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lisa-in-FL

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I've been reading about this since its a fairly hot topic in the US and some of the younger people I work with were talking about their debt the other day. Apparently for the last 15 years its suddenly become the norm for high school grads to start taking out loans to pay for college and college tuition has risen considerably as well.
I've seen stories of people with loans in the $160K range which is like a mortgage (depending on where you live), but without the equity you can build up in owning a house. One girl I work with was talking about going to the bank for a loan each year like she was just taking $15K out of the ATM.
I'm fascinated by this topic because I think its driving the push to socialism and certain candidates promising free college educations and loan forgiveness.
I went to college when it wasn't as expensive, had a partial scholarship through the FL lottery (bright futures) program, worked part-time, lived at home until I got a full-time job after graduating and had some help from my parents. So thankfully, I didn't have to take out a single loan.
I do understand the stress that debt causes though. I built up some credit card debt because of unexpected expenses, paid it off and then got into debt again while I was unemployed and I'm working on paying it off again.
It can make you feel very stuck.

I don't really have a point with this post so I'll just end with - I'm grateful that Jesus Christ paid off my sin debt for me because I'd never be able to do it myself.
:)
 
It's a huge scam these days.

Educational Degrees have lost most of their value today. A bachelor's degree is like the high school diploma of old. A master's degree is the gold standard today... tomorrow the doctorate degree.

And a bachelor's degree will require 5 years instead of four because of the even heavier class loading. Government grants and scholarships are also increasing the cost of an education exponentially. Schools aren't poor....they are exceedingly wealthy profit centers called non-profit organizations.

University hospitals leading the way in expense to the taxpayers on several fronts.

Medicaid(indigent health care)
Research funding
Education grants.

It's really a mess today. All this on the taxpayers money. (Playing lottery is a self imposed stupid tax)
 
Yup, so true. I met a guy who is my age and was in retail management, no college degree and we made the same money.
I've hit a point where I would need to get an MBA to really get anywhere and I have no interest in paying upwards of $50K for the privilege.
And agreed about the schools rolling in dough. I went to a local community college before transferring to a state college. The CC turned itself into a state college and has tripled in size and the University has as well. They do a lot of medical research which is great (when done right), I just wish they weren't benefiting from both cash from student loans coming in and taxpayer funds. Isn't that like double-dipping?
 
I went to college for one year after graduating high school. Why one year? I was the oldest of seven children and my parents were hardly well to do so they told me they would not be able to help me finance my college. What my mother told was that if I go to college I could live at home at no cost and everything would be as it was. While I was home during the summer I was required to find a job and save what I could to put toward my college expenses. If I chose to stop going to college then I had to either pay rent to live at home or find my own place.

My first year in college started in the fall of 1977. I was not awarded any scholarships during my high school career so my college expenses were going to be my own. I applied for a student loan and between that loan and the money I had saved, I managed to pay for my first year.

During that first summer break, I was working for a logger until I got an offer to work in one of the iron mines in northern MN. That job offered me $7.21 per hour to start. At that point I decided that I had a good paying job and considering that I would probably finish college with about $10,000.00 in debt, I decided why bother. I kick myself to this day for not completing my schooling.

Back then, $10,000.00 was a lot of money and $7.21 per hour was enough to support a small family. Minimum wage was $2.25 per hour. In addition to my hourly rate, I also worked a 21-day shift rotation so I got an extra $.20 per hour on afternoons and $.30 per hour on midnights plus 1-1/2 time on Saturdays (worked three per month), double time on Sundays (worked three per month), double time on holidays, and the rotation worked out to at least one day overtime at 1-1/2 time pay per month. Add it all up and my gross salary was just over $19,000.00.

According to the American Institute of Economic Research cost of living calculator, $19,000.00 1978 equates to just about $74,000.00 today. In today's dollars, had I finished school and ended with that $10,000.00 debt, it would be equivalent to just about $40,000.00 today.

That's not bad but the school I attended was hardly a major university. Costs at the UofM or UMD at that time would have been at least double or more and a major university like USC or UCLA or Harvard or something along those lines would be out of reach for someone like me.

There are things we have today that were not available when I was in high school. All three of my children were able to take college credited classes during their high school years and the credits were at no charge. My son actually got his AA before he graduated from high school. He received a full ride scholarship for his first year in college at the University of Wisconsin in Superior. Our oldest daughter entered NDSU in Fargo with all of her general ed. credits already done except for one class plus she received a scholarship that paid for all her books the first year. I estimated the savings were between $30,000.00 and $35,000.00.

There are ways if our children really want it.
 
I went to college for one year after graduating high school. Why one year? I was the oldest of seven children and my parents were hardly well to do so they told me they would not be able to help me finance my college. What my mother told was that if I go to college I could live at home at no cost and everything would be as it was. While I was home during the summer I was required to find a job and save what I could to put toward my college expenses. If I chose to stop going to college then I had to either pay rent to live at home or find my own place.

My first year in college started in the fall of 1977. I was not awarded any scholarships during my high school career so my college expenses were going to be my own. I applied for a student loan and between that loan and the money I had saved, I managed to pay for my first year.

During that first summer break, I was working for a logger until I got an offer to work in one of the iron mines in northern MN. That job offered me $7.21 per hour to start. At that point I decided that I had a good paying job and considering that I would probably finish college with about $10,000.00 in debt, I decided why bother. I kick myself to this day for not completing my schooling.

Back then, $10,000.00 was a lot of money and $7.21 per hour was enough to support a small family. Minimum wage was $2.25 per hour. In addition to my hourly rate, I also worked a 21-day shift rotation so I got an extra $.20 per hour on afternoons and $.30 per hour on midnights plus 1-1/2 time on Saturdays (worked three per month), double time on Sundays (worked three per month), double time on holidays, and the rotation worked out to at least one day overtime at 1-1/2 time pay per month. Add it all up and my gross salary was just over $19,000.00.

According to the American Institute of Economic Research cost of living calculator, $19,000.00 1978 equates to just about $74,000.00 today. In today's dollars, had I finished school and ended with that $10,000.00 debt, it would be equivalent to just about $40,000.00 today.

That's not bad but the school I attended was hardly a major university. Costs at the UofM or UMD at that time would have been at least double or more and a major university like USC or UCLA or Harvard or something along those lines would be out of reach for someone like me.

There are things we have today that were not available when I was in high school. All three of my children were able to take college credited classes during their high school years and the credits were at no charge. My son actually got his AA before he graduated from high school. He received a full ride scholarship for his first year in college at the University of Wisconsin in Superior. Our oldest daughter entered NDSU in Fargo with all of her general ed. credits already done except for one class plus she received a scholarship that paid for all her books the first year. I estimated the savings were between $30,000.00 and $35,000.00.

There are ways if our children really want it.
I'm curious why you kick yourself for not completing college, if you don't mind my asking? It sounds like you had a good paying job.

And thanks for sharing about your kids. There are other options so I'm glad to hear not everyone goes straight to the student loan route.
 
Yup, so true. I met a guy who is my age and was in retail management, no college degree and we made the same money.
I've hit a point where I would need to get an MBA to really get anywhere and I have no interest in paying upwards of $50K for the privilege.
And agreed about the schools rolling in dough. I went to a local community college before transferring to a state college. The CC turned itself into a state college and has tripled in size and the University has as well. They do a lot of medical research which is great (when done right), I just wish they weren't benefiting from both cash from student loans coming in and taxpayer funds. Isn't that like double-dipping?
The tripple dipping is almost over. The Government is tightening up on research grants to things that actually make logical sense to research. They just about ask for particular things to be researched these days.
Trouble is getting your health insurance to actually pay for the specific therapies that most likely will work.

Having a genetic profile completed on myself has been a hoot. Found out about a lot of things. My wife is totally geeked out with it. She is conducting her own research into it all. Nothing really in the way of new information for me...but every relative of mine that died already was listed in the genes. Bald, heart disease/circulatory disease, and diabetes. Let's not forget the alcoholism gene.
And apparently I can have all the coffee and tea I wish. I metabolize the caffeine well and it has little effect on me. (Duh...knew that I can drink a lot of it and not have an issue)

But back on topic...
School loans used to be a good thing. Now they are a huge trap for the Government to really keep you under control.

New statistics have come out and apparently guys aren't going to college these days but women are. Guys who do go are not likely to complete their degrees. Women are.

What this means is that there are going to be a lot of educated women in debt and unless they are willing to settle for an uneducated husband they won't get one.
 
I'm curious why you kick yourself for not completing college, if you don't mind my asking? It sounds like you had a good paying job.

And thanks for sharing about your kids. There are other options so I'm glad to hear not everyone goes straight to the student loan route.
There's a difference between getting a job and having a career. Four years after I dropped out I was laid off with a new wife, mortgage, and a child on the way and from that point on I was never able to afford to go back to college and pick up where I left off.

While still single, I tried going to community college while I was working that job. Trying to keep up with my studies while working a full-time job with day and midnight shifts was an incredible challenge, not to mention having two roommates that liked to do their share of partying. When I worked days, I missed an entire week of classes every month and when I was working midnights I could barely stay awake and concentration was extremely poor. Even though I managed to pick up my AA it was only by the skin of my teeth and my GPA suffered horribly.

On a side note, one of the things I learned from that job was the damage a union can do to a person's work ethic. During the four years that I worked in the mine, I was also a member of the United Steel Worker's Union.

When I first started working there, I believed that when I agreed to the terms of my hire that meant that I did my best to earn what I agreed to. I stayed busy and that didn't go well with my union brothers and sisters. They labeled me a brown-noser and butt sucker because I actually worked and sometimes forgot about the time, working through break periods or lunch breaks. They encouraged stealing from the company and even applauded those that got away with it to the point of being willing to walk off the job to defend an employee and negotiate his job back when he got caught and fired.

By the time I was laid off, the pressure had got me and I leaned to be more like them. It took me two to three years afterwards to regain the work ethic I once had so I could actually become valuable as an employee again. Although I understand their importance and why they are needed sometimes, I also believe they, like our government, have lost sight of their purpose and my experience gave me a real sour taste for union shops.
 
Work and school at the same time is really tough even for a single person.

Trying to support a family and go to school and get decent grades is a sure fire ticket to dying young. (At least you feel that way)

An education is a stepping stone. It's a foundation from which you can build upon to go high in a career field. Experience can replace an education but it takes longer to get. The two things, education and experience, at the same time really can advance someone in a career field instantly.
Computer programming and data management and IT fields this is especially true. Ongoing education is crucial in this field.

CNC engineering this also holds true. (Robotics)

But some fields don't require ongoing education. As a construction electrician I find myself far above my peers as I have retained the knowledge of the classes from the papermill School...(everyone graduates regardless of competency)

Some schools are worthless but have students that have graduated. There's one in town we won't hire anyone out of. The graduates have no skills to accomplish basic tasks.

What I find amazing (although I shouldn't) is that many guys show up wanting the pay of a journeyman electrician but want nothing to do with the skills and competencies needed to actually own the title... and yet feel they are entitled to the wages.
 
The tripple dipping is almost over. The Government is tightening up on research grants to things that actually make logical sense to research. They just about ask for particular things to be researched these days.
Trouble is getting your health insurance to actually pay for the specific therapies that most likely will work.

Having a genetic profile completed on myself has been a hoot. Found out about a lot of things. My wife is totally geeked out with it. She is conducting her own research into it all. Nothing really in the way of new information for me...but every relative of mine that died already was listed in the genes. Bald, heart disease/circulatory disease, and diabetes. Let's not forget the alcoholism gene.
And apparently I can have all the coffee and tea I wish. I metabolize the caffeine well and it has little effect on me. (Duh...knew that I can drink a lot of it and not have an issue)

But back on topic...
School loans used to be a good thing. Now they are a huge trap for the Government to really keep you under control.

New statistics have come out and apparently guys aren't going to college these days but women are. Guys who do go are not likely to complete their degrees. Women are.

What this means is that there are going to be a lot of educated women in debt and unless they are willing to settle for an uneducated husband they won't get one.
Heart disease runs in my mom's side of the family I believe. On a lighter note I think I have the "cat lady" gene. Another stray cat showed up in my backyard and he's coming back more often. :sad

About the statistics, I would agree but I'm not sure its really a new thing. In my family my dad and brother's never finished their education, but the women did and even have multiple degrees. Dad and brothers have all felt at some point that not having a degree held them back, but were still able to hold good jobs. And I can't say the women are any better off for having degrees. So I'd be willing to "settle" for a non-degree'd husband as long as he was actually willing to work for a living.
One scary thing about this socialism, "universal basic income" stuff that is trending is that it seems to be supporting the idea that you can choose not to work.
 
When I first started working there, I believed that when I agreed to the terms of my hire that meant that I did my best to earn what I agreed to. I stayed busy and that didn't go well with my union brothers and sisters. They labeled me a brown-noser and butt sucker because I actually worked and sometimes forgot about the time, working through break periods or lunch breaks. They encouraged stealing from the company and even applauded those that got away with it to the point of being willing to walk off the job to defend an employee and negotiate his job back when he got caught and fired.

By the time I was laid off, the pressure had got me and I leaned to be more like them. It took me two to three years afterwards to regain the work ethic I once had so I could actually become valuable as an employee again. Although I understand their importance and why they are needed sometimes, I also believe they, like our government, have lost sight of their purpose and my experience gave me a real sour taste for union shops.
Yikes, but I think that's pretty common among unions. I know some teachers that aren't in the union because they see a clear difference between the "do only what's required" union teachers and the others who love their jobs no matter what.

I'm struggling with a similar change in work ethic for 2 reasons -
  1. I liked the type of marketing work I did before I was laid off but now marketing is all search engines and social media networks which is so boring, pointless and changes every time the big tech companies figure out how to make more money and the expense of user privacy.
  2. This place has a workaholic mentality. The opposite of your situation, its like they believe work will save them. I've worked overtime before but here its like its mandatory and most of the time because of poor planning, fixing other people's mistakes and too heavy workloads. And its not like we're succeeding, bringing in more revenue or growing. Its a race not the fail. So I find myself resisting and setting boundaries so I'm only working 8 hours a day and no more. I don't like thinking or working that way because its like I'm just watching the clock and not engaged in the work.
 
I think experience is just as good as certified. Getting paid while learning on the job is better than getting a debt and paying someone to learn the same thing. Start at the bottom and work your way up.
 
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I think experience is just as good as certified. Getting paid while learning on the job is better than getting a debt and paying someone to learn the same thing. Start at the bottom and work your way up.
Some careers require a certain amount of schooling. Imagine going to see a doctor, surgeon, or dentist that had no schooling.

After my divorce I decided to go back to school. It was made possible for me because I qualified for some grants that helped pay for the schooling. I chose to attend a technical institute, this was before they became accredited with the college systems as they are today. The program I chose was called "Automated Systems Maintenance." It was a 2-year program that touched briefly on many facets of industrial machine design and controls including board level electronics, hard-wired motor controls, PLC controls, CNC programming, pneumatic and hydraulic design and controls, instrumentation, conduit sizing and installation, wire sizing and OCPD, technical manual writing, electrical and pneumatic blueprint/drawing reading, electrical codes such as NFPA, NEC (actually part of NFPA), and others.

What this program was designed to do was give me an introduction to help me attain a position on the maintenance team for industrial equipment. It was through this program that I got hired on our electrical assembly team to build industrial packaging equipment.

So now you know I do have a background in electrical work. With this background, when I decided to remodel this old farm house I chose to do all my own electrical system. It needed to be completely replaced. My schooling became invaluable for it allowed me to understand how to read and apply the codes and apply the calculations to determine what I needed for a service entrance panel size to accommodate all my branch circuit loads including the lighting circuits, small appliance circuits, bathroom circuit, laundry circuit, electric water heater, electric dryer, electric range, and a 16KW electric heating system. Incidentally, I passed every inspection without issue. At one point, our inspector said that I do a better job than most contractors he worked with. It felt nice to hear that.

When I got it all done, I found that I rather enjoyed doing the work and thought I'd consider what it would take to obtain the proper licensing to do this kind of work on my own. There is a niche that needs to be filled. Ever try to hire an electrical contractor to do some minor work like rewiring just one room? It can be nearly impossible. One-day jobs are not money makers and contractors need projects that take weeks or months to complete.

I thought it would be a rewarding opportunity to consider for subsidizing my own retirement and I could offer something the community needs. It would require minimal overhead as I would refuse jobs that required major heavy equipment. It would require a journeyman license at least and then I'd have to work under a master contractor so I wouldn't be able to work for myself. I would still love to do this but at 60 years old, I don't see the value in spending the investment to obtain the proper licensing anymore.

The last time I checked, to obtain a journeyman license in MN requires a minimum of two years classroom training (my previous training and career does not qualify) followed by a minimum of two years documented hands-on training in the field. And that only qualifies me to take the exam to achieve a journeyman license.

After all of that, I would still not be legally qualified to freelance myself as an electrician. Any work I did would have to be under the umbrella of a licensed master electrician. To obtain a master's license requires an additional two years of documented hands-on design and layout of projects and then I could be qualified to take the exam. If I passed the exam I could be awarded the master's license.

The whole point is, in some fields one must have both book knowledge and practical experience before he/she can legally do the work. I've witnessed first-hand what can happen when one doesn't have both. I do not have a license. All of my experience comes from working my way up through my company starting with electrical assembly to field service technician to service adviser to electrical designer and now to project application engineer.

When I was working as an electrical designer we hired a person with an EE degree from a rather well-known area college. I can honestly say that when I had a question regarding electronics, he was my go-to guy. He was sharp as a tac - booksmart that is. But, he lacked practical experience and had an extremely difficult time applying all of his knowledge to our equipment designs. As a result he struggled and I actually had to help him a lot. Eventually we let him go because he just wasn't cutting it.
 
Some careers require a certain amount of schooling. Imagine going to see a doctor, surgeon, or dentist that had no schooling.

After my divorce I decided to go back to school. It was made possible for me because I qualified for some grants that helped pay for the schooling. I chose to attend a technical institute, this was before they became accredited with the college systems as they are today. The program I chose was called "Automated Systems Maintenance." It was a 2-year program that touched briefly on many facets of industrial machine design and controls including board level electronics, hard-wired motor controls, PLC controls, CNC programming, pneumatic and hydraulic design and controls, instrumentation, conduit sizing and installation, wire sizing and OCPD, technical manual writing, electrical and pneumatic blueprint/drawing reading, electrical codes such as NFPA, NEC (actually part of NFPA), and others.

What this program was designed to do was give me an introduction to help me attain a position on the maintenance team for industrial equipment. It was through this program that I got hired on our electrical assembly team to build industrial packaging equipment.

So now you know I do have a background in electrical work. With this background, when I decided to remodel this old farm house I chose to do all my own electrical system. It needed to be completely replaced. My schooling became invaluable for it allowed me to understand how to read and apply the codes and apply the calculations to determine what I needed for a service entrance panel size to accommodate all my branch circuit loads including the lighting circuits, small appliance circuits, bathroom circuit, laundry circuit, electric water heater, electric dryer, electric range, and a 16KW electric heating system. Incidentally, I passed every inspection without issue. At one point, our inspector said that I do a better job than most contractors he worked with. It felt nice to hear that.

When I got it all done, I found that I rather enjoyed doing the work and thought I'd consider what it would take to obtain the proper licensing to do this kind of work on my own. There is a niche that needs to be filled. Ever try to hire an electrical contractor to do some minor work like rewiring just one room? It can be nearly impossible. One-day jobs are not money makers and contractors need projects that take weeks or months to complete.

I thought it would be a rewarding opportunity to consider for subsidizing my own retirement and I could offer something the community needs. It would require minimal overhead as I would refuse jobs that required major heavy equipment. It would require a journeyman license at least and then I'd have to work under a master contractor so I wouldn't be able to work for myself. I would still love to do this but at 60 years old, I don't see the value in spending the investment to obtain the proper licensing anymore.

The last time I checked, to obtain a journeyman license in MN requires a minimum of two years classroom training (my previous training and career does not qualify) followed by a minimum of two years documented hands-on training in the field. And that only qualifies me to take the exam to achieve a journeyman license.

After all of that, I would still not be legally qualified to freelance myself as an electrician. Any work I did would have to be under the umbrella of a licensed master electrician. To obtain a master's license requires an additional two years of documented hands-on design and layout of projects and then I could be qualified to take the exam. If I passed the exam I could be awarded the master's license.

The whole point is, in some fields one must have both book knowledge and practical experience before he/she can legally do the work. I've witnessed first-hand what can happen when one doesn't have both. I do not have a license. All of my experience comes from working my way up through my company starting with electrical assembly to field service technician to service adviser to electrical designer and now to project application engineer.

When I was working as an electrical designer we hired a person with an EE degree from a rather well-known area college. I can honestly say that when I had a question regarding electronics, he was my go-to guy. He was sharp as a tac - booksmart that is. But, he lacked practical experience and had an extremely difficult time applying all of his knowledge to our equipment designs. As a result he struggled and I actually had to help him a lot. Eventually we let him go because he just wasn't cutting it.
You can test out of classes at many schools....or buy a supervising contractor (you become a sub contractor....their license your work)
 
A co-worker is putting his son through Harvard to become a doctor at $60,000 a year. He says schooling for his son will cost just under a million....

That's crazy... Talk about taking on college debt. I can't even wrap my mind around that other than to say our economy is driven by debt, not goods and is the reason for inflation.
 
A co-worker is putting his son through Harvard to become a doctor at $60,000 a year. He says schooling for his son will cost just under a million....

That's crazy... Talk about taking on college debt. I can't even wrap my mind around that other than to say our economy is driven by debt, not goods and is the reason for inflation.
Goods... AKA commodities aren't rising that fast except for fluctuations in supply and demand. Services however are skyrocketing as the price of labor is rising really high and productivity goes flat or down.
 
Goods... AKA commodities aren't rising that fast except for fluctuations in supply and demand. Services however are skyrocketing as the price of labor is rising really high and productivity goes flat or down.
Yes, but the monetization of data surpassed commodities if I heard that right, and the private and public of monetizing, repacking and selling of consumer debt for profit is a lucrative industry which before the housing bubble crashed outperformed commodities.

Put it this way... If the pork belly industry went down it would not create a recession. When the profits from consumer debt runs its course ahead of inflation, the machine resets.
 
You want to talk about stagnant wages consider farm crops.

I began my foray into farming back in 1994. The value of wheat that year was roughly $3.50 per bushel and soybeans were around $5.00 per bushel. From 1994 to 2006 the value of those two crops remained virtually the same, maybe fluctuating a little up or down along the way. That's 12 years with the same pay while the cost of my seed, fertilizer, fuel, and parts continued to rise.

That's not all. One day, just for fun, I decided to do some research to see how the price of these two commodities changed over the years. I went back as far as 1970. Guess what I learned? The value of these two crops in 1970 was virtually the same as they were in 1994 when I first started farming and in 2006. That's 36 years with the same pay while the costs for fuel, fertilizer, seed, and so forth continued to rise.

Now, let's look at the minimum wage over that time period. The minimum wage in 1970 was $1.60 per hour growing to $5.15 per hour by 2006, an increase of approximately 3.25 times.
 
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