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JLB

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i would say the law was MOVED (written on the hearts and minds) rather than saying the law was removed

Hebrews 8:10-11 - Jeremiah 31:33-34

Well we know God’s law is written on our hearts and minds, according to the promise of the New Covenant.


However, the law of Moses, which contained ordinances for law breakers, ceremonial washings, feast day requirements, animal sacrifices as well as the death penalty for Sabbath violators, are certainly not written on our heart and mind.


Removed is a mild word.

Probably we should say violently abolished,would be a better statement.


  • having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:14-16


The law of Moses, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, was the enmity between Jew and Gentile that divided the Jew from the Gentile.



JLB
 

OzSpen

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that is one way to see it for sure

God's character of mercy truth justice righteousness via the power of God's Holy Spirit working in/through the heart of man has been consistent from Genesis to Revelation though

man's understanding of God and progressive growth into doing things God's way continues today - the real issue being the heart of man

brutality - the death penalty - polygamy - divorce - adultery - murder - hate - etc - still exist today in even the "civilized" world - all proceeding out of the heart of man - nothing new under the sun
TF,

Based on what you stated in #73, if we see 'the entire bible as ONE message from God', these punishments need to continue:
  • Death penalty for not keeping the Sabbath (Ex 31:14 NIV)
  • Death penalty for blasphemy (Lev 24:10-16 NIV);
  • Death penalty for worshipping other gods than YHWH (Deut 17:2-7 NIV);
  • Death penalty for homosexuality (Lev 20:13 NIV);
  • Death penalty for adultery (Lev 20:10 NIV);
  • Death penalty for spiritists (occult practitioners) [Lev 20:27 NIV];
  • Death penalty for anyone who curses mother or father (Lev 20:9 NIV);
  • Death penalty for bestiality (sex with animals) [Lev 20:15-16 NIV];
    Etc.
Do you believe this ONE message from God continues with the death penalty for these sins today? If not, why not?

Oz
 
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Truthfrees

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TF,

Based on what you stated in #74, if we see 'the entire bible as ONE message from God', these punishments need to continue:
  • Death penalty for not keeping the Sabbath (Ex 31:14 NIV)
  • Death penalty for blasphemy (Lev 24:10-16 NIV);
  • Death penalty for worshipping other gods than YHWH (Deut 17:2-7 NIV);
  • Death penalty for homosexuality (Lev 20:13 NIV);
  • Death penalty for adultery (Lev 20:10 NIV);
  • Death penalty for spiritists (occult practitioners) [Lev 20:27 NIV];
  • Death penalty for anyone who curses mother or father (Lev 20:9 NIV);
  • Death penalty for bestiality (sex with animals) [Lev 20:15-16 NIV];
    Etc.
Do you believe this ONE message from God continues with the death penalty for these sins today? If not, why not?

Oz
good point - great scriptures

do the sins you listed continue with the physical death penalty today? - if the law of the land incorporates them they do - otherwise not

do those sins continue with SOME type of spirit/soul/body death penalty today? - i think they do - the soul that sins dies - James 5:20 - Ezekiel 18:20 - 1 Corinthians 5:5

the shed blood of Jesus covers these sins so that we do not lose our connection with God the Giver of Life when we sin - but they remain sins - they are still not acceptable behaviors and they do create a type of death in those who participate in them - some kill their conscience or fracture their mind when they do these things - some ruin their finances / health / relationships when they do these things - so imo death is still associated with these kinds of sins even in the NT

the bottom line is if God said something is wrong and death is the penalty we best think about it and take God seriously - if JESUS had to DIE to pay for these sins we best seek God's help to avoid these sins

PS. since the day God led me to become Torah observant i realized God's message is TO me for ME to live right - not to point out the sins of others - God's message to me is the RED words found in the OT and the NT
 
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OzSpen

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good point - great scriptures

do the sins you listed continue with the physical death penalty today? - if the law of the land incorporates them they do - otherwise not

do those sins continue with SOME type of spirit/soul/body death penalty today? - i think they do - the soul that sins dies - James 5:20 - Ezekiel 18:20 - 1 Corinthians 5:5

the shed blood of Jesus covers these sins so that we do not lose our connection with God the Giver of Life when we sin - but they remain sins - they are still not acceptable behaviors and they do create a type of death in those who participate in them - some kill their conscience or fracture their mind when they do these things - some ruin their finances / health / relationships when they do these things - so imo death is still associated with these kinds of sins even in the NT

the bottom line is if God said something is wrong and death is the penalty we best think about it and take God seriously - if JESUS had to DIE to pay for these sins we best seek God's help to avoid these sins

PS. since the day God led me to become Torah observant i realized God's message is TO me for ME to live right - not to point out the sins of others - God's message to me is the RED words found in the OT and the NT
TF,

In the article, 'Does the Bible require the death penalty for homosexuality?' it rightly states:

Jesus fulfilled the Law (Matthew 5:17–18). Romans 10:4 says that Christ is the end of the Law. Ephesians 2:15 says that Jesus set aside the Law with its commands and regulations. Galatians 3:25 says, now that faith has come, we are no longer under the guardianship of the Law. The civil and ceremonial aspects of the Old Testament Law were for an earlier time. The Law’s purpose was completed with the perfect and complete sacrifice of Jesus Christ. So, no, the Bible does not command that homosexuals should be put to death in this day and age.​
So, under the New Covenant that Jesus instigated, all of the death penalties that I listed do not apply today because:

  • Jesus fulfilled the OT Law;
  • Christ's sacrifice on Golgotha means that the OT Law and its requirements have ended;
  • Jesus set aside the Law and its commandments and regulations;
  • Now faith has come and we no longer require the Law to guide and command us.
  • The capital punishment for the various offences are for an earlier time when the Israelites were under the Law;
  • The purpose of the law has been completed and fulfilled by Jesus.
  • So those who commit these sins should not experience the death penalty: breaking the Sabbath, blasphemy, worshipping other gods, homosexuality, adultery, being a witchcraft practitioner, cursing parents and bestiality.
Oz
 

Truthfrees

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Romans 10:4 says that Christ is the end of the Law.
the end of the law FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS - only for righteousness

this means the keeping the law to be righteous is not something anyone can do

there is no scripture that says the law is ended as a way to live a good and productive life

if a person wants to find out if i am interpreting this right try breaking as many of God's laws as possible and see how poor quality and chaotic your life will very quickly become
 

Truthfrees

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Jesus fulfilled the Law (Matthew 5:17–18).
thanks for the entire post - great post - i will answer each point with one post though to facilitate clarity

continue reading the entire passage the article quoted - notice how JESUS said not one smallest part of the law will pass away until heaven and earth pass away - since that has not happened yet we can safely assume that not even the SMALLEST part of the law has passed away YET

and since JESUS said this anything anyone else says must agree with Jesus - otherwise there is an issue of misinterpretation in play
 

Truthfrees

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Ephesians 2:15 says that Jesus set aside the Law with its commands and regulations.
notice it says Jesus abolished the ENMITY - making the two people groups one group

what is the enmity of the law? - law keepers like me and non-law keepers like you were divided by our lifestyles - separated as 2 people groups

now because of Christ and His work on the cross and His offer of righteousness by faith we are both part of one group - there is no longer a dividing wall between law keepers and non-law keepers

why? - because righteousness is by FAITH not by the law
 

Truthfrees

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Galatians 3:25 says, now that faith has come, we are no longer under the guardianship of the Law.
very true - we are no longer under the tutelage of the law - the Holy Spirit now leads and guides us into all truth - but one thing you will find is that the Holy Spirit will never lead anyone to break the law - breaking the law will be the work of the person's own flesh

because the law is still holy and God forbid we break the law - no actually we establish the law through faith - Romans 7:12-14 - Romans 3:31 - actually it is the flesh that made the law weak - because the law is perfect and holy - Romans 8:3
 
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Truthfrees

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The civil and ceremonial aspects of the Old Testament Law were for an earlier time.
this is true - but it still works for this time if used right - this means do we run around killing homosexuals? - NO - but we should take warning from the commandment today knowing that even still a type of death is connected to homosexuality - so let us spur one another on to a God-pleasing lifestyle and pray for each other to be set free from ALL sins INCLUDING those that God connected to death

i saw a study on capital punishment and murderers said that if capital law was still in effect in their state the would NOT have committed murder

so was God wise or foolish in making His laws?

if God makes something a death penalty issue we today ought to think long and hard about this and do whatever we can with God's ever present HELP to make sure we DON'T do the things God told us not to do
 

Truthfrees

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So, under the New Covenant that Jesus instigated, all of the death penalties that I listed do not apply today because:

  • Jesus fulfilled the OT Law;
  • Christ's sacrifice on Golgotha means that the OT Law and its requirements have ended;
  • Jesus set aside the Law and its commandments and regulations;
  • Now faith has come and we no longer require the Law to guide and command us.
  • The capital punishment for the various offences are for an earlier time when the Israelites were under the Law;
  • The purpose of the law has been completed and fulfilled by Jesus.
  • So those who commit these sins should not experience the death penalty: breaking the Sabbath, blasphemy, worshipping other gods, homosexuality, adultery, being a witchcraft practitioner, cursing parents and bestiality.
but the fact is there are still countries that have death penalties for these sins

and the other fact is that even if there is no death penalty in a country for these sins there is still a type of soul/spirit/body type of death connected to these sins - a type of spiritual law at work even still -

get into a relationship with someone who lives a lifestyle of sin/lawbreaking and you will see for yourself the various types of death that permeate their life - and if you are in a really close relationship with such a person various types of death will spill over into your life from THEIR sin - think of women who contract aids from their sinning husbands - death is still quite evident in the lives of those who break God's laws
 

chessman

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we are no longer under the tutelage of the law - the Holy Spirit now leads and guides us into all truth
Galatians 3:23-25 seems to be about imprisonment, detention and guardianship (tutelage):

But before faith came, we were detained under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith was revealed. So then, the law became our guardian until Christ, in order that we could be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
Galatians 3:23-25 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Galatians 3:23-25&version=LEB

Where does the idea of leading and guiding come from this passage?
 

Truthfrees

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Galatians 3:23-25 seems to be about imprisonment, detention and guardianship (tutelage):

But before faith came, we were detained under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith was revealed. So then, the law became our guardian until Christ, in order that we could be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
Galatians 3:23-25 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Galatians 3:23-25&version=LEB

Where does the idea of leading and guiding come from this passage?
it looks as that is how that translation chose to interpret this passage

as a torah observant believer i can testify that God's holy laws set me free from trouble

the most notable freedom came after keeping sabbath the ways God said to keep it

all kinds of little nagging problems that i had to keep praying about just dissolved away

many digestive and other health problems disappeared after keeping God's dietary laws

to those that feel God's laws are bondage and or obsolete i hold no ill feelings - i don't have a problem with anyone who does not keep God's laws because they genuinely believe they are passed away - i also don't have a problem with believers who struggle with sin -

i am just glad that God led me to sources that explained God's laws to me in a way that helped me see that it is to my advantage to be a law keeper with God's ever present help
 
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OzSpen

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the end of the law FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS - only for righteousness

this means the keeping the law to be righteous is not something anyone can do

there is no scripture that says the law is ended as a way to live a good and productive life

if a person wants to find out if i am interpreting this right try breaking as many of God's laws as possible and see how poor quality and chaotic your life will very quickly become
You are ignoring the Scriptures I presented at #84.
 
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Truthfrees

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You're are ignoring the Scriptures I presented at #84.
i answered them all in the several posts i made - if you read the 7 posts that answered your one post perhaps you might feel differently - each scripture you presented was answered with clarifying scripture in a separate post

we don't have to agree - we each can live a lifestyle that we believe pleases God

God's laws are precious and life-changing for me - i love living the torah observant lifestyle

if you feel differently that does not bother me - we all answer to God and God will bring us each to completion in Christ - salvation is God's work in us DESPITE our non-core interpretations of scripture - we each love God and scripture - that is all that counts - not our disagreements on scripture interpretation

but to be honest i felt as you did about the laws of God until i found out law keeping is an advantage/enhancement to my quality of life - now i feel differently than you

i used to call law keeping trampling the blood and grace of Jesus - until i saw it still works for creating a good lifestyle

i used to call prosperity love of money until i saw how Godly bible characters used God's blessings of prosperity to bless others

i have changed my doctrines many times as i saw a new understanding of it in the bible - reading the bible rather than the words of man keeps helping me change for the better - my lifestyle changes for the better -

although the words of man cause me to examine bible truths - so all discussion with those who disagree with me is life changing for me - sometimes i change my mind and sometimes i deepen my commitment to what i see in scripture
 
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chessman

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it looks as that is how that translation chose to interpret this passage
That’s because that’s what those words literally mean.

To guard (as in a military and/or prison guard)
https://biblehub.com/greek/5432.htm

https://biblehub.com/greek/4788.htm
Imprison, shut in


Is there any translation that you are aware of that uses leading and/or guiding in this passage (Gal 3:23-25)?

And just to be clear, I’m not necessarily disagreeing/arguing with your broader point about keeping the Law helping you digestively or otherwise. But what Paul was talking about there seems to have been a different subject.
 

Truthfrees

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That’s because that’s what those words literally mean.

To guard (as in a military and/or prison guard)
https://biblehub.com/greek/5432.htm

https://biblehub.com/greek/4788.htm
Imprison, shut in


Is there any translation that you are aware of that uses leading and/or guiding in this passage (Gal 3:23-25)?

And just to be clear, I’m not necessarily disagreeing/arguing with your broader point about keeping the Law helping you digestively or otherwise. But what Paul was talking about there seems to have been a different subject.
what paul is talking AGAINST is keeping God's laws for righteousness - being in right standing with God via law keeping - iow salvation by works/law keeping

guardians of children do not keep them in prison - they keep them safe

the laws of God keep us safe until Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit come to lead us into truth - which never contradicts God's laws - but always establishes God's laws -

now Christ and the Holy Spirit guard us and keep us safe just as God's laws did/do - God does not keep us in prison

prisons are places to put criminals - military put criminals in prison - they also put good people in safe situations - both criminals and good people are guarded - criminals loose their freedom - good people gain more freedom

God's laws may put criminals in prison - but it gives freedom and safety to law keepers like myself - the issue has never been with the law keepers - the issue has always been with the law breakers - and Jesus also took care of that - even law breakers have hope in Christ of living a better quality life if they follow Christ - because Christ and the Holy Spirit will lead people into a lifestyle that does NOT break God's holy laws

new king james version says it this way:

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
 
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chessman

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new king james version says it this way:

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Okay, thanks.

But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. ...
But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Galatians 3:22,4:4-5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Galatians 3:22,4:4-5&version=NKJV

God's laws may put criminals in prison - but it gives freedom and safety to law keepers like myself
God’s Law’s confined “all” (non-Law keepers, uncircumcised and Law keepers, circumcised) under sin. Now, only those who believe they have faith in Jesus Christ are redeemed from their confinement.

guardians of children do not keep them in prison
For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord’s freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ’s slave.
1 Corinthians 7:22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 7:22&version=NKJV
 

chessman

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the man and his children were shut up safely in their house at night - Luke 11:7 - so this word can mean imprison the criminals or keep your loved ones safely enclosed
I agree! My point was this also. It’s just that guardianship (in this case Guardianship) is a bit stronger word than to lead and/or guide. That’s all.
 

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Okay, thanks.

But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. ...But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.Galatians 3:22,4:4-5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Galatians 3:22,4:4-5&version=NKJV
this is what it says in context in the nkjv - it is talking against salvation by works/keeping the law - it is talking about being taught by a new tutor now - tutor is a good things - being guarded and kept safe is a good thing - the law is a good thing - Christ and the Holy Spirit are the new Tutors Who never lead us to break God's laws

Galatians 3:18-25 New King James Version (NKJV)
18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Purpose of the Law
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, [a]kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our [b]tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
 
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