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SOF Sin Nature

StoveBolts

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JohnDB , WIP, JLB, OzSpen

I'd like to discuss the "Sin Nature" and it's implications toward the eternal home of infants, mentally challenged or culturally deprived societies that have never heard the gospel let alone the name of Jesus.

I would like to hash this out and come up with a single paragraph to replace our current statement listed below as I find the below lacking in these areas.

We support the biblical teaching that all people are lost in sin and are born with a sinful nature. They can be saved by repentance, forgiveness and faith in Jesus Christ's death (blood sacrifice) and resurrection. No human merit or performance earns salvation
 

RevSRE

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IF we want to be clear ad honest there is a lot of work needed here.
We are saved by Accepting and Confessing Jesus as LORD.

LORD
Rom 10:9 That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture says, Whosoever believes on him shall not be ashamed.
The early Church gave true loyalty to Jesus as LORD. We have little idea of what the word “LORD” means. The ancient soldiers knelt as subjects before their Lord, bowled their head in respect before their Lord, swore by their position or weapon of battle their LIFE to their Lord, YES, it still means that today. Calling Jesus Lord means I give Him everything, My Life, all I have, all I dream of being.


Righteousness
Here we come to a most important pair of ideas, Grace and works (right living).
. The righteousness of God is needed because man has no righteousness acceptable to God. No one was ever saved by the Law of Moses for by the law is the knowledge of sin. And there were the traditions and laws of men that date back to Ancient Times which said man by knowledge and his ability can overcome evil and come to God.
Only obedience to the Self-existent Holy God and His Righteousness are good enough to come into the presence of God. No one has ever lived up to the Glory of God in never failing to obey Him in all things. We are all still under the Law, because the Law has always been to point out what “Sin” is and not saving any one from sin.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
No man is or can be saved by the law or any other power of man or earth.
the righteousness of God is manifested ie made known to man.
In Adam, God gave Adam the Blood sacrifice and the promise of a Messiah.
The promise was repeated in Noah, Abraham, Moses, and the Prophets.
Some 79 times in the OT God said “Hear my Voice (word), and keep my commandments and I will be your GOD. NOT the Law but OBEDIENCE.
The righteousness of God which is ours in GRACE by faith in Jesus Christ
Made Righteous freely by His Grace through the propitiation in Jesus Christ.
Grace is the unmerited gift of a loving Father to meet our need in what we could not do.
faith is when the TRUTH of that gift becomes real to me and I accept it without having to see the evidence.

SIN;
We must define a word here, it is used in so many ways and most wrong, we need to get it meaning right.
SIN = ἁμαρτάνω hamartanō
Thayer Definition:
1) to be without a share in
2) to miss the mark
Rom 3:23 for all miss the mark and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:23 for all are without a share in the glory of God,
BUT, LOOK AT THE VERSE, IT SAYS WE MISS THE MARK OF THE GLORY OF GOD CREATED IN US!! WE miss the mark, fail to follow the PATH, AND FAIL TO SHARE IN GOD’S GLORY. WE FAIL TO OBEY GOD!
God created mankind with the ability and right to CHOOSE to OBEY HIM or NOT!
Satan's victory in the Garden gave him a hold in decieving People to think they did not need God. But, forever to disobey God is SIN!!
The Idea of SIN being great or small, seems to me to be an inconstancy in thought. Sin, to leave the path, or to miss God’s glory is to Disobey GOD!

I ask what is there that we do that is “the Source of our SIN beyond a choice to disobey GOD”. There is no work that we may do to gain, deserve, or to earn God’s Grace. I will also say there is no act or work we may do to gain, deserve, or earn rejection from grace and a place in Hell beyond a choice to reject GOD. Man rejecting God will live as he chooses and all the evil resulting there is only the natural behavior of rejecting God. This evil shows one that rejects God, BUT, the subject is still a Choice Obey God or Not. We spend too much time focused on “Evil” and not enough time really focused on “Knowing GOD!”
God’s Grace is freely offered, and we by faith accept or ignore that offer.


We support the biblical teaching that all people are lost in sin
and are born with a sinful nature.
They can be saved by
repentance, forgiveness and faith in Jesus Christ's death (blood sacrifice) and resurrection. No human merit or performance earns salvation
 

StoveBolts

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IF we want to be clear ad honest there is a lot of work needed here.
We are saved by Accepting and Confessing Jesus as LORD.

LORD
Rom 10:9 That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture says, Whosoever believes on him shall not be ashamed.
The early Church gave true loyalty to Jesus as LORD. We have little idea of what the word “LORD” means. The ancient soldiers knelt as subjects before their Lord, bowled their head in respect before their Lord, swore by their position or weapon of battle their LIFE to their Lord, YES, it still means that today. Calling Jesus Lord means I give Him everything, My Life, all I have, all I dream of being.


Righteousness
Here we come to a most important pair of ideas, Grace and works (right living).
. The righteousness of God is needed because man has no righteousness acceptable to God. No one was ever saved by the Law of Moses for by the law is the knowledge of sin. And there were the traditions and laws of men that date back to Ancient Times which said man by knowledge and his ability can overcome evil and come to God.
Only obedience to the Self-existent Holy God and His Righteousness are good enough to come into the presence of God. No one has ever lived up to the Glory of God in never failing to obey Him in all things. We are all still under the Law, because the Law has always been to point out what “Sin” is and not saving any one from sin.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
No man is or can be saved by the law or any other power of man or earth.
the righteousness of God is manifested ie made known to man.
In Adam, God gave Adam the Blood sacrifice and the promise of a Messiah.
The promise was repeated in Noah, Abraham, Moses, and the Prophets.
Some 79 times in the OT God said “Hear my Voice (word), and keep my commandments and I will be your GOD. NOT the Law but OBEDIENCE.
The righteousness of God which is ours in GRACE by faith in Jesus Christ
Made Righteous freely by His Grace through the propitiation in Jesus Christ.
Grace is the unmerited gift of a loving Father to meet our need in what we could not do.
faith is when the TRUTH of that gift becomes real to me and I accept it without having to see the evidence.

SIN;
We must define a word here, it is used in so many ways and most wrong, we need to get it meaning right.
SIN = ἁμαρτάνω hamartanō
Thayer Definition:
1) to be without a share in
2) to miss the mark
Rom 3:23 for all miss the mark and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:23 for all are without a share in the glory of God,
BUT, LOOK AT THE VERSE, IT SAYS WE MISS THE MARK OF THE GLORY OF GOD CREATED IN US!! WE miss the mark, fail to follow the PATH, AND FAIL TO SHARE IN GOD’S GLORY. WE FAIL TO OBEY GOD!
God created mankind with the ability and right to CHOOSE to OBEY HIM or NOT!
Satan's victory in the Garden gave him a hold in decieving People to think they did not need God. But, forever to disobey God is SIN!!
The Idea of SIN being great or small, seems to me to be an inconstancy in thought. Sin, to leave the path, or to miss God’s glory is to Disobey GOD!

I ask what is there that we do that is “the Source of our SIN beyond a choice to disobey GOD”. There is no work that we may do to gain, deserve, or to earn God’s Grace. I will also say there is no act or work we may do to gain, deserve, or earn rejection from grace and a place in Hell beyond a choice to reject GOD. Man rejecting God will live as he chooses and all the evil resulting there is only the natural behavior of rejecting God. This evil shows one that rejects God, BUT, the subject is still a Choice Obey God or Not. We spend too much time focused on “Evil” and not enough time really focused on “Knowing GOD!”
God’s Grace is freely offered, and we by faith accept or ignore that offer.


We support the biblical teaching that all people are lost in sin
and are born with a sinful nature.
They can be saved by
repentance, forgiveness and faith in Jesus Christ's death (blood sacrifice) and resurrection. No human merit or performance earns salvation
That's all good stuff Rev, but it does anchor the idea that Adam was created with the sin nature. Hear me out. I think we get the sin nature confused with original sin, which St. Augustine introduced in relation to the fall.
If we look at the law, its purpose is to show us our sin. Adam and Eve were given one law, and that law exposed their sinful nature. The fall would then be a result of their sinful nature.

James 113-15 niv puts it this way.

13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Genesis 36 a niv says this.

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.

We see that Eve's desire justified eating what God forbid resulting in the first sin which ripples even today.

I don't see any difference with the desires of Eve and my own evil desires. Eve sinned and I sin and both Eve and I have missed the mark and fallen short of the glory of God. In this we are similar.

We know Eve's first sin, but I do not recall my first sin.

Some say that if one does not repent and confess Jesus as Lord, they will spend eternity in Hell. What I hear you saying, and what I agree with is the active and consistent rejection of God's word that brings God's wrath upon all of us.

This brings me back to infants or the mentally challenged. How can they repent and confess Jesus as Lord if their mental faculties are not developed to a state where this is possible? Take babies that die in the womb, or those that die shortly after birth. Or what about the 9 year old boy raised by abusive parents and never knew who Jesus is and he dies because he was struck by his father?

If we are going to include the sin nature in our SOF, I want to make sure it's qualified. I don't believe the sin nature and original sin are the same, but they are often confused. Our SOF should eliminate this confusion. We don't need folks thinking babies who die will dwell in hell
 

ezra

 
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We don't need folks thinking babies who die will dwell in hell
that not what the sin nature is any one with common sense should know babies do not die and go to hell . there has to be a sin awareness and understanding of the need to be saved . this varies in age for understanding . i dunno maybe my input is not wanted
 

RevSRE

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I think we get the sin nature confused with original sin, which St. Augustine introduced in relation to the fall.
I agree with you. The problem is in understanding the "SIN NATURE" This is an area where people just get lost in what HAS BEEN SAID and cannot seem to see what happened.

Good and EVIL
Adam in the garden fellow shipped daily with God. “They walked in the garden in the Cool of the day”. God taught Adam all things he needed to know. Adam knew the GOODNESS OF GOD. Then Adam DISOBEYED GOD and the fellowship was broken, Blood had to be shed, Adam was put from the garden so he could not eat of the tree of life. He had the work hard till the ground by the sweat of his face to eat. He was apart from God. He knew what evil meant, “To disobey God”.
Which point do we need as the basis, the foundation of our theology?
1. God created Man for Fellowship and gave man “The Image of God” so he could truly fellowship with God. Man has to have enough of the “Image of God” to Truly Commune with and Relate to God. Man was made to Rule with Dominion over the earth. God gave man enough free will so that he could and has the right to make choices on his own, and
God will honor the choices.
2. God from eternity knew man would sin, creation and God’s plan was to provide a foundation for the plan of saving Grace. When Adam disobeyed God he became totally depraved and cannot come to God by choice. Man has no free will or a will so corrupted that he cannot use it to know God.

The problem is there is NO SIN NATURE ! There is “The Image of God” so mankind could truly fellowship with God; There is a God given Free Choice. Yes I know what all the Mystic religions say and they are Satan's counterfit. Sin nature and man can come to god on his own are lies of satan.
Yes satan decieved and lied. Yes Adam and Eve made the wrong choice,
They Disobeyed GOD.
The so called " Sin Nature" in man is a free choice to obey God OR NOT! All to often man looks at the beautiful wonders the "World" has to offer and decides to turn from God and do what seems to benifit man. But to disobey God is always a problem.
Salvation is to choose to Obey the LORD as master of all I have.
Of course you have to have the mental and physica lability to make the choice or such a one is covered by God's Grace any way.
 
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ezra

 
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That's all good stuff Rev, but it does anchor the idea that Adam was created with the sin nature. Hear me out. I think we get the sin nature confused with original sin, which St. Augustine introduced in relation to the fall.
If we look at the law, its purpose is to show us our sin. Adam and Eve were given one law, and that law exposed their sinful nature. The fall would then be a result of their sinful nature.

James 113-15 niv puts it this way.

13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Genesis 36 a niv says this.

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.

We see that Eve's desire justified eating what God forbid resulting in the first sin which ripples even today.

I don't see any difference with the desires of Eve and my own evil desires. Eve sinned and I sin and both Eve and I have missed the mark and fallen short of the glory of God. In this we are similar.

We know Eve's first sin, but I do not recall my first sin.

Some say that if one does not repent and confess Jesus as Lord, they will spend eternity in Hell. What I hear you saying, and what I agree with is the active and consistent rejection of God's word that brings God's wrath upon all of us.

This brings me back to infants or the mentally challenged. How can they repent and confess Jesus as Lord if their mental faculties are not developed to a state where this is possible? Take babies that die in the womb, or those that die shortly after birth. Or what about the 9 year old boy raised by abusive parents and never knew who Jesus is and he dies because he was struck by his father?

If we are going to include the sin nature in our SOF, I want to make sure it's qualified. I don't believe the sin nature and original sin are the same, but they are often confused. Our SOF should eliminate this confusion. We don't need folks thinking babies who die will dwell in hell
i am very sure that there are those who hold to this.. but its not Bible this is what i mean on trying to be so theologically correct . we soon if not careful turn to legalism . i fail to see how A God of grace love mercy would send anyone with innocence of not understanding sin to hell . you take a person mentally challenged if not careful can turn to fit of rage harm or even kill. there mind does not understand. .
i helped do a funeral for a new born around 5 and 1/2 months a little Boy lived about a month or so.. what im saying im in agreement with you on God not sending him to Hell . its your forum your money so do as you please on these clarifications . your first S O F you wrote out was excellent . all these what if only creates more confusion. so imo and my advice what it is worth the rest of this as per S o f IS NOT NEEDED. it does make a good discussion with scripture . but not in this section . might i add on your first S O F i thought wow if i was starting a new church i would like to use that . but unfortunately in a assembly we do have to go a few steps farther in clarification.
 

WIP

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that not what the sin nature is any one with common sense should know babies do not die and go to hell . there has to be a sin awareness and understanding of the need to be saved . this varies in age for understanding . i dunno maybe my input is not wanted
Common sense is not so common. We have to be careful not to live according to our emotions but rather live according to the Word of God.
 

ezra

 
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Common sense is not so common. We have to be careful not to live according to our emotions but rather live according to the Word of God.
dont you think the Good Lord gave us common sense? even most lost will acknowledge sin.. then you have those who say they live by the word of God who twist it for them
 

OzSpen

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JohnDB , WIP, JLB, OzSpen

I'd like to discuss the "Sin Nature" and it's implications toward the eternal home of infants, mentally challenged or culturally deprived societies that have never heard the gospel let alone the name of Jesus.

I would like to hash this out and come up with a single paragraph to replace our current statement listed below as I find the below lacking in these areas.

We support the biblical teaching that all people are lost in sin and are born with a sinful nature. They can be saved by repentance, forgiveness and faith in Jesus Christ's death (blood sacrifice) and resurrection. No human merit or performance earns salvation
SB,

What I wrote in the 'New Statement of Faith' thread applies here:

As for the sinful nature (or, original sin), I consider that Wayne Grudem's use of 'inherited sin' rather than 'original sin' has merit. Therefore, I suggest this to be included in the SoF:

All human beings were represented by Adam when he was tested in the Garden of Eden. Since he was people's representative, Adam sinned and God counted all people guilty (including Adam) before God. From the beginning of our existence as persons we have inherited sin, but it is still our sin because we commit sin (see Rom 5:12-21; adapted from Grudem 1994:494-495).​

For infants and mentally challenged, the above statement covers them because 'inherited sin' must be accompanied by those who 'commit sin'.

Infants and the mentally challenged don't have the ability to understand and respond to Jesus in repentance and faith. This also means they have an inability to reject Jesus.

We do have Jesus' statement about infants and heaven: "Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me. Don’t keep them away. The kingdom of heaven belongs to people like them"' (Matt 19:14 NIRV).

I can't find any specific biblical statement regarding salvation and the mentally challenged. However, because of God's nature - his love, grace and mercy - it would be consistent with Matt 19:14 for Jesus to apply this verses to the mentally challenged who are under the umbrella of "people like them (children)".

I understand that mentally handicapped people are covered by this principle as well. The Word of God does not specifically say this, however. Knowing the love, grace, and mercy of God, this would seem consistent with His character.

There is some insight in Deut 1:39 (NIRV), 'You said your little ones would be taken prisoner. But they will enter the land. They do not yet know right from wrong. But I will give them the land. They will take it as their own' (emphasis added).

Regarding those who have never heard the Gospel, this is what Scripture states:
18 God shows his anger from heaven. It is against all the godless and evil things people do. They are so evil that they say no to the truth. 19 The truth about God is plain to them. God has made it plain. 20 Ever since the world was created it has been possible to see the qualities of God that are not seen. I’m talking about his eternal power and about the fact that he is God. Those things can be seen in what he has made. So people have no excuse for what they do.

21 They knew God. But they didn’t honor him as God. They didn’t thank him. Their thinking became worthless. Their foolish hearts became dark. 22 They claimed to be wise. But they made fools of themselves. 23 They would rather have statues of gods than the glorious God who lives forever. Their statues of gods are made to look like people, birds, animals and reptiles.
24 So God let them go. He allowed them to do what their sinful hearts wanted to (Rom 1:18-24a NIRV).​
The person without the Gospel when faced with God will have to answer the questions: What did you do with the evidence I (God) gave you in creation of my existence? What did you do with these pointers to me as the truth of God that are seen in what God has has made?

These are thoughts from a fellow traveller.

Oz

Works consulted

Grudem, W 1994. Systematic Theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.
 

OzSpen

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JohnDB , WIP, JLB, OzSpen

I'd like to discuss the "Sin Nature" and it's implications toward the eternal home of infants, mentally challenged or culturally deprived societies that have never heard the gospel let alone the name of Jesus.

I would like to hash this out and come up with a single paragraph to replace our current statement listed below as I find the below lacking in these areas.

We support the biblical teaching that all people are lost in sin and are born with a sinful nature. They can be saved by repentance, forgiveness and faith in Jesus Christ's death (blood sacrifice) and resurrection. No human merit or performance earns salvation
SB,

Infants and the mentally challenged don't have the ability to understand and respond to Jesus in repentance and faith. This also means they have an inability to reject Jesus.

We do have Jesus' statement about infants and heaven: "Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me. Don’t keep them away. The kingdom of heaven belongs to people like them"' (Matt 19:14 NIRV).

I can't find any specific biblical statement regarding salvation and the mentally challenged. However, because of God's nature - his love, grace and mercy - it would be consistent with Matt 19:14 for Jesus to apply this verses to the mentally challenged who are under the umbrella of "people like them (children)".

We can postulate that mentally handicapped people are covered by this principle as well. The Word of God does not specifically say this, however. Knowing the love, grace, and mercy of God, this would seem consistent with His character.

There is some insight in Deut 1:39 (NIRV), 'You said your little ones would be taken prisoner. But they will enter the land. They do not yet know right from wrong. But I will give them the land. They will take it as their own' (emphasis added).

Regarding those who have never heard the Gospel, this is what Scripture states:

18 God shows his anger from heaven. It is against all the godless and evil things people do. They are so evil that they say no to the truth. 19 The truth about God is plain to them. God has made it plain. 20 Ever since the world was created it has been possible to see the qualities of God that are not seen. I’m talking about his eternal power and about the fact that he is God. Those things can be seen in what he has made. So people have no excuse for what they do.​
21 They knew God. But they didn’t honor him as God. They didn’t thank him. Their thinking became worthless. Their foolish hearts became dark. 22 They claimed to be wise. But they made fools of themselves. 23 They would rather have statues of gods than the glorious God who lives forever. Their statues of gods are made to look like people, birds, animals and reptiles.​
24 So God let them go. He allowed them to do what their sinful hearts wanted to (Rom 1:18-24a NIRV).​
The person without the Gospel when faced with God will have to answer the questions: What did you do with the evidence I (God) gave you in creation of my existence? What did you do with these pointers to me (God) in creation?

A W Tozer wrote:

Justice, when used of God, is a name we give to the way God is, nothing more; and when God acts justly He is not doing so to conform to an independent criterion, but simply acting like Himself in a given situation.... God is His own self-existent principle of moral equity, and when He sentences evil men or rewards the righteous, He simply acts like Himself from within, uninfluenced by anything that is not Himself” (A. W. Tozer, The Knowledge of the Holy, pp. 93-94).​
This teaching is straight from Scripture. Of God's nature, Moses wrote:

He is the Rock, his works are perfect,
and all his ways are just.
A faithful God who does no wrong,
upright and just is he' (Deut 32:4 NIV).

Abraham appealed to God's character: 'Far be it from you to do such a thing – to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?’ (Gen 18:25 NIV).

Through Isaiah, God declared: 'I, the Lord, speak the truth; I declare what is right' (Isa 45:19b NIV).

Therefore, unbelievers who have not heard the gospel will receive justice from God - God's kind of justice.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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The problem is there is NO SIN NATURE ! There is “The Image of God” so mankind could truly fellowship with God; There is a God given Free Choice. Yes I know what all the Mystic religions say and they are Satan's counterfit. Sin nature and man can come to god on his own are lies of satan.
Yes satan decieved and lied. Yes Adam and Eve made the wrong choice,
They Disobeyed GOD.
The so called " Sin Nature" in man is a free choice to obey God OR NOT!
Rev,

How then do you account for the content of this Scripture: 'Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned' (Rom 5:12 NIV)?

Oz
 

OzSpen

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JohnDB , WIP, JLB, OzSpen

I'd like to discuss the "Sin Nature" and it's implications toward the eternal home of infants, mentally challenged or culturally deprived societies that have never heard the gospel let alone the name of Jesus.

I would like to hash this out and come up with a single paragraph to replace our current statement listed below as I find the below lacking in these areas.

We support the biblical teaching that all people are lost in sin and are born with a sinful nature. They can be saved by repentance, forgiveness and faith in Jesus Christ's death (blood sacrifice) and resurrection. No human merit or performance earns salvation
SB,

Based on my explanations above, this is my single paragraph (a bit long) to replace the bold above:

We support the biblical teaching that all people are born with inherited sin and are lost eternally. They can be saved through repentance, forgiveness and faith in Jesus Christ's death (atonement) and resurrection. No human merit or performance earns salvation. For children and the mentally challenged, they are covered by Jesus’ teaching, 'The kingdom of heaven belongs to people like them" (Matt 19:14 NIRV). Those who have not heard the gospel, 'have no excuse’ before God because they have not pursued the evidence for God in creation (Rom 1:18—24a NIRV).​

Oz
 

RevSRE

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Rev,

How then do you account for the content of this Scripture: 'Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned' (Rom 5:12 NIV)?

Oz
We are in an area here where many have different ideas, I will not debate this with you.
The word sin the idea exposed here is so missunderstood we cannot get the meaning from modern English. The idea here of SIN is to disobey God. Anything we call sin is something God said DO or DONOT DO either way it is to disobey God. Adam disobeyed God, God said do not eat of the tree Adam and Eve did it any way. They disobeyed God. Now if there is some other error here if they did more than I understand please explain it to me all I see is disobedience. And you could say the gave Satan a victory is decieving men so he could cause people to use their Choice to do what they wanted instead of obeying God. Death was the result God stated, and at this point mankind began to die. Death passed to all, for all disobey God.
But PLEASE do not stop here there is too much to loose.
Rom 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
Rom 5:16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
Rom 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

I do not have a dead in sin faith, I am saved by Grace, indwelled by the Holy Spirit, adopted in the Family of God. I am a child of the king. Yes Adam disobeyed God, Yes I have disobeyed GOD. BUT, In JESUS I am saved I am a child of the KING.
Do not let a "to sinful to know God" religion destroy the
JOY OF KNOWING THE FATHER!!
In Jesus all that Adam did was made right and more too Jesus is our intersessor at the Fathers side Because we Proclaim Jesus as Lord and Keep His commandments as best any human can,
He tells the Father this one in mine. Do not loose the sight of what the scriptures says. Saved by Grace, indwelled by the holy spirit,adopted into the Family, old things forgotten all things made new, we are priest of the Most High God.

Sin all sin is to disobey GOD! what adam did was disobey God; THAT IS THE POINT, Hear My voice and keep my Commandments, and I will be your God!

What the Bible truly says is breath takingly BEAUTIFUL.
 

OzSpen

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We are in an area here where many have different ideas, I will not debate this with you.
The word sin the idea exposed here is so missunderstood (sic) we cannot get the meaning from modern English. The idea here of SIN is to disobey God. Anything we call sin is something God said DO or DO NOT DO either way it is to disobey God.
Rev,

You won't debate the meaning of 'sin' with me but you go on to give your own meaning in modern English.

I read NT Greek and have taught NT Greek.

Why don't we discuss hamartia (sin) in the context of Romans 5:12 (SBLGNT):

Διὰ τοῦτο ὥσπερ δι’ ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου ἡ ἁμαρτία εἰς τὸν κόσμον εἰσῆλθεν καὶ διὰ τῆς ἁμαρτίας ὁ θάνατος, καὶ οὕτως εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους ὁ θάνατος διῆλθεν ἐφ’ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον—​

I do not have a dead in sin faith, I am saved by Grace, indwelled by the Holy Spirit, adopted in the Family of God. I am a child of the king. Yes Adam disobeyed God, Yes I have disobeyed GOD. BUT, In JESUS I am saved I am a child of the KING.
Do not let a "to sinful to know God" religion destroy the
JOY OF KNOWING THE FATHER!!
Amen! That's my kind of faith. But before Jesus set me free and I was born again. I was 'dead in sin'. How do I know? The Bible tells me so! :sohappy

Eph 2:1-3 (NLT) explains my wicked, dead in sin state before I was liberated by Jesus:

Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world.[a] He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.​
Oz
 
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ezra

 
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sin is missing the mark all have sinned and come short of the glory.. past tense once saved were no longer the sinner but a sinner who has been saved by grace through faith.

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
sin no longer has Dominion over me i am under grace . sin was defeated at Calvary . that is scripture :amen i like what rev said we spend to much time focus on sin/evil than righteousness :amen
 

ezra

 
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We are in an area here where many have different ideas, I will not debate this with you.
The word sin the idea exposed here is so missunderstood we cannot get the meaning from modern English. The idea here of SIN is to disobey God. Anything we call sin is something God said DO or DONOT DO either way it is to disobey God. Adam disobeyed God, God said do not eat of the tree Adam and Eve did it any way. They disobeyed God. Now if there is some other error here if they did more than I understand please explain it to me all I see is disobedience. And you could say the gave Satan a victory is decieving men so he could cause people to use their Choice to do what they wanted instead of obeying God. Death was the result God stated, and at this point mankind began to die. Death passed to all, for all disobey God.
But PLEASE do not stop here there is too much to loose.
Rom 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
Rom 5:16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
Rom 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

I do not have a dead in sin faith, I am saved by Grace, indwelled by the Holy Spirit, adopted in the Family of God. I am a child of the king. Yes Adam disobeyed God, Yes I have disobeyed GOD. BUT, In JESUS I am saved I am a child of the KING.
Do not let a "to sinful to know God" religion destroy the
JOY OF KNOWING THE FATHER!!
In Jesus all that Adam did was made right and more too Jesus is our intersessor at the Fathers side Because we Proclaim Jesus as Lord and Keep His commandments as best any human can,
He tells the Father this one in mine. Do not loose the sight of what the scriptures says. Saved by Grace, indwelled by the holy spirit,adopted into the Family, old things forgotten all things made new, we are priest of the Most High God.

Sin all sin is to disobey GOD! what adam did was disobey God; THAT IS THE POINT, Hear My voice and keep my Commandments, and I will be your God!

What the Bible truly says is breath takingly BEAUTIFUL.
:agreed:amen
 

JLB

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Take babies that die in the womb, or those that die shortly after birth. Or what about the 9 year old boy raised by abusive parents and never knew who Jesus is and he dies because he was struck by his father?
JohnDB , WIP, JLB, OzSpen

I'd like to discuss the "Sin Nature" and it's implications toward the eternal home of infants, mentally challenged or culturally deprived societies that have never heard the gospel let alone the name of Jesus.

I would like to hash this out and come up with a single paragraph to replace our current statement listed below as I find the below lacking in these areas.

We support the biblical teaching that all people are lost in sin and are born with a sinful nature. They can be saved by repentance, forgiveness and faith in Jesus Christ's death (blood sacrifice) and resurrection. No human merit or performance earns salvation

The following statement is my opinion based on what I read in the scriptures, as well as the following passage.

It’s also my opinion that we should not put anything like this in the SOF, but discuss if the subject should come up in a thread.

Of course the final decision is yours to make.


I believe children and those with mental incapabilities who have no knowledge of good and evil, being innocent in the eyes of God, will be with Him if they should die in this state.


Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it. Deuteronomy 1:39





JLB
 
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StoveBolts

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SB,

Based on my explanations above, this is my single paragraph (a bit long) to replace the bold above:

We support the biblical teaching that all people are born with inherited sin and are lost eternally. They can be saved through repentance, forgiveness and faith in Jesus Christ's death (atonement) and resurrection. No human merit or performance earns salvation. For children and the mentally challenged, they are covered by Jesus’ teaching, 'The kingdom of heaven belongs to people like them" (Matt 19:14 NIRV). Those who have not heard the gospel, 'have no excuse’ before God because they have not pursued the evidence for God in creation (Rom 1:18—24a NIRV).​

Oz
Thanks again Spencer. I've taken what both you and JLB have written and combined it.

As far as your reference to Romans 1:18-24a, I understood that to be geared toward those who do evil deeds with a seared conscience. Prior studies of mine through arduous exegesis have brought me to view those passages through the biblical event of the flood, then the tower of Babel. Through the 8 that were saved, they understood who God was. However, as they spread out and multiplied, they exchanged the truth for a lie and made God out to be "other gods". Each society that went this way always ended up with a King or ruler that eventually viewed himself as deity.

However, we see those who did not exchange the truth for a lie, like Shiphrah, Puah Rahab and Ruth, and there are others, such as Melchisedec etc.

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

What I see are two main ideas coming from Paul. Those who understand God through his creation and harden their hearts, and those who understand God through creation and soften their hearts. Without ever hearing the Gospel of Jesus (and there are millions who never had the opportunity to hear the name of Jesus let alone his plan for salvation), they will be judged as Paul describes in Romans 1 and 2. Some will go to heaven and others to eternal damnation. God will judge them.

What are your thoughts on this? JLB, I would be interested in your thoughts as well.
 

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