it, Tim.

:o

The first thing that comes to my mind is I John 3:6

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Perhaps a so-called "backslider" in some instances never had a conversion to begin with. Eternal security and OSAS has its manifestation as CONTINUING faith.

AS for inheritance.... brings to mind Israel. Tell me, do they have an inheritance yet or not? Some of them are perceived as disobedient sons.

 

[Solo]

No where in Scripture does it teach that one can lose their salvation. A person is either born again and saved, or not born again and lost. Those who have been given the truth and believe in the historicity of God, Jesus, the Bible and are not born again are lost.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

No where in Scripture does it teach that one can lose their salvation. A person is either born again and saved, or not born again and lost. Those who have been given the truth and believe in the historicity of God, Jesus, the Bible and are not born again are lost.

I believe as you do, that one can not lose their salvation. I do see a couple of hints that suggest that God has something a bit different for "wicked servants". :o
Jesus devoted a lot of teaching to such things, as well as the importance in abiding and obedience.

 

[Heidi]

No where in Scripture does it teach that one can lose their salvation. A person is either born again and saved, or not born again and lost. Those who have been given the truth and believe in the historicity of God, Jesus, the Bible and are not born again are lost.

Amen! Particularly since there is nowhere in scripure that tells us how many good deeds we have to do to earn our way to heaven. In fact it says the exact opposite all over the NT that there is not one righteous man, not one.

 

[AVBunyan]

I know I sound like a broken record but the confusion stems from a lack of understanding of what is true scriptural salvation and what takes place at salvation.

The average saint cannot expound it nor can he put it down in a simple paragraph. Just ask them to and find out for yourself.

I've tried here on this forum and mercy!

God bless

 

[tim-from-pa]

That's it! I had enough of this stuffing! (or puppy-sh#^) :-D

I'm also one of the few British-Israelites that likes Jayne Mansfield. I'll hang out at her board for awhile. :

 

[Fnerb]

I believe as you do, that one can not lose their salvation. I do see a couple of hints that suggest that God has something a bit different for "wicked servants". :o
Jesus devoted a lot of teaching to such things, as well as the importance in abiding and obedience.

You are missing my point...

I can't speak for unread, but my point about losing salvation is this...

Right now anyone of us has the power to completely forsake our faith. Any one of us could do it. We could turn to a life of sin, not caring what God has to say. Any one of us. Which is why it's so important to spend time in the word each day, daily repent of our sins, daily come to the cross. If you were to completely walk away from your faith what would happen? First it's guilt, but if you manage to surpress it long enough, eventually it will be quiet.

Humanly speaking each one of us has the ability to reject God and his grace for us. I'm not saying God has chosen you to reject him (fatalism) i'm saying you have chosen to ignore the means to forgiveness.

I hope i'm coming through understood.