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Stoned to death

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The strongest anti-abortion argument I have read, ever, was written by Pope John Paul II. It was...I think its called an encyclical...regarding "The Culture of Death." In it, the Pope goes into detail about modern society's death wish, as evidenced by...

divorce, contraception, -abortion- , sodomy, sexual deviance of all sorts...

leaping over into drugs, suicide, etc.

see? tradition+reason+history+Scripture+inspiration from THE LORD ...

combine to create a beautiful argument. Seriously. Christianity as a beacon of light in a world that's on a death march.

anyway, even though I personally think both Roe v Wade + Doe v Bolton should just be left alone, I loathe the practice of abortion. Stepping outside of Scripture, I'd bring up eugenics. Abortion and sterilization, also voluntary contraception, help the elites control the bodies, lives, and reproduction of "undesirables" (read: minorities, the poor, the working classes, the mentally ill). Eugenics has a long, ugly history...

fun fact: The Nazis took the US eugenics programs to their logical conclusion, starting with the mass slaughter of 'undesirables,' especially psych inpatients. well before Hitler's time, -some- 'progressive' medical professionals (seems a lot of psychiatrists, for some reason) proposed euthanasia as a way to cut costs and reduce suffering, by reducing the 'burden' that 'defectives' placed on society.

of course, forced sterilization wasn't limited to the US. China is an example, of course.

and going back to the "Culture of Death" concept, look at how 'progressive' Belgium and The Netherlands are...

euthanasia, physician facilitated suicide...up, up, and away.

i do not think that dealing with abortion without putting it into the larger social and moral framework is particularly prudent, or helpful, either.
 

wondering

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Being stoned to death by the laws written in the Torah is similar to capitol punishment today, especially that of the crime of murder that God establish in Genesis 9:6. The only thing is today many have become desensitized to what is right or wrong by their unaware acts of evil and try to justify sin by man's standards and laws, but yet forsake God's commands.

IMO since I can not find any scripture that stoning to death has ended. All I can think of is that under the better covenant of God's grace through Christ Jesus and the greatest commandment of love now fulfills the law of stoning one to death. Romans 13:10.

This does not mean that crimes should not be punished against the malice and forethought of the motive of a person as the only laws that have been fulfilled by Christ are those that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah , Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. The moral laws have never changed in how we are to be obedient to God's commands within the moral laws.
This is also for WIP

There's a problem here that is not being faced.

Stoning today HAS been abolished since it was part of the civil law.
The Civil Law no longer exists,,,at least not for Christians.

There were 3 types of Law in the O.T.
CIVIL LAW
CEREMONIAL LAW
MORAL LAW

The civil and ceremonial law have been abolished.
The MORAL LAW (the 10 commandmens) has not been abolished.

Let me see if I could get a link to this.


This is short and concise...
more can be found.


 

wondering

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The strongest anti-abortion argument I have read, ever, was written by Pope John Paul II. It was...I think its called an encyclical...regarding "The Culture of Death." In it, the Pope goes into detail about modern society's death wish, as evidenced by...

divorce, contraception, -abortion- , sodomy, sexual deviance of all sorts...

leaping over into drugs, suicide, etc.

see? tradition+reason+history+Scripture+inspiration from THE LORD ...

combine to create a beautiful argument. Seriously. Christianity as a beacon of light in a world that's on a death march.

anyway, even though I personally think both Roe v Wade + Doe v Bolton should just be left alone, I loathe the practice of abortion. Stepping outside of Scripture, I'd bring up eugenics. Abortion and sterilization, also voluntary contraception, help the elites control the bodies, lives, and reproduction of "undesirables" (read: minorities, the poor, the working classes, the mentally ill). Eugenics has a long, ugly history...

fun fact: The Nazis took the US eugenics programs to their logical conclusion, starting with the mass slaughter of 'undesirables,' especially psych inpatients. well before Hitler's time, -some- 'progressive' medical professionals (seems a lot of psychiatrists, for some reason) proposed euthanasia as a way to cut costs and reduce suffering, by reducing the 'burden' that 'defectives' placed on society.

of course, forced sterilization wasn't limited to the US. China is an example, of course.

and going back to the "Culture of Death" concept, look at how 'progressive' Belgium and The Netherlands are...

euthanasia, physician facilitated suicide...up, up, and away.

i do not think that dealing with abortion without putting it into the larger social and moral framework is particularly prudent, or helpful, either.
Good post CE.

Also, I'd like to add that abortion was supposed to eliminate unwanted pregnancies and so the children that WERE born would be loved and cherished and child abuse would come to an end.

But, as the pope you mentioned stated in his encyclical...
the opposite happened.

Why? Because we learned to take life for granted...we learned that children were of little value and could be done away with. Life became cheap and meaningless....

So what happened?
There was MORE child abuse.

Yes, I'm old enough to actually remember all this.
Sometimes man tries to fix a problem but ends up making it worse.

Those are are God-inspired seem to know better what to do, and/or what to believe or how to solve a problem.
 

WIP

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This is also for WIP

There's a problem here that is not being faced.

Stoning today HAS been abolished since it was part of the civil law.
The Civil Law no longer exists,,,at least not for Christians.

There were 3 types of Law in the O.T.
CIVIL LAW
CEREMONIAL LAW
MORAL LAW

The civil and ceremonial law have been abolished.
The MORAL LAW (the 10 commandmens) has not been abolished.

Let me see if I could get a link to this.


This is short and concise...
more can be found.


I don't think I'm being clear. Could you help my find in Scripture where it says some laws have been abolished? All I can find is where Jesus said that He did not come to destroy or abolish the law but to fulfill the law. I believe the law still exists but those in Christ are free from the law and no longer held captive by it. It still remains nonetheless.
 

for_his_glory

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This is also for WIP

There's a problem here that is not being faced.

Stoning today HAS been abolished since it was part of the civil law.
The Civil Law no longer exists,,,at least not for Christians.

There were 3 types of Law in the O.T.
CIVIL LAW
CEREMONIAL LAW
MORAL LAW

The civil and ceremonial law have been abolished.
The MORAL LAW (the 10 commandmens) has not been abolished.

Let me see if I could get a link to this.


This is short and concise...
more can be found.


www.jewfaq.org

Noahic (Noah) Commandments are seven commandments first given to Adam by God before the flood and brought to remembrance by God to Noah after the flood, which are binding on both Jew and Gentile as there were no Jew or Gentile in the days of Noah. Abraham was the first one to be called a Hebrew, Genesis 14:13. The seven make up the first parts of the ten that God gave to Moses on Mt Sinai in Exodus 20. Below is a comparison list of the seven and the full ten which are all a part of the 613 laws given to Moses as some were for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite and then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all, Jew and Gentile to follow. Christ did not come to destroy all the laws, but to fulfill the parts of the Temple and sacrifices, Matthew 5:17-22.

Noahic Laws:
Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
To establish courts of justice.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.

Mt. Sinai Laws:
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.


Part of the ten laws broken down to various commands within one law:
Other gods and idols are as one not to worship, but broke down into two commands

Remember the Sabbath was added to the ten commandments by God as a remembrance of all God did in six days (Gods timing) and rested on the seventh, Genesis 2:1-3; Matthew 12:1-13

To establish courts of justice was only given to Noah for the new generations to come after the flood

Honor your father and mother was not given to Noah, but was added to the ten commandments by God as the generations grew.

Not to covet was added to the ten commandments by God, but broke down into seven commands as your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.
 

for_his_glory

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The strongest anti-abortion argument I have read, ever, was written by Pope John Paul II. It was...I think its called an encyclical...regarding "The Culture of Death." In it, the Pope goes into detail about modern society's death wish, as evidenced by...

divorce, contraception, -abortion- , sodomy, sexual deviance of all sorts...

leaping over into drugs, suicide, etc.

see? tradition+reason+history+Scripture+inspiration from THE LORD ...

combine to create a beautiful argument. Seriously. Christianity as a beacon of light in a world that's on a death march.

anyway, even though I personally think both Roe v Wade + Doe v Bolton should just be left alone, I loathe the practice of abortion. Stepping outside of Scripture, I'd bring up eugenics. Abortion and sterilization, also voluntary contraception, help the elites control the bodies, lives, and reproduction of "undesirables" (read: minorities, the poor, the working classes, the mentally ill). Eugenics has a long, ugly history...

fun fact: The Nazis took the US eugenics programs to their logical conclusion, starting with the mass slaughter of 'undesirables,' especially psych inpatients. well before Hitler's time, -some- 'progressive' medical professionals (seems a lot of psychiatrists, for some reason) proposed euthanasia as a way to cut costs and reduce suffering, by reducing the 'burden' that 'defectives' placed on society.

of course, forced sterilization wasn't limited to the US. China is an example, of course.

and going back to the "Culture of Death" concept, look at how 'progressive' Belgium and The Netherlands are...

euthanasia, physician facilitated suicide...up, up, and away.

i do not think that dealing with abortion without putting it into the larger social and moral framework is particularly prudent, or helpful, either.
The Bible never specifically addresses the issue of abortion. However, there are numerous teachings in Scripture that make it abundantly clear what God’s view of abortion is. Jeremiah 1:5 tells us that God knows us before He forms us in the womb. Psalm 139:13-16 speaks of God’s active role in our creation and formation in the womb. Exodus 21:22-25 prescribes the same penalty, death, for someone who causes the death of a baby in the womb as for someone who commits murder. This clearly indicates that God considers a baby in the womb to be as human as a full-grown adult. For the Christian, abortion is not a matter of a woman’s right to choose. It is a matter of the life or death of a human being made in God’s image (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:6).
 

wondering

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wondering,

I think the NIV rendering helps clear it up for me:


The punishment for a murderer, based on testimonies of more than one witness, was capital punishment, for which no ransom could be accepted. The permanent punishment was the death of the murderer.
OK



This generic 'many theologians' is not helpful in a discussion. Please quote them by name and give references so I can follow them up.

There is a good discussion of some of the difficulties in the Book of Numbers in Gleason Archer, Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties (online), pp. 129-134.
Oz, I'm not a scholar like you are and I do not study like you do.
I go by what I've learned in a couple of churches and what little I've read. I cannot even attempt to list bibliographies like you do.

I know that fundamentalists take every word in the entire bible as the actual word of God. Not all Christians do, and I happen to be one of those that do not.

This is the best I could do....




That is not my conclusion after studying this for decades. See my response to the JEDP authorship of the Pentateuch in: JEDP Documentary Hypothesis refuted
This is a demonstration of the change from the 'rules' of the Old Covenant to the 'rules' of the New Covenant. It has nothing to do with God changing, but with God's dispensation changing as we move to the climax of history and Jesus' Second Coming.

Oz
This is just too much for me to digest Oz.
I'm not saying Moses did NOT write either all or most of the Torah.
What I'm saying is that we can't be sure. Your reasoning is very sound,,,as it always is...but I just don't know how we could be sure.

What I'm saying...is that Moses added some of those rules and they may not be specifically from God..

I know this is rejected by fundamentalist Christians, but we do have to admit that Jesus fixed some of those incorrect rules/laws that are found in the Torah.
 
Last edited:

wondering

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hi. me, the recovering gay dude...who would have qualified for the death penalty under Leviticus. --Grace-- , my friends, --Grace-- .

The OT laws were imperfect. Remember Jesus, talking about divorce? He laid down --God's rules-- and pointed out that the OT law was crafted taking into account '...the hardness of their hearts... ,' or something to that effect. and so...

with His Crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, THE LORD fulfilled OT law, and all those who come to truly believe upon Him need not fear being stoned for sodomy or adultery or finding themselves set aside to make way for a newer, younger bride...

because God reveals His --true nature-- in God made Flesh, THE LORD. lowly and poor, also...God...miracle worker, killed by those He came to save...

all part of the plan, it seems.

Jesus actually corrected a few of the O.T. laws....
"you have heard it said...but I say to you...."
These were corrections.
 
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Does that mean it's ok then?
no, no...not at all. I'm just trying to point that some issues, topics, even whole doctrines (The Trinity, fine example...) are not explicitly laid out in Scripture. Even as a Protestant, I must say...kinda makes me question 'sola scriptura,' on a number of levels. :)
 

wondering

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www.jewfaq.org

Noahic (Noah) Commandments are seven commandments first given to Adam by God before the flood and brought to remembrance by God to Noah after the flood, which are binding on both Jew and Gentile as there were no Jew or Gentile in the days of Noah. Abraham was the first one to be called a Hebrew, Genesis 14:13. The seven make up the first parts of the ten that God gave to Moses on Mt Sinai in Exodus 20. Below is a comparison list of the seven and the full ten which are all a part of the 613 laws given to Moses as some were for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite and then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all, Jew and Gentile to follow. Christ did not come to destroy all the laws, but to fulfill the parts of the Temple and sacrifices, Matthew 5:17-22.

Noahic Laws:
Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
To establish courts of justice.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.

Mt. Sinai Laws:
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.


Part of the ten laws broken down to various commands within one law:
Other gods and idols are as one not to worship, but broke down into two commands

Remember the Sabbath was added to the ten commandments by God as a remembrance of all God did in six days (Gods timing) and rested on the seventh, Genesis 2:1-3; Matthew 12:1-13

To establish courts of justice was only given to Noah for the new generations to come after the flood

Honor your father and mother was not given to Noah, but was added to the ten commandments by God as the generations grew.

Not to covet was added to the ten commandments by God, but broke down into seven commands as your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.
I used to know a woman that was of the faith of the Noahic...I can't remember what it's called, but the word Noah is in the title.

I like these laws because they are simple.

I also like to remember the Natural Laws of God....not to be confused with the Law of Nature.

Also it would seem that remembering the Sabbath is no longer for Christians --- although this topic is beyond what I've studied.
 

wondering

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The Bible never specifically addresses the issue of abortion. However, there are numerous teachings in Scripture that make it abundantly clear what God’s view of abortion is. Jeremiah 1:5 tells us that God knows us before He forms us in the womb. Psalm 139:13-16 speaks of God’s active role in our creation and formation in the womb. Exodus 21:22-25 prescribes the same penalty, death, for someone who causes the death of a baby in the womb as for someone who commits murder. This clearly indicates that God considers a baby in the womb to be as human as a full-grown adult. For the Christian, abortion is not a matter of a woman’s right to choose. It is a matter of the life or death of a human being made in God’s image (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:6).
It's impossible for the bible to address every issue that could come up in a person's life.

I cannot, however, think of one that is not covered somehow by the 10 commandments...or the Great Commandments of Christ.

Abortion is covered under Do Not Murder.
Drug addiction is covered under Love Yourself.
etc.
 

JohnDB

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to be fair here...abortion is not specifically dealt with in Scripture.
Actually that is not true. It is.
But because it isn't explicitly stated in a fashion our westernized mindsets will accept it is obfuscated and deliberately overlooked.

The story of Simon from Cyrene in the Spice Market of Jerusalem forced into carrying the cross piece for Jesus is a pointed story of what God thinks about abortion and those who are involved.
It's not a positive in any fashion.
 

Christ the King

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It's impossible for the bible to address every issue that could come up in a person's life.

I cannot, however, think of one that is not covered somehow by the 10 commandments...or the Great Commandments of Christ.
Contraception is the first one that comes to mind
Is it right or wrong from a Christian perspective and why?
 

wondering

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Contraception is the first one that comes to mind
Is it right or wrong from a Christian perspective and why?
From a Christian perspective it is wrong because it is considered to be a "waste" of semen.

Genesis 38:8-10

Pope John Paul II wrote a wonderful encyclical called Humanae Vitae
that explains why contraception is not a good idea.

This post does not state that I agree with it.
I just don't understand this.
 

wondering

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I don't think I'm being clear. Could you help my find in Scripture where it says some laws have been abolished? All I can find is where Jesus said that He did not come to destroy or abolish the law but to fulfill the law. I believe the law still exists but those in Christ are free from the law and no longer held captive by it. It still remains nonetheless.
WIP,
I'm sorry I haven't been understanding.
I don't believe it says anywhere in scripture that some laws were abolished except, for instance, in Acts when it's determined that Gentiles are not to be circumcised or that they are not required to abstain from certain foods. Ephesians 2:15 alludes to this, but does not make it clear.

This has just been determined from biblical study just like the Trinity has been determined to be true.

Think of it....do we still follow the civil laws of the O.T.?
Do we still follow the ceremonial laws of the O.T.?
If not, then it means they have been abolished.

This might be helpful...



This might be more detailed...I offer it, but have not studied it.


 

OzSpen

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I don't think I'm being clear. Could you help my find in Scripture where it says some laws have been abolished? All I can find is where Jesus said that He did not come to destroy or abolish the law but to fulfill the law. I believe the law still exists but those in Christ are free from the law and no longer held captive by it. It still remains nonetheless.
WIP,

Since Jesus came to fulfill the Law (Matt 5:17), I understand this to mean that OT laws that pointed to Jesus were fulfilled in every way they pointed to him.

That's why we keep some of the OT laws and ignore others. For example, one of the 10 Commandments was to keep the Sabbath (Ex 20:8). When it came to one day of worship and the Lord's Supper in the NT, Christians met on the Lord's Day of the first day of the week (Rev 1:10; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor 16:2).

Oz
 

WIP

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We might be just differing semantically.

To me, if the law is fulfilled it is complete and therefore we are no longer held under its decrees. Since Jesus fulfilled the law, those who are in Christ are no longer under the law but under grace. Those who reject Christ are not in Christ, remain under the law, and will be condemned by the law. I'm referencing Romans 2:12-16 NKJV.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
 

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