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SOF Sin Nature

StoveBolts

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The site's statement of faith is problematic in that it seems to contradict itself. What I've shared is certainly in keeping with, "ALL people are born with inherited sin and are lost eternally." (New emphasis mine.)
It is not mandatory that members agree with our SOF, but it is expected that you respect it as well as our members who agree with it.
 

Kkamagwi

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It is not mandatory that members agree with our SOF, but it is expected that you respect it as well as our members who agree with it.
Okay, and I've meant no disrespect. As I've said, my beliefs regarding this issue are certainly in keeping with at least part of the statement of faith.
 

StoveBolts

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Okay, and I've meant no disrespect. As I've said, my beliefs regarding this issue are certainly in keeping with at least part of the statement of faith.
And I, as well as others will appreciate that. Thank you. Our understanding of scripture is what guided our SOF and I would be willing to outline them for you as long as you remained open to learn why we came to our conclusion and not for purpose of debate. We discourage debate.

We call you no less a brother (or Sister) in Christ for differing with us. We want to Foster unity, not uniformity. I'm sure we have more in common that can unite us than what would divide us.

Jeff
 

OzSpen

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What Jesus accomplished on the Cross has given the Holy Spirit the legal right to live in us, to help us. The Cross has given us access into the Most Holy Place by the Blood of Jesus (Hebrews 10:19 NIV). Every single blessing received by the Child of God comes through Calvary.
iLOVE,

You have misquoted the NIV of Heb 10:19 (NIV), which states: 'Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus...'

It is NOT by the Cross but by the blood of Jesus. The difference is important. Jimmy Swaggart inserts the cross when stauros is not used but ho haima Iēsous (the blood of Jesus).

Oz
 

OzSpen

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Can a baby be given a present (in this case faith)? Can a baby be rescued? Can a baby have new life breathed into them by God?
Kk,

So, was Jesus lying when he stated: 'Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these"' (Matt 19:14 NIV)?

Oz
 

OzSpen

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If you're saying that a person must do something to gain salvation, that's salvation by works and I reject that notion. What is required to be saved is faith, and faith is a gift from God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Kk,

What command did Paul and Silas give to the Philippian jailer in Acts 16:31 (NIV)?

Oz
 

Kkamagwi

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Kk,

What command did Paul and Silas give to the Philippian jailer in Acts 16:31 (NIV)?

Oz
Since you linked to it Oz, I trust you know the answer.

---
The jailer asked Paul and Silas what he must do to be saved.

And they replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved - you and your household."

The missionaries next explained salvation's way, told the jailer the Lord's Word, together with all in his household: infants, children, youths and adults. It was an instruction preceding baptism.

And so was the jailer moved by God's Word that he took the two prisoners in the night's same hour and washed off their stripes.

And Paul and Silas, in turn, gave to both the jailer and all his household a washing to remove their souls' stains, by baptizing them all.

Baptism assured to the jailer Jesus' grace, which he needed so on account of shame which had come upon him with his sin's realization.

The jailer took both Paul and Silas into his house as guests; the table was set for them and a meal served unlike that which they'd gotten in prison.

God had worked faith in the jailer and in all the members of his household.

God still works faith in the hearts of God's elect today, and makes them willing to give evidence of their faith in kind deeds. This is rejoicing's source in Christians.
 

Kkamagwi

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Let's start with Psalm 51 which you lead off with. Can you tell me what the context of this Psalm is? In other words, what prompted the Prophet David to say such things?
Psalm 51 is to the chief musician, for public performance, as a confession of David before the congregation, showing that he had truly repented for having gone in to Bathsheba.

For a year after adultery, David hadn't repented. It was when Nathan had told him, “You're he!” that the latter’s resistance was broken and he confessed his shame.

He was constrained, as he realized his act's impact more and more, to plead with God for God's mercy, and as for the strength which would let him devote his life to his shame's erasure.

David pleads for mercy. He confesses unworthiness and he clings to God as salvation. He notes that God erases shame only for God's own sake.

God alone can cleanse missionaries from their shame. Shame covers people polluting the heart and mind. God cleanses people of their shame through the Gospel.

God led David to approach God with such a petition. David's shame stood before him.

The curse attaching to shame's that humans can't erase it, that it rises up before them, even though God has forgiven.

God has David cling to God, turn to God for mercy. David, like all, was sinful from his conception, filled with humanity's corruption.

David thus confessed his shame. David knew that God desires truth in the inward parts, without deceit to mar the value of his confession.

David knew that God would give him wisdom, which has its start in God. The longing for wisdom's repentance's mark, and the prayer for this blessing's made by missionaries throughout their lives.

David’s prayer once his shame was erased was that he would be healed and so rejoice, that he would feel the relief following shame's removal. He wanted his shame gone.

A missionary must repeatedly cry for forgiveness, up to their death. The missionary having been created anew in conversion can trust their salvation and focus themself on serving God.

David had felt the pain of being excluded from God's mercy and feared a repetition of the experience. He didn't want to return to that year's condition, persist in his opposition to God and so be lost.

Every missionary prays to God to be kept against rejection of the Gospel and to destruction. God's salvation's the height of the missionary’s happiness, if God turns to them in grace.

God renewed David's life, worked sanctification in him. God inspired him to want to make known to shameful people what God had done for him in delivering him from his shame.

God could give faith to people through God's Word spoken ri them by David. Through his confession and instruction, God could give faith to others.

David wanted to be freed from his shame, which was an enemy trying to oppress him. God give him trust that God was the only one who could help and deliver in such straits.

David offered to sing of the righteousness given to him by God. He'd sing a praise song for the grace given him. He trusted that God wanted faith expressed in good works.

David trusted that God's sacrifices are a spirit that's crushed by the consciousness of one's shame. He says that God delights in a heart from which pride has been removed.

God favors God's elect. God will build the walls of God's Church, of God's people. God wouldn't let shameful leaders take faith from the heart of missionaries.

David was ready to lead the people to sacrifice ad thanksgiving for the mercy which he'd received.

A truly penitent person will offer to God the sacrifices of their heart, lips and hands, and God will take pleasure in such offerings, if only shame has first been removed.
 
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StoveBolts

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Psalm 51 is to the chief musician, for public performance, as a confession of David before the congregation, showing that he had truly repented for having gone in to Bathsheba.

For a year after adultery, David hadn't repented. It was when Nathan had told him, “You're he!” that the latter’s resistance was broken and he confessed his shame.

He was constrained, as he realized his act's impact more and more, to plead with God for God's mercy, and as for the strength which would let him devote his life to his shame's erasure.

David pleads for mercy. He confesses unworthiness and he clings to God as salvation. He notes that God erases shame only for God's own sake.

God alone can cleanse missionaries from their shame. Shame covers people polluting the heart and mind. God cleanses people of their shame through the Gospel.

God led David to approach God with such a petition. David's shame stood before him.

The curse attaching to shame's that humans can't erase it, that it rises up before them, even though God has forgiven.

God has David cling to God, turn to God for mercy. David, like all, was sinful from his conception, filled with humanity's corruption.

David thus confessed his shame. David knew that God desires truth in the inward parts, without deceit to mar the value of his confession.

David knew that God would give him wisdom, which has its start in God. The longing for wisdom's repentance's mark, and the prayer for this blessing's made by missionaries throughout their lives.

David’s prayer once his shame was erased was that he would be healed and so rejoice, that he would feel the relief following shame's removal. He wanted his shame gone.

A missionary must repeatedly cry for forgiveness, up to their death. The missionary having been created anew in conversion can trust their salvation and focus themself on serving God.

David had felt the pain of being excluded from God's mercy and feared a repetition of the experience. He didn't want to return to that year's condition, persist in his opposition to God and so be lost.

Every missionary prays to God to be kept against rejection of the Gospel and to destruction. God's salvation's the height of the missionary’s happiness, if God turns to them in grace.

God renewed David's life, worked sanctification in him. God inspired him to want to make known to shameful people what God had done for him in delivering him from his shame.

God could give faith to people through God's Word spoken ri them by David. Through his confession and instruction, God could give faith to others.

David wanted to be freed from his shame, which was an enemy trying to oppress him. God give him trust that God was the only one who could help and deliver in such straits.

David offered to sing of the righteousness given to him by God. He'd sing a praise song for the grace given him. He trusted that God wanted faith expressed in good works.

David trusted that God's sacrifices are a spirit that's crushed by the consciousness of one's shame. He says that God delights in a heart from which pride has been removed.

God favors God's elect. God will build the walls of God's Church, of God's people. God wouldn't let shameful leaders take faith from the heart of missionaries.

David was ready to lead the people to sacrifice ad thanksgiving for the mercy which he'd received.

A truly penitent person will offer to God the sacrifices of their heart, lips and hands, and God will take pleasure in such offerings, if only shame has first been removed.
Thank you.
How do you view Psalm 139.
Once we view these two Psalms from David, we can then juxtapose them.
 

iLOVE

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iLOVE,

You have misquoted the NIV of Heb 10:19 (NIV), which states: 'Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus...'

It is NOT by the Cross but by the blood of Jesus. The difference is important. Jimmy Swaggart inserts the cross when stauros is not used but ho haima Iēsous (the blood of Jesus).

Oz
The Cross - The Finished Work - The Blood of Jesus - Crucified = ARE THE SAME MEANING
 

Kkamagwi

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Thank you.
How do you view Psalm 139.
Once we view these two Psalms from David, we can then juxtapose them.
I will work on Psalm 139. If you have a point you're trying to get to, why don't you just tell me what it is.
 

StoveBolts

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I will work on Psalm 139. If you have a point you're trying to get to, why don't you just tell me what it is.
We both have a Bible with the same scriptures. Since you opened with your understanding of Psalms 51, I would like your take on Psalms 139. When you have given me your understanding on the two Psalms, I will let you know mine.

The point I'm making is this. I'm not into debating, but I do enjoy sharing our understanding of scripture. Context is a huge part of understanding and if we miss the context, we will miss it's intent. In short, I'm not into throwing around single verses to make my point. We have to take much more into consideration.
 

Kkamagwi

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We both have a Bible with the same scriptures. Since you opened with your understanding of Psalms 51, I would like your take on Psalms 139. When you have given me your understanding on the two Psalms, I will let you know mine.

The point I'm making is this. I'm not into debating, but I do enjoy sharing our understanding of scripture. Context is a huge part of understanding and if we miss the context, we will miss it's intent. In short, I'm not into throwing around single verses to make my point. We have to take much more into consideration.
"It's a trap!" I get the feeling, based on comments you've made on this thread that at least part of your "sharing" will consist of your telling me why you think my understanding is in error. I'm not interested in hearing that StoveBolts.
 

StoveBolts

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"It's a trap!" I get the feeling, based on comments you've made on this thread that at least part of your "sharing" will consist of your telling me why you think my understanding is in error. I'm not interested in hearing that StoveBolts.
I have no interest in trapping you. In my opinion, you are allowed to believe anything your heart desires you to believe.

What I would do is this. Once I understand how you view those passages, I would share my view on those passages. It really doesn't matter to me if you agree with me or disagree with me because I am open for dialog within this thread.

What I don't want, is for you to think it's ok for you to go around challenging our SOF and starting disputes with members not as open as I am who are not as willing as I am to openly listen to your views.

Bottom line, I have no desire to prove you wrong or debate our differences. But I would like to draw mutual respect where it can be had
 

Kkamagwi

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I have no interest in trapping you. In my opinion, you are allowed to believe anything your heart desires you to believe.

What I would do is this. Once I understand how you view those passages, I would share my view on those passages. It really doesn't matter to me if you agree with me or disagree with me because I am open for dialog within this thread.

What I don't want, is for you to think it's ok for you to go around challenging our SOF and starting disputes with members not as open as I am who are not as willing as I am to openly listen to your views.

Bottom line, I have no desire to prove you wrong or debate our differences. But I would like to draw mutual respect where it can be had
StoveBolts, I have not gone around defiantly challenging the SOF and starting disputes with members, and I resist your implication that I have. That was not my reason for starting to post on this site. I came here merely for discussion and fellowship. Things I'm now thinking I can best find elsewhere.
 

OzSpen

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Since you linked to it Oz, I trust you know the answer.

---
The jailer asked Paul and Silas what he must do to be saved.

And they replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved - you and your household."

The missionaries next explained salvation's way, told the jailer the Lord's Word, together with all in his household: infants, children, youths and adults. It was an instruction preceding baptism.

And so was the jailer moved by God's Word that he took the two prisoners in the night's same hour and washed off their stripes.

And Paul and Silas, in turn, gave to both the jailer and all his household a washing to remove their souls' stains, by baptizing them all.

Baptism assured to the jailer Jesus' grace, which he needed so on account of shame which had come upon him with his sin's realization.

The jailer took both Paul and Silas into his house as guests; the table was set for them and a meal served unlike that which they'd gotten in prison.

God had worked faith in the jailer and in all the members of his household.

God still works faith in the hearts of God's elect today, and makes them willing to give evidence of their faith in kind deeds. This is rejoicing's source in Christians.
Kk,

The jailer and his household had to believe. God didn't do the believing for them.

Acts 16:31 used the Greek imperative (command), Πίστευσον = pisteuson. It commands the jailer and his household to believe. They believe, are committed to Jesus.

God had worked faith in the jailer and in all the members of his household.
Please show me in Acts 16 where that is stated.

Oz
 

Kkamagwi

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Kk,

The jailer and his household had to believe. God didn't do the believing for them.

Acts 16:31 used the Greek imperative (command), Πίστευσον = pisteuson. It commands the jailer and his household to believe. They believe, are committed to Jesus.



Please show me in Acts 16 where that is stated.

Oz
Oz, I believe that God's means of grace are God's Word and baptism. It's through these that God gives faith to people. Yes, the people must believe. Where does the gift of faith come from? Why, from God of course. Did the jailer and members of his household hear God's Word? Were the jailer and his household baptized? No one on their own can choose to up and believe because the will is in bondage to sin. It's God alone who is to receive all credit and glory for salvation.
 

OzSpen

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Oz, I believe that God's means of grace are God's Word and baptism. It's through these that God gives faith to people. Yes, the people must believe. Where does the gift of faith come from? Why, from God of course. Did the jailer and members of his household hear God's Word? Were the jailer and his household baptized? No one on their own can choose to up and believe because the will is in bondage to sin. It's God alone who is to receive all credit and glory for salvation.
Kk,

You gave me a pretty good Calvinistic explanation but beginning with 'I believe' is not dealing with the exegesis of Acts 16.

You chose not to answer my question to you about Acts 16.

Oz
 

StoveBolts

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StoveBolts, I have not gone around defiantly challenging the SOF and starting disputes with members, and I resist your implication that I have. That was not my reason for starting to post on this site. I came here merely for discussion and fellowship. Things I'm now thinking I can best find elsewhere.
I'm sorry if you felt like I was accusing you of defiantly challenging our SOF. If I came across that way, it wasn't meant that way. It was more me marking a line in the sand and trying to ask you to have respect for that line.
So far, you've shown great respect, and I can't tell you how much that means.
Thank you.
 

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