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There's no real common ground as we commune at different altars. As a consequence, I'm left with describing how and why the true altar appears in reality. I do not accept what isn't real; it would be like saying we can turn gravity on and off at will - it doesn't describe reality. Whereas Catholics have a single altar, while each non-Catholic has his own altar of reality within himself. This is the non-Catholic's choice to be grounded in himself as an authority whose rule and measure is not in himself. Conversely in Catholicism the "church of the living God" is the "pillar and ground of the truth." [1 Timothy 3:15].

As such, common ground looses all sense of mutual understanding.

This post in and of itself is an example, likely you don't have a clue as to why I would say there is no common ground. The practice of non-Catholics to accept principles not their own insofar as meet some vague image of their own concept of truth, whether it be true or not, i.e. accepting the “the tyranny of tolerance" [Pope Benedict XVI]. That is to say tolerance can be a virtue, however tolerance is its own enemy as it cannot tolerate intolerance.

So, were back to the subject of the thread. Mary should be, must be, for right reasoning in the faith of Jesus Christ a central figure through which God acts for our salvation. She is a singularity in Christology tying Old Testament prophesy with God's New Covenant, without whom Christ remains a mystic - a bad thing.

JosephT
I'm sorry,
But to be honest many of us are not going to be able to follow these leaps of logic.

Jesus' "true ecclessia/church" is God's. Meaning that it is uncountable and not measurable. Ecclessia means "called out ones". And when you have to include the many different churches in the area that Timothy ministered to (Ephasus, Corinth, Philipi, and etc) there were already factions and divisions in these different cities. (And different things in different cities as evidenced by the letters in Revelation) Some were following bad theological precepts and some good ones as well.

So to say that they were all united in theology and denomination is really stretching things a bit.

And then to include Mary solely because she was the vehicle of Christ's entrance to the Earth because she was mentioned in the Old Testament is stretching things. (Going beyond what is written)

Furthermore you assert that "Protestant" denominations all follow whatever the particular pastor says... again that's stretching things. Many Protestant denominations have a hierchy. (Methodists are a prime example.)
It's not up to an individual pastor. What you assert for the Pastor in Baptist churches may be true but I know that I don't follow the pastor in many of his theological positions he preaches. (I'm not sure he does either)
In short, the Bible (through careful hermeneutics) is the final authority in most Protestant denominations. Not any one individual person.

I understand where you hold dearly to the Catholic Church based on what you have delineated here. But to paint all Protestants with a very broad brush in such a fashion isn't exactly prudent on your part.
 
I'm sorry,

But to be honest many of us are not going to be able to follow these leaps of logic.
Why are you sorry? I’m quite sure you don’t wish for me to speak to you as a child, do you?

Jesus' "true ecclessia/church" is God's. Meaning that it is uncountable and not measurable. Ecclessia means "called out ones". And when you have to include the many different churches in the area that Timothy ministered to (Ephasus, Corinth, Philipi, and etc) there were already factions and divisions in these different cities. (And different things in different cities as evidenced by the letters in Revelation) Some were following bad theological precepts and some good ones as well.

Except that cyriacon, “house of the Lord” was used to mean “church.” After about the fourth century ecclessia, "the elect", was preferred. So, let’s see if we understand Jesus Christ instructed the Church to teach all nation [Matthew 28:19] he meant to counter his own prayer to be one in faith [John 17:19]. Jesus taught a Divine Truth. He gave the Church, through the apostles the power to teach that same Divine truth divinely.

So to say that they were all united in theology and denomination is really stretching things a bit.
I don’t recall saying they were, [‘they’ presumed to be Protestant] to be anything close to “unity”. Because each has individual has his own theology. I would characterize it as chaos in theology.

And then to include Mary solely because she was the vehicle of Christ's entrance to the Earth because she was mentioned in the Old Testament is stretching things. (Going beyond what is written)

I can show otherwise.

Marian Prophecy:
Genesis 3:15
Ezechiel 44:1-2
Isaias 7:14
Jeremias 31:22
Micaeas 5:2-3
Psalm 24:9

Marian Types:
Eve
Noah’s ark
Ark of the Covenant

Furthermore you assert that "Protestant" denominations all follow whatever the particular pastor says... again that's stretching things. Many Protestant denominations have a hierarchy. (Methodists are a prime example.)

I don’t believe I ever mention Protestant ministers and blindly following their pastors. In fact, I don’t believe Protestant “follow” at least not faithfully anybody except their own will. I believe I did say that. As for Methodists they evolved into Evangelists, each is his own denomination.

It's not up to an individual pastor. What you assert for the Pastor in Baptist churches may be true but I know that I don't follow the pastor in many of his theological positions he preaches. (I'm not sure he does either)

I never mentioned Protestant/reform/Evangelical pastors of any flavor or brand. What I assert is that the Protestant holds a philosophy where "It is contrary to the natural, innate, and inalienable right and liberty and dignity of man, to subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself". In other words it is the will of the individual right to determine the will of God - not a good thing in my book. We serve God’s will not our own.

In short, the Bible (through careful hermeneutics) is the final authority in most Protestant denominations. Not any one individual person.

If you do work hermeneutics properly on Scripture, then one must and will be Catholic in faith.

I understand where you hold dearly to the Catholic Church based on what you have delineated here. But to paint all Protestants with a very broad brush in such a fashion isn't exactly prudent on your part.
I’m glad you can appreciate my position. I haven’t fully explained my position on “Protestantism” in any of my posts so I not sure what type of brushes you think I’ve been painting with. I have however explained the contrast and distinctions between Protestantism and Catholicism on particular issues.

JosephT
 
Why are you sorry? I’m quite sure you don’t wish for me to speak to you as a child, do you?



Except that cyriacon, “house of the Lord” was used to mean “church.” After about the fourth century ecclessia, "the elect", was preferred. So, let’s see if we understand Jesus Christ instructed the Church to teach all nation [Matthew 28:19] he meant to counter his own prayer to be one in faith [John 17:19]. Jesus taught a Divine Truth. He gave the Church, through the apostles the power to teach that same Divine truth divinely.

I don’t recall saying they were, [‘they’ presumed to be Protestant] to be anything close to “unity”. Because each has individual has his own theology. I would characterize it as chaos in theology.



I can show otherwise.

Marian Prophecy:
Genesis 3:15
Ezechiel 44:1-2
Isaias 7:14
Jeremias 31:22
Micaeas 5:2-3
Psalm 24:9

Marian Types:
Eve
Noah’s ark
Ark of the Covenant



I don’t believe I ever mention Protestant ministers and blindly following their pastors. In fact, I don’t believe Protestant “follow” at least not faithfully anybody except their own will. I believe I did say that. As for Methodists they evolved into Evangelists, each is his own denomination.



I never mentioned Protestant/reform/Evangelical pastors of any flavor or brand. What I assert is that the Protestant holds a philosophy where "It is contrary to the natural, innate, and inalienable right and liberty and dignity of man, to subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself". In other words it is the will of the individual right to determine the will of God - not a good thing in my book. We serve God’s will not our own.



If you do work hermeneutics properly on Scripture, then one must and will be Catholic in faith.


I’m glad you can appreciate my position. I haven’t fully explained my position on “Protestantism” in any of my posts so I not sure what type of brushes you think I’ve been painting with. I have however explained the contrast and distinctions between Protestantism and Catholicism on particular issues.

JosephT
Apparently you are making a difference between evangelicals and protestants. Good!!!
Wasn't sure. Just met you.
The main point I was making is that regardless of denomination, we all worship the same God. That means that we are brothers.

Obviously though I am not going to join the catholic church. Nor are you likely to join an evangelical church next Sunday .

We are going to have differences in our hermeneutics...no matter what.
Where we see Jesus having half siblings...you don't.
Where we see the "Bride of Christ " you see Mary.
We hold to the concept of "sin begets more sin" but you hold to Apostolic Succession.
I could go on...

But we do have many things in common as well.
We both believe that Jesus paid the price for our sins
We believe that Jesus was raised to life on the third day.
We believe that repentance and faith are necessary for salvation.
We believe in the validity of scripture.
We believe that expressions of gratitude to God are not codified law but should come from everyone as God has gifted them.
And the list could go on here as well.

I guess the main point that I am trying to make is that we can focus on things that divide us or on things that unite us. I've visited with Catholics in Europe...and they are really different from American Catholics. They seem more like American Evangelicals in focus than anything else. I don't know why. (Smaller parishes?)

I find the Catholic beliefs fascinating and understandable even when I don't share in them. Catholics aren't the "Whore of Babylon " any more so than any other denomination. When I am afforded opportunities to witness I bring people to my church and I expect the same of you. We both expect that God will clean the "fish" we catch.
What say you?
 
I promised to clean gutters today. Since I made the promise, however, it seems the gutters have grown exponentially both in width and length to ungodly proportions, so I intend to be brief.

Apparently you are making a difference between evangelicals and Protestants. Good!!!
Wasn't sure. Just met you.

The main point I was making is that regardless of denomination, we all worship the same God. That means that we are brothers.
I contend that we do not all worship the same God; furthermore we eat at different tables. But, nevertheless Christians and Jews observe our relationship to one and the same human father, Adam.

I regard the primary and distinctive difference between non-Catholic Christians and Catholics is the distinction made between a subjective truths and objective truths. This can be discussed to no end in the appropriate thread.

We are going to have differences in our hermeneutics...no matter what.

This is a true observation but needn’t be so.

Where we see Jesus having half siblings...you don't.

This is because there are no uterine related kin in God’s plan, nor in Sacred Scripture.

Where we see the "Bride of Christ " you see Mary.

While Mary is metaphorically the bride of Christ, we tend to see the Church as the bride of Christ, thus Mary becomes the spiritual mother of the Church.
We hold to the concept of "sin begets more sin" but you hold to Apostolic Succession.

I could go on...

We do not beget sin, we do sin in our habitual vices. I am responsible for my actual sin, and I inherit from Adam the guilt and punishment of that original sin. Actual sin (my own sin) is nothing more than a voluntary immoral act, word or deed. Apostolic Succession has nothing to do with sin.

But we do have many things in common as well.

We both believe that Jesus paid the price for our sins.

Commonality depends on how the price was paid. Most Catholics believe that it is an error to believe that the payment was for penal substitution, primarily a Protestant theory which stems from Luther and Calvin - in my estimation it’s an empty theory because there wouldn’t have been sufficient blood even if we counted each red blood cell to counter as offering for each sin. That is to say, each sin was paid for by a drop of Christ’s blood. Penal substitution is a perversion of Anselm’s 12th century theory where the debt paid was accepted by God as ‘satisfactory’ to restore, at least in part, that original justice deprived to Adam for his sin.

Anselm’s theory of satisfactory substitution satisfied God’s justice restoring the original justice lost by Adam’s original sin. Justification (the grace of being made just) and "the sanctification of the whole being" [CCC 1995] is received in Baptism as an effect of grace, re-introducing man to the mercy of God, weakening of the original privation of justice whereby a new man is 'born again' into the rectitude of divine love. [CCC 1991] Hence, fidelity is demanded to 'work' with the process of being justified and becoming ‘right with God’.

The effect of 'justification' does not make us righteous, rather Christ merited for us an atonement conforming us in righteousness whereby we become inwardly just; that is having that moral quality or habit that perfectly joins the will to the will of God. Moving toward the justice in a contractual or commutative fashion will not produce a legal 'get out of jail free card' - obviously we've nothing worthy of equal value to give in return. Nothing less than the restoration of the original justice is our salvation is made possible only through the sacrifice of a perfect Lamb, Jesus Christ. The Lamb himself must have original justice, that justice God intended for all of mankind through heredity. Since Jesus Christ is wholly God and wholly man he cannot be born in need of justification (the act of being justified through some external process) - after all this God/man was just like us in every way except sin and He was the personified Living Grace. Our souls however are moving toward abiding in Christ, bite by bite each daily Mass until it reaches perfection in union with Christ.

However, without Mary as a biblical ark of Noah to bring the original justice once held by mankind man cannot know salvation - that was the Jew's problem. The victimization using animals does not satisfy God. Which brings us to the importance of Mary, being the New Eve bore God's eternal new Adam in the form of a perfect sacrificial lamb, without sin, with justice. After the great flood Noah’s dark seas became representative of sin in the Jewish culture. The punishment bore by all men is death which would have been Christ’s end had he not been born of an immaculate Mary. Mary carried Her Son across the dark seas of sin to the shores of our redemption. The Ever-Virgin Mary becomes a type of an ark of everlasting life, the mother of our Salvation, and the Queen of Heaven

We believe that Jesus was raised to life on the third day.

We believe that repentance and faith are necessary for salvation.

We believe in the validity of scripture.
We do indeed.

We believe that expressions of gratitude to God are not codified law but should come from everyone as God has gifted them.

And the list could go on here as well.

We believe that whatsoever is bound on earth by the Church is bound in heaven as we hear the Church. [Cf. Matthew 18:18; Luke 10:16]

I guess the main point that I am trying to make is that we can focus on things that divide us or on things that unite us. I've visited with Catholics in Europe...and they are really different from American Catholics. They seem more like American Evangelicals in focus than anything else. I don't know why. (Smaller parishes?)

The only commonality is the language of faith which you inherit from the Church as your branch fell from the tree. The meaning and intent are quite different, e.g. you are saved because the magic words are said “I believe . . .”; whereas Catholics receive eternal life by abiding in Christ [Cf. John 6:57]. Two different concepts are involved, one is subjective faith and the other is objective truth.

I find the Catholic beliefs fascinating and understandable even when I don't share in them. Catholics aren't the "Whore of Babylon " any more so than any other denomination. When I am afforded opportunities to witness I bring people to my church and I expect the same of you. We both expect that God will clean the "fish" we catch.

What say you?
I’m not sure if your fascination is meant as a good thing or a bad thing, but either way you should look into them.

Yes, cleaning the fish - purgatory.

Well if my good intentions were kept I would be finished with the purging of gutters by now.

JosephT
 
JosephT ,
Our common ground is the salvation we share in our Lord and Savior Jesus, the promised Messiah.

Because we share our common faith, we also share an appreciation toward His mother, Mary.

Jesus said, (NIV)
Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

We see here that it is the Altar that makes the gift Holy and the two work together. Therefore, we see the cross performing the function of the Alter and we understand that the Altar grounds the Table.

The remarks in your last comment makes me feel I'm not welcome at the Table of our Lord, yet you don't recognize that Orthodoxy protested against Rome well before Martin Luther.

Tell me, where are the Martin Luthers's and Calvin's which protested against the East and which denominations do they belong to?

I have three personal friends in Michigan. One attends the RCC, another the Greek Orthodox and the other Serbian Orthodox. Both Orthodox speak well of each other, yet they both protest against the RCC and I was shocked to hear their anger toward the RCC, yet they accept me and do not speak as badly against the Protestants to the degree Rome does. They actually hold Rome responsible for the Protestant movement.

It appears to me that your dogma teaches to to snare Protestants back under Rome's authority, and I get the feeling that is what you are trying to do here. Has it occurred to you why Luther left, and does not Rome have to take accountability for the thousands of Protestant denominations that sprung from Luther?
 
JosephT ,
Our common ground is the salvation we share in our Lord and Savior Jesus, the promised Messiah.

Because we share our common faith, we also share an appreciation toward His mother, Mary.

Jesus said, (NIV)
Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

We see here that it is the Altar that makes the gift Holy and the two work together. Therefore, we see the cross performing the function of the Alter and we understand that the Altar grounds the Table.

The remarks in your last comment makes me feel I'm not welcome at the Table of our Lord, yet you don't recognize that Orthodoxy protested against Rome well before Martin Luther.

Tell me, where are the Martin Luthers's and Calvin's which protested against the East and which denominations do they belong to?

I have three personal friends in Michigan. One attends the RCC, another the Greek Orthodox and the other Serbian Orthodox. Both Orthodox speak well of each other, yet they both protest against the RCC and I was shocked to hear their anger toward the RCC, yet they accept me and do not speak as badly against the Protestants to the degree Rome does. They actually hold Rome responsible for the Protestant movement.

It appears to me that your dogma teaches to to snare Protestants back under Rome's authority, and I get the feeling that is what you are trying to do here. Has it occurred to you why Luther left, and does not Rome have to take accountability for the thousands of Protestant denominations that sprung from Luther?

The Catholic must be particularly frustrating for you. The non-Catholic perception is that Catholics worship tradition, count beads for salvation, etc., etc.; following an old stodgy tradition that preserved God’s word for 1,500 years before dutifully handing that Word, verbatim mind you, to the Protestants to be properly reinterpreted. I'm sure you'd like to tell the Catholic, “your statues and scrolls are condemned by our common sense," (G.K. Chesterton). It's logical to think that after some 2,000 years of teaching Christ's word Catholics should add some sparkling new element to their old traditions and fuddy-duddy dogma.

I guess we've been found out, you noticed there seems to be an ensnarement? Surly you would think that all Catholics need to do is read the bible, denounce transubstantiation, denounce oral confession, denounce the clergy, and without a hint of a shudder, denounce the Pope in order to be properly saved according to a Protestant determination (assuming you could figure out which one). In fact Protestant's ask that Catholics denounce most all that is holy and salvific in the Sacraments.


But, the Snare? The problem though isn't the Church, its something closer to home. It's hard to explain, so I'll let C. K. Chesterton explain how it works:

”It is impossible to be just to the Catholic Church. The moment men cease to pull against it they feel a tug towards it. The moment they cease to shout it down they begin to listen to it with pleasure. The moment they try to be fair to it they begin to be fond of it. But when that affection has passed a certain point it begins to take on the tragic and menacing grandeur of a great love affair. The man has exactly the same sense of having…compromised himself; of having been in a sense entrapped, even if he is glad to be entrapped. But for a considerable time he is not so much glad as simply terrified. It may be that this real psychological experience has been misunderstood by stupider people and is responsible for all that remains of the legend that Rome is a mere trap. But that legend misses the whole point of the psychology. It is not the Pope who has set the trap or the priests who have baited it. The whole point of the position is that the trap is simply the truth. The whole point is that the man himself has made his way towards the trap of truth, and not the trap that has run after the man. All steps except the last step he has taken eagerly on his own account, out of interest in the truth; and even the last step, or the last stage, only alarms him because it is so very true". [The Catholic Church and Conversion]​


Luther's own words tell us what his intentions were as early as 1520 A.D. From the onset Luther’s goal was to destroy the Church. There was no attempt at ‘reform’ or ‘correction’ from a gloss we can see schism early in Luther’s career. His main goal was to tear down what Christ had built up. Considering himself a great prophet on the order of Moses, the great deceiver openly declared his desire to disrupt the Mass:

If I succeed in doing away with the Mass, then I shall believe I have completely conquered the Pope. On the Mass, as on a rock, the whole of the Papacy is based, with its monasteries, bishoprics, colleges, altars, services and doctrines. ... If the sacrilegious and cursed custom of Mass is overthrown, then the whole must fall. Through me Christ has begun to reveal the abomination standing in the Holy Place (Dan. ix. 27), and to destroy him [the Papal Antichrist] who has taken up his seat there with the devils help, with false miracles and deceiving signs. (Grisar, Luther, Vol. II, pg 320 seqq., London Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co., LTD., Broadway House, 68-74 Carter Lane, E.G., 1913)​


By the way, just so you're aware, she didn't fall.

JosephT
 
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The Catholic must be particularly frustrating for you. The non-Catholic perception is that Catholics worship tradition, count beads for salvation, etc., etc.; following an old stodgy tradition that preserved God’s word for 1,500 years before dutifully handing that Word, verbatim mind you, to the Protestants to be properly reinterpreted. I'm sure you'd like to tell the Catholic, “your statues and scrolls are condemned by our common sense," (G.K. Chesterton). It's logical to think that after some 2,000 years of teaching Christ's word Catholics should add some sparkling new element to their old traditions and fuddy-duddy dogma.

I guess we've been found out, you noticed there seems to be an ensnarement? Surly you would think that all Catholics need to do is read the bible, denounce transubstantiation, denounce oral confession, denounce the clergy, and without a hint of a shudder, denounce the Pope in order to be properly saved according to a Protestant determination (assuming you could figure out which one). In fact Protestant's ask that Catholics denounce most all that is holy and salvific in the Sacraments.


But, the Snare? The problem though isn't the Church, its something closer to home. It's hard to explain, so I'll let C. K. Chesterton explain how it works:

”It is impossible to be just to the Catholic Church. The moment men cease to pull against it they feel a tug towards it. The moment they cease to shout it down they begin to listen to it with pleasure. The moment they try to be fair to it they begin to be fond of it. But when that affection has passed a certain point it begins to take on the tragic and menacing grandeur of a great love affair. The man has exactly the same sense of having…compromised himself; of having been in a sense entrapped, even if he is glad to be entrapped. But for a considerable time he is not so much glad as simply terrified. It may be that this real psychological experience has been misunderstood by stupider people and is responsible for all that remains of the legend that Rome is a mere trap. But that legend misses the whole point of the psychology. It is not the Pope who has set the trap or the priests who have baited it. The whole point of the position is that the trap is simply the truth. The whole point is that the man himself has made his way towards the trap of truth, and not the trap that has run after the man. All steps except the last step he has taken eagerly on his own account, out of interest in the truth; and even the last step, or the last stage, only alarms him because it is so very true". [The Catholic Church and Conversion]​


Luther's own words tell us what his intentions were as early as 1520 A.D. From the onset Luther’s goal was to destroy the Church. There was no attempt at ‘reform’ or ‘correction’ from a gloss we can see schism early in Luther’s career. His main goal was to tear down what Christ had built up. Considering himself a great prophet on the order of Moses, the great deceiver openly declared his desire to disrupt the Mass:

If I succeed in doing away with the Mass, then I shall believe I have completely conquered the Pope. On the Mass, as on a rock, the whole of the Papacy is based, with its monasteries, bishoprics, colleges, altars, services and doctrines. ... If the sacrilegious and cursed custom of Mass is overthrown, then the whole must fall. Through me Christ has begun to reveal the abomination standing in the Holy Place (Dan. ix. 27), and to destroy him [the Papal Antichrist] who has taken up his seat there with the devils help, with false miracles and deceiving signs. (Grisar, Luther, Vol. II, pg 320 seqq., London Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co., LTD., Broadway House, 68-74 Carter Lane, E.G., 1913)​


By the way, just so you're aware, she didn't fall.

JosephT
No offense, but I only read the first few paragraphs and decided that was enough.

You know what they say about assumptions don't you?

If you want to know what I believe, please just ask me.

It must be frustrating not to know who believes what in the Protestant side. We're certainly diverse.

One thing I would like you to know is this. I accept you regardless if your Catholic or not.
 
I wanted to add this. I do see your frustration with Protestants and your frustrations are as real as the frustrations we feel. But where does the healing begin? Where do we start to bridge the divide?

If praying to Mary brings you closer to God, then by all means pray to her. But keep it as a precious Pearl, and don't let the swine trample on it.

I would like to work with you to help bridge the gap that divides us, but it will take patience, and there will be long-suffering. I believe it starts with a mutual respect for one another and an open dialog that seeks mutual understanding knowing it may only end in mutual respect.

It's no easy task
 
If I succeed in doing away with the Mass, then I shall believe I have completely conquered the Pope. On the Mass, as on a rock, the whole of the Papacy is based, with its monasteries, bishoprics, colleges, altars, services and doctrines. ... If the sacrilegious and cursed custom of Mass is overthrown, then the whole must fall. Through me Christ has begun to reveal the abomination standing in the Holy Place (Dan. ix. 27), and to destroy him [the Papal Antichrist] who has taken up his seat there with the devils help, with false miracles and deceiving signs. (Grisar, Luther, Vol. II, pg 320 seqq., London Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co., LTD., Broadway House, 68-74 Carter Lane, E.G., 1913)
Can you provide the reference to documents authored by The Reverend Martin Luther himself? I'd be interested in seeing that.
 
Can you provide the reference to documents authored by The Reverend Martin Luther himself? I'd be interested in seeing that.

This link is to whole book: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/49065/49065-h/49065-h.htm it's broken down into chapters

This link should get you close to page 320: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/49065/49065-h/49065-h.htm#Page_312 do a 'ctr. f' in your browser and it should take you straight to the passage on page 320

This link gets you to various formats http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/49065

If you search around on this website you may be able to find all six volumes.

Hartmann Grisar is a late 19th century, early 20th, century historian critical of Luther. He gives quite a different perspective than the more modern historians like to give. Warren H. Carroll in his book The Cleaving of Christendom makes extensive reference to Grisar in the discussion of Luther.

In volume I you'll find the story of the Tower of the Monastery where Luther discovers ‘faith alone;’ also it’s here that he first discovers his ‘Evangel’ in secret places of the monastery. It turns out the secret place is the latrine. The “privy situated above the Hypocaustom” is a hollow space or system of channels in the floor providing a central heating system, receiving and distributing heat from a furnace throughout the castle. It's an architectural feature of Roman Villas where the servants burned brush and wood to keep the occupants warm. The fumes created by the fire in the furnace seep up and waft out of every nook and cranny filling the entire castle with smoke and fumes, most notably carbon monoxide gases. Of course you know large concentrations of carbon monoxide in a very short time can cause death. However, long exposure to moderate amounts of Co causes one or more of the following: lightheadedness, depression, paranoia, confusion, memory loss, delirium, emotional disturbances, and hallucinations.

JosephT
 
What triggered that post was not only directed at you, but it was also directed at MarkT and turnorburn or any other members that stumble in.

We need to start showing some Grace to one another. We do this by stating what we believe and why we believe. If somebody disagrees, you listen to what they believe and why they believe. From there, find your common ground and build a relationship with the other on that common ground.

If we build that foundation first, it gives us a platform to speak about our differences with mutual respect for one another. Please note, our theological differences do not need to divide us.

Unity is not uniformity, but rather its the ability to stay together knowing our differences.

I said at the offset of this thread that we need to respect each other's views. That means we can express our views, but we are not going to start making claims that the other view is wrong and putting the focus on how wrong the other is, wash, rinse, repeat....

It is a given, and stupid to believe that every member of this site is going to think as highly of Mary as others. And if it is anyone's hearts desire to run the other through the mill on this or any other topic, speak up now and I'll start terminating accounts now so we can all save some time and aggravation.
i speak from hands on experience having lived in Mexico and seen what Rome has done to the people..
 
i speak from hands on experience having lived in Mexico and seen what Rome has done to the people..
I'm not sure JosephT is around anymore.
I'm sorry if he's not.

Catholics are Christian just like anyone else that claims to be Christian. Because their belief system is different does not make them any less so.

Every church has its own belief system, and I also do not agree with some that are Protestant, as I am.

What could you have seen in Mexico that so turned you off to Catholicism? I've noticed from the very start of my life here on CFnet that you dislike Catholics. I won't ever understand this dislike.
 
I'm not sure JosephT is around anymore.
I'm sorry if he's not.

Catholics are Christian just like anyone else that claims to be Christian. Because their belief system is different does not make them any less so.

Every church has its own belief system, and I also do not agree with some that are Protestant, as I am.

What could you have seen in Mexico that so turned you off to Catholicism? I've noticed from the very start of my life here on CFnet that you dislike Catholics. I won't ever understand this dislike.

JosephT was asked not to post here anymore.


As for Catholics in Mexico, it is amazing to find any faith there given the history of extreme persecution of Catholics by the Mexican government.
 
JosephT was asked not to post here anymore.


As for Catholics in Mexico, it is amazing to find any faith there given the history of extreme persecution of Catholics by the Mexican government.
The administrators here are very fair and I'll have to accept that he broke some important rule.

I'm sorry to say I don't know too much about what has happened in Mexico. I do know that some priests have been killed there, but this is true for many S. American countries.

I think it's because they took sides in the politics there. I forget what the cause was called....

I can't remember.
 
The administrators here are very fair and I'll have to accept that he broke some important rule.

Not really, but it's their site so they can do as they please.

I'm sorry to say I don't know too much about what has happened in Mexico. I do know that some priests have been killed there, but this is true for many S. American countries.

I think it's because they took sides in the politics there. I forget what the cause was called....

I can't remember.

Catholics were actually forbidden to enter politics. The Catholic Church was actually outlawed, as it could not own property, schools, have monasteries and convents, or have any public worship. Many priests and lay people were martyred for their faith. If you read about how severe the persecution was, it is actually amazing the faith survived.

British author (and convert) Graham Greene wrote a novel about it entitled The Power and the Glory, if you are interested in reading about it.
 
Not really, but it's their site so they can do as they please.



Catholics were actually forbidden to enter politics. The Catholic Church was actually outlawed, as it could not own property, schools, have monasteries and convents, or have any public worship. Many priests and lay people were martyred for their faith. If you read about how severe the persecution was, it is actually amazing the faith survived.

British author (and convert) Graham Greene wrote a novel about it entitled The Power and the Glory, if you are interested in reading about it.
Thanks W.
I've been reading about this online and there's so much I didn't know.

It's pretty horrible.
Isn't it just wonderful that it's the left that believes they have the open mind?

I'm posting the Wiki link...
notice the See Also at the end...
It refers to the book you suggested...

Don't know if I can get it,,,but thanks.

Mexico is where La Madona de Guadalupe was seen.
Yes, it's a miracle it even survived.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_Mexico
 
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Thanks W.
I've been reading about this online and there's so much I didn't know.

It's pretty horrible.
Isn't it just wonderful that it's the left that believes they have the open mind?

It was very horrible and I'm always amazed how the faith survives in the face of severe persecution.

Very true about the left...they despise religion.

I'm posting the Wiki link...
notice the See Also at the end...
It refers to the book you suggested...

Don't know if I can get it,,,but thanks.

Mexico is where La Madona de Guadalupe was seen.
Yes, it's a miracle it even survived.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_Mexico

Thanks for the link. I'll read the article.

Yes, Guadalupe is itself miraculous, from the image itself to the millions of Aztecs converting shortly after the appearance.
 
It was very horrible and I'm always amazed how the faith survives in the face of severe persecution.

Very true about the left...they despise religion.



Thanks for the link. I'll read the article.

Yes, Guadalupe is itself miraculous, from the image itself to the millions of Aztecs converting shortly after the appearance.
The gates of hell shall not prevail...
Mathew 16:18

The gate of hell in Israel, Caeserea Philippi:

1548795289082.png


Caeserea Philippi

1548795565157.png
 
I'm not sure JosephT is around anymore.
I'm sorry if he's not.

Catholics are Christian just like anyone else that claims to be Christian. Because their belief system is different does not make them any less so.

Every church has its own belief system, and I also do not agree with some that are Protestant, as I am.

What could you have seen in Mexico that so turned you off to Catholicism? I've noticed from the very start of my life here on CFnet that you dislike Catholics. I won't ever understand this dislike.
I've always wondered why it is people think that i dislike Catholics..could you please point out a thread or a post that's given you that impression?

Thanks..
 
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