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'Speaking in Tongues', true vs false.

OzSpen

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Gift of tongue speaking does not exist today, just as baptism with the Holy Spirit does not exist today.
No one today speaks in tongues as they did in the Bible....

Ernest,

That's your assertion/opinion. Why should I believe it? I need some exegesis from you to demonstrate the truth of your statements.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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If I could suddenly speak in Chinese then it must be interpreted or translated to where the hearer can understand, else I am speaking to the air, blowing a trumpet that is not understood, be as a barbarian to those that do not understand what I am saying therefore no edification takes place. Paul therefore is clearly talking about know earthly languages in 1 Cor 14. Tongue speaking in the Bible was not nonsensical, nonunderstandable jibberish.

Ernest,

You are contradicting the very verses you quote from 1 Cor 14:13-14,

13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.​

You want tongues to mean 'earthly languages' but Paul states clearly that when he speaks in tongues, 'my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful'.

Oh that you would see these 2 verses refuting your perspective.:horse

Oz
 

for_his_glory

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Gift of tongue speaking does not exist today, just as baptism with the Holy Spirit does not exist today.
No one today speaks in tongues as they did in the Bible. Tongue speaking in the Bible was NOT 'ecstatic utterances' but was speaking in known earthly languages that the speaker formerly did not know in order to take the gospel to the world, take the gospel to people that spoke a different language then the preacher of the gospel.

The gift of tongues, and for that matter, none of the Spiritual gifts have ceased as the Holy Spirit that indwells us has not been taken up to the realm of God as of yet.

Tongues is a Spiritual gift like all the gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 given by God through His Holy Spirit for His Church, (body of Christ), to lift up and edify, or to discipline the Church, 1 Corinthians 14:1-5. This began on the day of Pentecost with those 120 that were gathered together in the upper room that day as they were baptized in the Holy Spirit just as we are today and all those after us until the return of Christ. On the day of Pentecost there were around 3000 that day added to the Church, Acts 2:38-47. None of these gifts have ever ceased.

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire

Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:


Tongues are a manifestation of the Holy Spirit and evidence that we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit as we exercise this gift. Tongues are also for our personal prayer language for things we do not know how to pray for as the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us. It may sound like babble to us at first, but perfected in us as we exercise this gift given by God to perfect us.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Speaking in tongues does not affect salvation, but it is a part of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Not all have this gift for many have never been taught that there even is such a gift. I not only love to pray in tongues as it helps my mind not to wonder when I'm praying, but also I love singing in tongues when I am by myself. No one could explain that kind of closeness to God.
 

tdidymas

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That is your opinion and is unbiblical.
Your opinion on my opinion - it gets nowhere. The Bible shows that the tongues the apostles spoke in the 1st century were known human languages. This is how Peter could say in Acts 47 that those people received the Holy Spirit "as they did at first." This is how Paul speaks in 1 Cor. 14 about how tongues convey a message.

But modern day glossolalia (which is really a misnomer) is pure gibberish, as is proved by every youtube link that exhibits it. Expert linguists explain how it can't possibly convey an intelligent message. It is a pretense of what happened in the 1st century, no matter how strong the belief in it. Strong belief doesn't make something true.
TD:)
 

tdidymas

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Amen.


The Lord said in the last days would pour out His Spirit on all flesh.


‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
Acts 2:17-18


Does anyone in your Church prophesy, see visions, dream dreams from the Lord?


JLB
Yes, but notice the conspicuous lack of speaking in tongues in this passage.
TD:)
 

JLB

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Your opinion on my opinion - it gets nowhere. The Bible shows that the tongues the apostles spoke in the 1st century were known human languages. This is how Peter could say in Acts 47 that those people received the Holy Spirit "as they did at first." This is how Paul speaks in 1 Cor. 14 about how tongues convey a message.

But modern day glossolalia (which is really a misnomer) is pure gibberish, as is proved by every youtube link that exhibits it. Expert linguists explain how it can't possibly convey an intelligent message. It is a pretense of what happened in the 1st century, no matter how strong the belief in it. Strong belief doesn't make something true.
TD:)

I never said tongues was not a language.

It is the tongue of men and angels.


Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
1 Corinthians 13:1



JLB
 

tdidymas

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When a person calls the Holy Spirit who is moving upon someone with the gifts of the Spirit, the Devil, then they are speaking against the Holy Spirit.

This is called blasphemy of the Spirit.


JLB
Yet, I said no such thing, which means your prejudice is speaking, because your language implies that I did that. You can't tell me that you have had no thought that I was doing such a thing, because I read your conversation quite well. And so, your exaggeration slips into bearing false witness.

But beside that, when people fall down in pretense and claim they were slain in the Spirit, why do you not think they are blaspheming, because they are attributing something fleshly to the Holy Spirit? Would you agree that is blasphemy? Would you agree that Peter Popoff and W.V. Grant were blaspheming the Holy Spirit when they claimed that the con game they were playing was the power and gifting of the Holy Spirit?

My point is that to cry "blasphemy" doesn't go anywhere but an escalation of hostility.
TD:)
 

JLB

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Yes, but notice the conspicuous lack of speaking in tongues in this passage.
TD:)

LOL....

It has everything thing to do with speaking in tongues and receiving the Holy Spirit.

Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”
Others mocking said, “They are full of new wine.”
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
Acts 2:11-18
 

tdidymas

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If you call the Holy Spirit, the Devil, then you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit.


Very simple.



JLB
Ok, I get from your conversation that "fleshly phenomenon" = "the devil."
IMO you err on this point.
TD:)
 

JLB

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Yet, I said no such thing, which means your prejudice is speaking, because your language implies that I did that. You can't tell me that you have had no thought that I was doing such a thing, because I read your conversation quite well. And so, your exaggeration slips into bearing false witness.

But beside that, when people fall down in pretense and claim they were slain in the Spirit, why do you not think they are blaspheming, because they are attributing something fleshly to the Holy Spirit? Would you agree that is blasphemy? Would you agree that Peter Popoff and W.V. Grant were blaspheming the Holy Spirit when they claimed that the con game they were playing was the power and gifting of the Holy Spirit?

My point is that to cry "blasphemy" doesn't go anywhere but an escalation of hostility.
TD:)

Again, blaspheming the Holy Spirit is speaking against the Spirit, calling the Holy Spirit a derogatory name such as the Devil.


Do you understand this?



JLB
 

JLB

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Ok, I get from your conversation that "fleshly phenomenon" = "the devil."
IMO you err on this point.
TD:)

I didn’t say “fleshly phenomenon“ = the devil.

Those are your words




JLB
 

tdidymas

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These certainly are not facts. Just your made up opinion.




JLB
Well, "facts" might be strong language, but certainly not made up, as it is the result of 20 years of experience and research. I'm willing to divulge that information to someone sincerely asking, but your attitude is ruling you out for that at this point, IMO.
TD:)
 

tdidymas

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Here is what Jesus said about the signs that follow believers.

Words of Christ in red —

Here is the truth.


And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:15-18


  • they will speak with new tongues;



Do any of these signs follow you?




JLB
I once thought as you do. Indeed, the apostles spoke with new tongues as He said, and many others in the 1st Century. But what we see today is not that. Those "new tongues" He spoke of was the clear message bearing languages that the apostles spoke in Acts 2, and was the same thing described in other places in Acts as well as 1 Cor.

But what I've seen today along with many others is not that, but rather the same old "language of the gods" that was and is spoken by many religions, cults, and other groups that has known written history back to before the 7th Century BC. And like I said before, it's a human phenomenon and natural skill that anyone can develop if they really want it, whether they are a Christian or not - this has been well proven.
TD:)
 

tdidymas

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I didn’t say “fleshly phenomenon“ = the devil.

Those are your words




JLB
My words of what I get from your conversation. It's your meaning, and you are harping on it. If you don't want to give that impression, then lay it down, or else show in your past posts how you can't be meaning that.
TD:)
 

JLB

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Well, "facts" might be strong language, but certainly not made up, as it is the result of 20 years of experience and research. I'm willing to divulge that information to someone sincerely asking, but your attitude is ruling you out for that at this point, IMO.
TD:)

Research?

Do you have the baptism with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues?


JLB
 

JLB

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My words of what I get from your conversation. It's your meaning, and you are harping on it. If you don't want to give that impression, then lay it down, or else show in your past posts how you can't be meaning that.
TD:)

No actually there your words.
 

JLB

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My words of what I get from your conversation. It's your meaning, and you are harping on it. If you don't want to give that impression, then lay it down, or else show in your past posts how you can't be meaning that.
TD:)

Please copy and paste the post where I said why you claim.
 

tdidymas

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I never said tongues was not a language.

It is the tongue of men and angels.


Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
1 Corinthians 13:1



JLB
If it were a language of angels, it would have a much greater vocabulary than a human language, since the experience of angels is far above ours. But modern "tongues" is not that, as it doesn't have enough vocabulary to convey any message, according to the linguist experts.

And besides this, that verse is part of Paul's exaggeration to make a point, just like giving his body to be burned and such. He's giving a worst-case (or best case) scenario to make his point. He is not saying that anyone was actually speaking a language of angels.

And besides that, who says that angels speak anything other than human languages (such as Hebrew, for example)? But "tongues of angels" is imaginary evidence to justify saying that the gibberish spoken is a language. And people fall for the con, because it's easy to be duped by such baffling speech when they don't know what's really going on.
TD:)
 

tdidymas

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No actually there your words.
Do you realize that anyone can read your thread above and know that what I said was true? Therefore, who cares that those were my words? The meaning that is conveyed by words is what is important.
TD:)
 

JLB

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f it were a language of angels, it would have a much greater vocabulary than a human language, since the experience of angels is far above ours. But modern "tongues" is not that, as it doesn't have enough vocabulary to convey any message, according to the linguist experts.


More opinion that conflicts with scripture.


Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
1 Corinthians 13:1



JLB
 
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