[_ Old Earth _] Soft dinosaur and other prehistoric soft tissue

[brujaq]

Sorry folks I'm new here so I'm sure some of these topics have been discussed .
I remember dinosaurs being dated 200 million yrs extinct , then 65 million years . If you want to see dishonesty check out Bob Enyarts phone conversation with dinosaur expert Jack Horner about carbon dating soft dino tissue . I'm afraid our evolutionist community has quite a hot potato in their hands .. Again ..

 

[Milk-Drops]

Sorry folks I'm new here so I'm sure some of these topics have been discussed .
I remember dinosaurs being dated 200 million yrs extinct , then 65 million years . If you want to see dishonesty check out Bob Enyarts phone conversation with dinosaur expert Jack Horner about carbon dating soft dino tissue . I'm afraid our evolutionist community has quite a hot potato in their hands .. Again ..

Carbon dating isn't used to date dinosaur bones. Also depending on which species of dinosaur you are talking about, the extinction can range. For example there is as much time between the T Rex and the Stegosaurus as there is from the Stegosaurus to US.

 

[brujaq]

Carbon dating isn't used to date dinosaur bones. Also depending on which species of dinosaur you are talking about, the extinction can range. For example there is as much time between the T Rex and the Stegosaurus as there is from the Stegosaurus to US.

That's what Jack Horner said .. But I know you're not going to try to convince me that what I saw was not soft tissue , right ? And this is what I'm talking about , the dishonesty , the cover ups .. God bless you ..

 

[Milk-Drops]

That's what Jack Horner said .. But I know you're not going to try to convince me that what I saw was not soft tissue , right ? And this is what I'm talking about , the dishonesty , the cover ups .. God bless you ..

What exactly did you see? Do you have a link to your source?

 

[Barbarian]

The "tissue" creationists imagine to exist is nothing of the kind. So far, no one's even found intact cells, much less tissue. They have found some organic molecules like heme and collagen. And there's an interesting result to that:

You see, the heme was isolated and injected into rabbits. They formed antibodies to the heme. And these antibodies reacted most strongly against the heme of birds, rather than of modern reptiles.

Which is precisely what evolutionary theory predicted. These bits of organic material verify the conclusion based on other evidence, that birds evolved from dinosaurs.

Cool.

 

[brujaq]

this is hilarious ''obviously your group is creationist and uh the spin you could get off this''

 

[Barbarian]

Understandable. Carbon dating is good out to about 50,000 years. Wouldn't be able to date anything as old as dinosaur bone.

And Schweitzer herself did not claim the organic material she found was tissue. That was added by someone else.

 

[brujaq]

Understandable. Carbon dating is good out to about 50,000 years. Wouldn't be able to date anything as old as dinosaur bone.

And Schweitzer herself did not claim the organic material she found was tissue. That was added by someone else.

You do realize it has been carbon dated since . Soft tissue is being found all over the place. Not that carbon dating is accurate but it can detect carbon . Right ? .. Like I said earlier it is a hot potato for evolutionists , do you feel the heat Barb ?

 

[Barbarian]

You do realize it has been carbon dated since .

Wouldn't work. It can't measure anything that old.

Soft tissue is being found all over the place.

Just not in fossils. Even Schweitzer said that she didn't find tissue in those fossils. It's not even demonstrated that intact cells were found.

Not that carbon dating is accurate but it can detect carbon . Right ? .. Like I said earlier it is a hot potato for evolutionists

It's been known for a long time, that some organic molecules can survive for millions of years, but so far, no such thing as tissue in fossils.

do you feel the heat Barb ?

Nope. Go ahead and see if you can find any such tissue in the literature. Not there. As I said, even Schweitzer didn't make the claim. And the good part is, the molecules actually found in the T-rex fossil confirmed the theory that shows birds evolved from dinosaurs.

 

[brujaq]

You need to update or either lay that hot tater down

 

[Cygnus]

Understandable. Carbon dating is good out to about 50,000 years. Wouldn't be able to date anything as old as dinosaur bone.

And Schweitzer herself did not claim the organic material she found was tissue. That was added by someone else.

Stretchy tissue has been discovered in a triceratops horn.
If you want to see it go to the 2:00 min mark of this video.

 

[Barbarian]

Stretchy tissue has been discovered in a triceratops horn.
If you want to see it go to the 2:00 min mark of this video.

There's organic material, but that's old news. So far, they haven't even shown any intact cells, much less tissue. The material in the fossil, while not tissue, is most likely organic collagen. That's been found in fossils before, most notably by Mary Schweitzer in in T. rex bone.

Interestingly, this "tissue" ("tissue" would actually be arrays of cells not organic molecules) turned out to be closest to that of birds, not modern reptiles, confirming the prediction that birds evolved from dinosaurs.

 

[Cygnus]

There's organic material, but that's old news. So far, they haven't even shown any intact cells, much less tissue. The material in the fossil, while not tissue, is most likely organic collagen. That's been found in fossils before, most notably by Mary Schweitzer in in T. rex bone.

Interestingly, this "tissue" ("tissue" would actually be arrays of cells not organic molecules) turned out to be closest to that of birds, not modern reptiles, confirming the prediction that birds evolved from dinosaurs.

Problem for OOE's...it's there. It shouldn't be there if it's that old.

 

[Barbarian]

Problem for OOE's...it's there. It shouldn't be there if it's that old.

Nope. It's been known for a very long time that organic molecules can persist for many millions of years in the right environment. Find real tissues or even intact cells, and you've got an argument.

Not until.

 

[Cygnus]

Nope. It's been known for a very long time that organic molecules can persist for many millions of years in the right environment. Find real tissues or even intact cells, and you've got an argument.

Not until.

What about the soft tissue not found in the riight environment? The tricertops tissue would be an example.

 

[Barbarian]

What about the soft tissue not found in the riight environment?

So far, just some organic matter, not tissue. No one's even found intact cells, much less tissue. We know about collagen and heme from dinosaurs, but no tissue.

The tricertops tissue would be an example.

No tissue, but some organic matter. And some organic molecules can last even longer than that:

Spectroscopic Studies on Organic Matter from Triassic Reptile Bones, Upper Silesia, Poland

• Dawid Surmik ,
  Andrzej Boczarowski, Katarzyna Balin, Mateusz Dulski, Jacek Szade, Barbara Kremer,
  
  • Roman Pawlicki

• Published: March 15, 2016https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0151143

Fossil biomolecules from an endogenous source were previously identified in Cretaceous to Pleistocene fossilized bones, the evidence coming from molecular analyses. These findings, however, were called into question and an alternative hypothesis of the invasion of the bone by bacterial biofilm was proposed. Herewith we report a new finding of morphologically preserved blood-vessel-like structures enclosing organic molecules preserved in iron-oxide-mineralized vessel walls from the cortical region of nothosaurid and tanystropheid (aquatic and terrestrial diapsid reptiles) bones. These findings are from the Early/Middle Triassic boundary (Upper Roetian/Lowermost Muschelkalk) strata of Upper Silesia, Poland. Multiple spectroscopic analyses (FTIR, ToF-SIMS, and XPS) of the extracted "blood vessels" showed the presence of organic compounds, including fragments of various amino acids such as hydroxyproline and hydroxylysine as well as amides, that may suggest the presence of collagen protein residues. Because these amino acids are absent from most proteins other than collagen, we infer that the proteinaceous molecules may originate from endogenous collagen. The preservation of molecular signals of proteins within the "blood vessels" was most likely made possible through the process of early diagenetic iron oxide mineralization. This discovery provides the oldest evidence of in situ preservation of complex organic molecules in vertebrate remains in a marine environment.

 

[Cygnus]

iron oxide

The iron oxide theory was based upon a three year experiment....then extrapolated out past 65+ MY's.

3 years....determined it was possible? Talk about speculation based upon OEE bias rather than reality.

 

[Barbarian]

The iron oxide theory was based upon a three year experiment....then extrapolated out past 65+ MY's.

If it works in just three years, no rational person would believe that it couldn't happen in many millions of years.

3 years....determined it was possible?

Even if it were to happen millions of times slower than the study showed that it does, it would still nicely account for the organic material found. And as you learned, the heme recovered from a dinosaur fossil confirmed the prediction that birds evolved from dinosaurs. Would you like me to show you again?

 

[brujaq]

No rational person would believe iron would preserve soft tissues, It took three years to come up with that ridiculous conclusion .. Where I come from we call that BS ''blowing smoke'' among other things

 

[Cygnus]

If it works in just three years, no rational person would believe that it couldn't happen in many millions of years.



Even if it were to happen millions of times slower than the study showed that it does, it would still nicely account for the organic material found. And as you learned, the heme recovered from a dinosaur fossil confirmed the prediction that birds evolved from dinosaurs. Would you like me to show you again?

Once again we see the evo world presenting an assumption based upon 3 years as a new scientific fact.
Secondly, no, even if it happened a million times slower. The material simply wouldn't last.
The best answer science has....as you have learned, the dinosaurs were buried several thousand years ago.