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SOF Sin Nature

JLB

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If we look at the context of Gen 8:20-21, it gives God's reasons for sending the worldwide flood that destroyed all but 8 people in Noah's time.

Two examples were given:

(1) Seth was a righteous man (Gen 4:26) but his later lineage (e.g. Gen 6:5) did not follow Seth's godly heritage.
(2) The Cainites perpetrated violence, starting with Cain (Gen 4).

Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.
Genesis 8:20-21


Could you expound on Genesis 8:20-21, and share where you see all the reasons God destroyed everyone on earth in the flood?




JLB
 

JLB

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This is one of the early examples of how total depravity or inherited sin manifests itself - people continually doing evil - and that evil is seated in the heart, based on intentions.

Here is where we see the


Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Genesis 6:1-8



The great wickedness and evil intent of the thoughts of the heart seemed to begin with the giants.

Before they showed up, we didn’t see this language being used.





JLB
 

wondering

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wondering,

It would be good (for me) if you would provide biblical evidence for these statements, especially in light of the sinful condition of all of us before salvation that I've listed in post #57.

I find it difficult to make 'dead in your transgressions and sin' = effects of sin.

Do children sin? At one time we had 3 children who were aged 2 years (in different years). I can assure you that each one knew how to be selfish and scream when he or she didn't get his/her own way.

I'd tell one to not pull the cricket bat from the cupboard yet. What did he do? Went ahead and did it in spite of my instructions. He sure knew how to sin at age 2-3. I have his little cricket bat in one of my cupboards to remind me of that darling boy, Jeff, who knew how to sin and break the laws of our household.

Oz
Children misbehave...we see it as sin.
But how can they be sinning if they don't even know what sin is? I do agree that it's the sin nature in them that makes them do these "mean" things they do. We do tend towards evil..it can even be called concupiscence...some call it the flesh...it has different names but they all speak of the same "sin" as JLB called it, in us.

Here is an explanation I like for the sin nature, the flesh, or concupiscence:

Theologians have long attempted to explain humanity’s tendency to veer off course: one big sin (that of our first parents in the garden) and it’s almost impossible to go straight without constant correction. Keeping in mind that the New Testament word for sin is hamartia, a Greek word that literally means to miss the mark or to veer off course, we might say that after original sin it’s nearly impossible to stay on the “straight and narrow.”

Theologians call this tendency to sin “concupiscence.” The word concupiscence is defined as a strong desire, a tendency or attraction, usually arising from lust or sensual desires. It is, morally speaking, the tendency to go off course.

Concupiscence is understood as an effect of original sin that remains after baptism. The waters of baptism cleanse us of original sin itself, but concupiscence remains as a lingering effect. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that “certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death … as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence” (No. 1264, emphasis in original).

source: https://www.osv.com/Magazines/TheCa...18/ArticleID/10340/What-Is-Concupiscence.aspx

Galatians 5:17
Galatians 5:19-21
Ephesians 2:3
Romans 6:6
Romans 7:19


Psalm 32:1-2 tells us that God does not impute iniquity to us.
1How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered!
2How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit!



We are all guilty before God but there is original sin, which I spoke of above, and there is sin that we personally are responsible for. This is the sin for which offerings were given in the O.T. (Leviticus 16:20-22)

1 Peter 2:25 states that Jesus bore OUR SINS in His body on the cross. These would be the sins that we personally commit...sins of commission or omission.

Men are born dead spiritually and need to be born from above. This is due to original sin.

They have no personal sin, however, until the age of reason.
Which is why Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is made of those such as the children in Mathew 19:14 --- because we are not responsible for our personal sins until we are at an age to be able to understand God and His commandments.
 
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wondering

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wondering,

It's good to see you joining the discussion.

I'd like to see your biblical basis for those with 'inherited sin' needing to be baptised as soon as possible so they can enter heaven.

Matt 19:14 (NLT) reads: 'But Jesus said, "Let the children come to me. Don't stop them! For the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to those who are like these children"'.

I don't read any statement that says 'Let the children come to me.... The kingdom of heaven belongs to those who are like these children and have been baptized before going to heaven'.

I support the teaching on all human beings born with 'inherited sin'. Paul explained it in Rom 5:12 (NIV): 'Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned'.

In context of this verse, Paul taught about actual sins committed every day and explained this teaching in the whole paragraph of 5:12-21). He compares Adam and Christ. He states that all people sinned through the sin of one man, Adam.

In Rom 5:13-14, Paul's teaching is that from the time of Adam to Moses people didn't have God's written laws, so their sins were not regarded as breaking any law. They were people and 'death ruled even over those who did not sin as Adam did' (Rom 5:14 NIV).

How come? Even though there was no written law for these people to break, they died, nevertheless. Why? The people were guilty on the basis of Adam's sin - inherited sin.

This teaching is further emphasised in Rom 5:18-19 (NIV):

So one man’s sin brought guilt to all people. In the same way, one right act made people right with God. That one right act gave life to all people. Many people were made sinners because one man did not obey. But one man did obey. That is why many people will be made right with God.​

Here Paul states precisely that because 'one man (Adam) did not obey ... many people were made sinners'. 'Were made' is aorist tense of completed action. Even though you and I didn't exist at the time of the Fall, God regarded all future people as guilty - as well as Adam.

In theological circles a technical term is often used that as a result of Adam's sin, sin was imputed to the entire human race. i.e. Impute = to think of it (sin) as belonging to someone and to cause it to belong to that person. Here the imputation is to the whole human race.

Based on Romans 5, I conclude that Adam sinned and Adam's guilt belongs to all of humanity.

Some people regard the teaching on 'inherited sin' as 'original sin'. I prefer inherited sin as we all inherited it from Adam. There is no way to avoid it.

Oz
We each didn't eat the fruit.
Did we inherit Adam's sinful act...
or the results of it?

Children don't need to be baptized exactly because they have the effects of A's sin, but they have no actual sins of their own.

You don't see a difference between original sin and actual sin committed by a person?
 

WIP

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We each didn't eat the fruit.
Did we inherit Adam's sinful act...
or the results of it?

Children don't need to be baptized exactly because they have the effects of A's sin, but they have no actual sins of their own.

You don't see a difference between original sin and actual sin committed by a person?
Maybe I'm misinterpreting but didn't God impress His law upon all our hearts or is that yet to come?
 

wondering

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Maybe I'm misinterpreting but didn't God impress His law upon all our hearts or is that yet to come?
God's impressing His law upon all our hearts is yet to come.
First we need to get Exodus out of the way.
There was no Law until Moses.....but the Natural Law still existed.
The law that all civil mankind knows about and which was made by God anyway.
This would be Romans 1:19-20 and Romans 2:14-15

Then God gave the Law to Moses. Not only the 10 commandments but also the Civil Law and the Ceremonial Law that could be found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and also in Exodus. It's not my belief, nor that of many biblical scholars, that all of the laws were from God --- some seem to be man-made. For example, Moses allowed certificates of divorce...but Jesus said this was not what God originally wanted.
Mathew 5:21-22

In many places in the O.T. God said He did not want sacrifice but the heart of man. This is when God said He would put His law into our hearts --- thus allowing us to WANT to follow His laws.
Ezekiel 36:26
Jeremiah 31:32 (the New Covenant)
Hosea 6:6

In Romans God tell us to present OURSELVES a living sacrifice.
Romans 12:1
 

JohnDB

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I would think that the story of Ham and Noah would suffice.

From it we see the curse that Noah pronounces upon Canaan. And if you read it carefully you discover something unique.
Ham was the one responsible for cursing his own son.

IOW Ham's attitudes and actions were going to affect his son in such a fashion as to destroy his own legacy.
IE: Ham was going to teach his son to be sinful. Where Ham had hopes his son was going to be the "Seed of the Woman" who was going to allow them to access the "Garden in Eden" once again...it was now dashed with Ham's own sinful natures and desires.

Paradise was lost once again.

But the important thing is that our sinful nature is inherited from our parents...not in a metaphysical sense but in a very real and serious fashion.
 

OzSpen

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We each didn't eat the fruit.
Did we inherit Adam's sinful act...
or the results of it?

Children don't need to be baptized exactly because they have the effects of A's sin, but they have no actual sins of their own.

You don't see a difference between original sin and actual sin committed by a person?
wondering,

What did all human beings inherit from Adam's sin?
What do you think of the content of this Roman Catholic article, How can original sin be inherited?

Romans 5:12-21 (NIV) states clearly (in my understanding) that when Adam committed the first sin, Adam's sin was considered by God to be our sin. He was our representative.

Yes, all of us commit different kinds of sins, even babies/children. These sins are part of reality in our lives and they condemn us before God. In Rom 5:12-21, Paul is so concerned about this that he deals with the deepest problem behind our sins and guilt.

Adam's sin became our sin and his judgment is our judgment - the consequence of his sin was that he died spiritually. He eventually died physically, but both Eve and he did not drop dead immediately.

The magnificence of God's provision is that Adam's sin is imputed to all human beings and born again people have had their sins imputed to Christ.

Children misbehave...we see it as sin.
But how can they be sinning if they don't even know what sin is? I do agree that it's the sin nature in them that makes them do these "mean" things they do. We do tend towards evil..it can even be called concupiscence...some call it the flesh...it has different names but they all speak of the same "sin" as JLB called it, in us.
.
Lev 5:17 (NIV) speaks to people who sin, not knowing it is sin: 'If anyone sins and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands, even though they do not know it, they are guilty and will be held responsible'.

They are responsible for breaking God's commandments, even though they didn't know it. Verse 18 indicates v. 17 refers to adults.

You stated:

Psalm 32:1-2 tells us that God does not impute iniquity to us.
1How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered!
2How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit!
In Psalm 32, David tells of the unbearable agony he experienced because of his sin with Bathsheba until the prophet Nathan condemned his crimes in YHWH's name (see 2 Sam 12:7-10).

So, this verse in Ps 32:2 that you have highlighted, in my understanding, does not deal with the Lord not imputing iniquity to all of humanity. It was referring particularly to David and his sin. David experienced the mercy and forgiveness of God that restored David to fellowship with the Lord again.

So 'impute iniquity' would mean to charge David with condemnation because of his terrible sin. To 'not impute iniquity' means the opposite - to pardon, forgive, cast his sins away, cleanse them so that he will not be condemned. This is forgiveness with a capital F.

However,

A "double imputation" occurred at the cross of Christ. Our sin was imputed to Christ, and His righteousness was imputed to us. To believe that with one's heart is to be the blessed soul to whom God does not impute sin. In other words, Christ became sin for us that in Him we might become God's righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus, the just, died for us, the just, that He might bring us to God (1 Peter 3:18) [source].​

You stated:

They [children] have no personal sin, however, until the age of reason.
Which is why Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is made of those such as the children in Mathew 19:14 --- because we are not responsible for our personal sins until we are at an age to be able to understand God and His commandments
That sounds like a logical, compassionate statement of human reasoning, but I can't find biblical support for it. Matt 19:14 gives no indication that children are not responsible for their sins, but in the grace of God they are covered by his mercy for salvation. No details are given about an age of accountability.

Blessings from Brisbane on Friday evening at 8.27pm,

Oz
 

Truthfrees

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WIP,

I'm having a hard time accepting that sin nature = tendency to sin, based on these verses:

  1. 'As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins' (Eph 2:1 NIV);
  2. 'But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved ' (Eph 2:5 NIV).
  3. 'You were spiritually dead because of your sins and because you were not free from the power of your sinful self. But God gave you new life together with Christ. He forgave all our sins' (Col 2:13 ERV).
Oz
the hebrew says evil inclination - which could translate to inclination to sin and or spiritually dead - they seem to be facets of the same issue imo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yetzer_hara

In Judaism, yetzer hara (Hebrew: יֵצֶר הַרַע‎) refers to the congenital inclination to do evil, by violating the will of God. The term is drawn from the phrase "the imagination of the heart of man [is] evil" (Hebrew: יֵצֶר לֵב הָאָדָם רַע, yetzer lev-ha-adam ra), which occurs twice in the Hebrew Bible, at Book of Genesis : Genesis 6:5 and Genesis 8:21.

The evil inclination in man, or what is often called man's natural inclination, has been the subject of debate since time immemorial.
 

JohnDB

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TF,

The verses I quoted from Ephesians and Colossians are in Greek, not Hebrew.

Oz
But wouldn't the rendering of the Hebrew into Greek (especially how the Septuagint did it) be rather relevant? Especially if the writing Apostles clearly used many allusions to the translation that they knew in Hebrew?
 

OzSpen

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But wouldn't the rendering of the Hebrew into Greek (especially how the Septuagint did it) be rather relevant? Especially if the writing Apostles clearly used many allusions to the translation that they knew in Hebrew?
John,

The Septuagint (LXX) rendered the OT Hebrew/Aramaic into Greek and not vice versa.

Which LXX verses would you use to support 'dead in trespasses and sin' of the NT, as expressed in these verses?
  1. 'As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins' (Eph 2:1 NIV);
  2. 'But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved ' (Eph 2:5 NIV).
  3. 'You were spiritually dead because of your sins and because you were not free from the power of your sinful self. But God gave you new life together with Christ. He forgave all our sins' (Col 2:13 ERV).
Oz
 

Truthfrees

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John,

The Septuagint (LXX) rendered the OT Hebrew/Aramaic into Greek and not vice versa.

Which LXX verses would you use to support 'dead in trespasses and sin' of the NT, as expressed in these verses?
  1. 'As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins' (Eph 2:1 NIV);
  2. 'But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved ' (Eph 2:5 NIV).
  3. 'You were spiritually dead because of your sins and because you were not free from the power of your sinful self. But God gave you new life together with Christ. He forgave all our sins' (Col 2:13 ERV).
Oz
if you think of the NT as a totally separate and different message from the OT then i can see your point

but if you think of:
1. the entire bible as ONE message from God - AND
2. that jews who spoke hebrew were the ones who wrote the NT- probably also in hebrew originally
3. when paul said scripture was to be used for doctrine the only scripture available at that time was the OT
4. almost everything Jesus and the NT writers said are quotes of the OT - the only scripture of their time

then the hebrew "evil inclination" would have huge and possibly precursive/precursory meaning that should be used in understanding the NT

just putting this out there for thought and deeper research
 

OzSpen

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if you think of the NT as a totally separate and different message from the OT then i can see your point

but if you think of:
1. the entire bible as ONE message from God - AND
2. that jews who spoke hebrew were the ones who wrote the NT- probably also in hebrew originally
3. when paul said scripture was to be used for doctrine the only scripture available at that time was the OT
4. almost everything Jesus and the NT writers said are quotes of the OT - the only scripture of their time
TF,

If the Bible is one message from God, then we should be still committing capital punishment against adultery and homosexuality.

We should allow polygamy, etc.

The facts are that the entire Bible is one of progressive revelation from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, with the division coming thanks to Jesus death, burial and resurrection.

The Bible consists of OT + NT and is not one testament.

Oz
 

Truthfrees

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TF,

If the Bible is one message from God, then we should be still committing capital punishment against adultery and homosexuality.

We should allow polygamy, etc.

The facts are that the entire Bible is one of progressive revelation from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, with the division coming thanks to Jesus death, burial and resurrection.

The Bible consists of OT + NT and is not one testament.

Oz
that is one way to see it for sure

God's character of mercy truth justice righteousness via the power of God's Holy Spirit working in/through the heart of man has been consistent from Genesis to Revelation though

man's understanding of God and progressive growth into doing things God's way continues today - the real issue being the heart of man

brutality - the death penalty - polygamy - divorce - adultery - murder - hate - etc - still exist today in even the "civilized" world - all proceeding out of the heart of man - nothing new under the sun

the OT records the Spirit of God living in pre-Christ believers - the joy of being a believer now is that the knowledge of God with us and in us via Christ and the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit of God is largely available

here is an awesome source of the NT words being quotes of the OT

http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm

this may help us to see the unchanging nature of God's message from Genesis til now

here also is a categorized list of the 613 commandments - the author means to sway us away from keeping them - but he did such a good job of showing the laws for business - judges - farming - etc - that he actually helps us see that doing things God's way with EVERYTHING is still a good idea today - creating a love for the modern relevance of OT as well as the NT as a complete contextual whole rather than 2 separate parts

https://www.gospeloutreach.net/613laws.html
 
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JohnDB

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that is one way to see it for sure

God's character of mercy truth justice righteousness has been consistent from Genesis to Revelation though

man's understanding of God and progressive growth into doing things God's way continues today - the real issue being the heart of man

brutality - the death penalty - polygamy - divorce - adultery - murder - hate - etc - still exist today in even the "civilized" world - all proceeding out of the heart of man - nothing new under the sun

the OT records the Spirit of God living in pre-Christ believers - the joy of being a believer now is that the knowledge of God with us and in us via Christ is largely available

here is an awesome source of the NT words being quotes of the OT

http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm

this may help us to see the unchanging nature of God's message from Genesis til now
God hasn't changed. However people have changed.
And the manner of God's word in substance has reflected that. No, polygamy is not acceptable and Capitol crimes are a function of our respective Governments...not ourselves. (Genesis 50) The Scepter now fully belongs to Christ and those He designates.
That happened in the first year AD. Same year as Jesus' birth. (Josephus)
God sets up leaders and deposes them. (Daniel) And we are to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's...because Jesus said so...
Currently I'm not aware of a Christian nation that allows polygamy...nor would I engage in the practice. Those guys are always hen-pecked to death. Pleasing one wife is the limit of my ability...and sometimes beyond my limits.
 

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I would think that the story of Ham and Noah would suffice.

From it we see the curse that Noah pronounces upon Canaan. And if you read it carefully you discover something unique.
Ham was the one responsible for cursing his own son.

IOW Ham's attitudes and actions were going to affect his son in such a fashion as to destroy his own legacy.
IE: Ham was going to teach his son to be sinful. Where Ham had hopes his son was going to be the "Seed of the Woman" who was going to allow them to access the "Garden in Eden" once again...it was now dashed with Ham's own sinful natures and desires.

Paradise was lost once again.

But the important thing is that our sinful nature is inherited from our parents...not in a metaphysical sense but in a very real and serious fashion.
amen - a wonderful explanation of why the bible says bad company corrupts good morals - 1 Corinthians 15:33
 

Truthfrees

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God hasn't changed. However people have changed.
And the manner of God's word in substance has reflected that. No, polygamy is not acceptable and Capitol crimes are a function of our respective Governments...not ourselves. (Genesis 50) The Scepter now fully belongs to Christ and those He designates.
That happened in the first year AD. Same year as Jesus' birth. (Josephus)
God sets up leaders and deposes them. (Daniel) And we are to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's...because Jesus said so...
Currently I'm not aware of a Christian nation that allows polygamy...nor would I engage in the practice. Those guys are always hen-pecked to death. Pleasing one wife is the limit of my ability...and sometimes beyond my limits.
lol - probably why God's 1st instruction and act was to give 1 woman to adam - the 1st mention principle helps us to see what you are saying - great post
 

JLB

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If the Bible is one message from God, then we should be still committing capital punishment against adultery and homosexuality.

The law of Moses was added, then removed from The Covenant.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19



The law of Moses, and the ordinances that were added, does not constitute the entirety of the Old Testament.


The Covenant the Lord made with Abraham before He became flesh, has become the New Covenant.




JLB
 

Truthfrees

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The law of Moses was added, then removed from The Covenant.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

The law of Moses, and the ordinances that were added, does not constitute the entirety of the Old Testament.

The Covenant the Lord made with Abraham before He became flesh, has become the New Covenant.

JLB
i would say the law was MOVED (written on the hearts and minds) rather than saying the law was removed

Hebrews 8:10-11 - Jeremiah 31:33-34
 
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