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Talk About A Idiot

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Lewis

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Today I will start with a three-part sermon on: Jesus was HIV-positive," South African Pastor Xola Skosana recently said in a Sunday church service.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote
Pastor Xola Skosana

The best gift we can give to people who are HIV-positive is to help de-stigmatise Aids ”

End Quote Pastor Xola Skosana

* Zuma reveals he is HIV-negative
* SA vows to treat babies with HIV

The words initially stunned his congregation in Cape Town's Khayelitsha township into silence, and then set tongues wagging in churches across the country.

Some Christians have been outraged, saying he is portraying Jesus as sexually promiscuous.

HIV is mainly transmitted through sex, but can also be spread through needle-sharing, contaminated blood, pregnancy and breastfeeding.

However, as Pastor Skosana told those gathered in the modest Luhlaza High School hall for his weekly services, in many parts of the Bible Jesus put himself in the position of the destitute, the sick and the marginalised.

"Wherever you open the scriptures Jesus puts himself in the shoes of people who experience brokenness. Isaiah 53, for example, clearly paints a picture of Jesus who takes upon himself the infirmities and the brokenness of humanity," he told the BBC.

He is also quick to emphasise that he is using the metaphor to highlight the danger of the HIV/Aids pandemic, which still carries a stigma in South Africa's townships.

"Of course, there's no scientific evidence that Jesus had the HI virus in his bloodstream," says the pastor, whose non-denominational Hope for Life Ministry is part of a growing charismatic movement in South Africa.

"The best gift we can give to people who are HIV-positive is to help de-stigmatise Aids and create an environment where they know God is not against them, he's not ashamed of them."
'Mock Christ'
An HIV test being carried out in Pretoria in December 2009 There is often reluctance to find out one's HIV status

But Pastor Mike Bele, who officiates at the Nomzamo Baptist Church in nearby Gugulethu, said most clergy in Khayelitsha and other Cape Town townships are strongly opposed to associating Jesus with HIV.

"The subject of my Jesus being HIV-positive is a scathing matter," he says.

"I believe no anointed leader with a sound mind about the scriptures and the role of Christ in our lives would deliberately drag the name of Christ to the ground."

For Pastor Bele portraying Jesus as HIV-positive means he becomes part of the problem, not the solution.

"The pastor needs to explain how it came about for him to bring Christ to our level, when Christ is supreme and is God," he says.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote
Reverend Siyabulela Gidi

Pastor Skosana has fortunately got the country talking”

End Quote Siyabulela Gidi

"There is a concern that non-believers would mock Christ and try to generalise Christ as opposed to the powerful force we believe him to be."

But Pastor Skosana, who has been in the ministry for 24 years and lost two sisters to Aids, argues that religious leaders have to play a much bigger role in combating the spread of the pandemic in South Africa where more than 5.7 million people live with the virus - more than in any other country.

And he concluded the last of his three-part sermon by taking an HIV test in front of the congregation - after which 100 churchgoers followed his example.

"The message to the church is that it is not enough for us to give people food privately and give them groceries, we must create an environment that's empowering because most people who are HIV-positive will not necessarily die of Aids-related sickness but more of a broken heart, out of rejection," he says.
'Fear and ignorance'

Amid the controversy, Reverend Siyabulela Gidi, the director of South African Council of Churches in the Western Cape, has come out in support of Pastor Skosana, saying his standpoint is theologically correct

"What Pastor Skosana is clearly saying is that Christ at this point in time would be on the side of the people who are HIV-positive - people who are being sidelined by the very church that is attacking him," the Anglican priest says.

"Pastor Skosana has fortunately got the country talking, he's got the world talking and that is what theology is all about."

Outside religious circles, Pastor Skosana has also received support from Aids activists.

"The pastor's sermon takes away the stigma that HIV is a sin and that it's God's punishment," says Vuyiseka Dubula, general secretary of the powerful Aids lobby group Treatment Action Campaign.

"To associate Jesus with HIV is powerful, particularly for those who go to church. Now people are starting to think: 'If Jesus could be HIV-positive who am I not to have it even if I go to church?'"

Jan Glazewski, a professor of marine and environmental law at the University of Cape Town who has been HIV-positive for 25 years, wrote in a letter to the Cape Times newspaper that he identified with the idea that God was on the side of the poor and marginalised.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-11575773
 
I actually sort of agree with him....

He stresses that he is not saying scientifically that Jesus was HIV-positive, but metaphorically "Wherever you open the scriptures Jesus puts himself in the shoes of people who experience brokenness. Isaiah 53, for example, clearly paints a picture of Jesus who takes upon himself the infirmities and the brokenness of humanity,".

I can agree with this. I think it's helpful given this attitude:

"The subject of my Jesus being HIV-positive is a scathing matter," he says.

"I believe no anointed leader with a sound mind about the scriptures and the role of Christ in our lives would deliberately drag the name of Christ to the ground." Pastor Mike Bele


Sounds as if there are serious issues of how HIV positive people are looked at, if a pastor of a church believes that equating Jesus with those with HIV is deliberately dragging the name of Christ to the ground.


 
I agree with Handy. Even though I think it would be even better if South Africa was to actually do better to help provide information about Safe sex and stop telling the lies about birth control.
 
I agree with Handy. Even though I think it would be even better if South Africa was to actually do better to help provide information about Safe sex and stop telling the lies about birth control.

It's not just about safe sex and BC, but they need to seriously address sexual education. Men there think that raping virgins will rid them of aids. I have read countless articles about infants and toddlers being raped, it's horrific.
 
It's just more humanism, Lewis.

Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke 9:23
 
It's just more humanism, Lewis.

Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke 9:23

It's humanism to not hate people with hiv?
 
How about this pastor begin preaching the righteousness that is imputed to us as believers, and how Jesus was absolutely sinless, and that He is our healer and friend? How about preaching that we must be holy as He is holy?

Hard?


That is what should come from a responsible pulpit, as well as the people before it. The message of love is Jesus, who lived a sinless life and had no guile, and didn't recoil from lepers--and He was never tainted with illness. Lies don't help the MESSAGE--they hinder it!
 
It's humanism to not hate people with hiv?

When you don't give the person the whole counsel of God on the matter of sin, then you are a party to their death. I sure wouldn't hate anyone because they had a disease.. nor do I know any believer who would, although there are always exceptions out there. But for a "pastor" to not give the whole counsel of God is a form of self love, an unwillingness to tell the whole truth for the sake of his own skin.

But it's possible he may not know what the truth is.
 
How about this pastor begin preaching the righteousness that is imputed to us as believers, and how Jesus was absolutely sinless, and that He is our healer and friend? How about preaching that we must be holy as He is holy?

Hard?


That is what should come from a responsible pulpit, as well as the people before it. The message of love is Jesus, who lived a sinless life and had no guile, and didn't recoil from lepers--and He was never tainted with illness. Lies don't help the MESSAGE--they hinder it!

Exactly!
 
I guess I do not equate illness with sin...and I don't think Jesus ever did either.


I guess what is ruffling my feathers here a bit is the idea of "tainted with illness" as if illness is synomous with sin. "Tainted" is just a word that has a very negative connotation to me. Illness and sin do not go hand in hand, and many innocents are suffering from AIDS throughout Africa and the world.

I also do not see how this pastor is guilty of not "giving the whole counsel of God". In that he is identifying Jesus with HIV? Did Jesus not take on Himself our infimities? Is HIV or AIDS not under the cross?

Can there possibly still be people out there who think that HIV or AIDS is a judgment of God, rather than an illness?

Hopefully there are not people who think that anyone with HIV or AIDS "deserve" it.
 
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I guess I do not equate illness with sin...and I don't think Jesus ever did either.

in some cases aids is aquired from sin, but that shouldn't mean the afflicted should be rejected like that. we all need jesus and a savior.

none of us hasnt put ourselves in a pickle and the lord delivered.
 
Who among us is without sin, anyway?

And, didn't Jesus take on our sin? As well as our illnesses?

Illness = Sin :shame

Not in my book, and not in the Bible either.
 
Who among us is without sin, anyway?

And, didn't Jesus take on our sin? As well as our illnesses?

Illness = Sin :shame

Not in my book, and not in the Bible either.

unprotected and illicit sex with an aids afflicted person. and outside of marriage.

that means sin. sometimes our actions do have physical consequences.
is it forgiveable, yes

not all aids victims are like that
 
I guess I do not equate illness with sin...and I don't think Jesus ever did either.


I guess what is ruffling my feathers here a bit is the idea of "tainted with illness" as if illness is synomous with sin. "Tainted" is just a word that has a very negative connotation to me. Illness and sin do not go hand in hand, and many innocents are suffering from AIDS throughout Africa and the world.

I used the word, 'tainted' simply because in Jesus' day, lepers were the pariahs, or outcasts of society, and any association with a leper tainted a person. Jesus surely didn't hold to that view, and He went boldly into their enclaves and ministered to them and healed them and touched them. These people, just as how many view the AIDS-afflicted, were considered unclean and contagious.
 
in some cases aids is aquired from sin, but that shouldn't mean the afflicted should be rejected like that. we all need jesus and a savior.

none of us hasnt put ourselves in a pickle and the lord delivered.

AIDS may be contracted in innocence, but there is sin somewhere down the line. Who is passing it on? Certainly not chaste, married people.
 
I used the word, 'tainted' simply because in Jesus' day, lepers were the pariahs, or outcasts of society, and any association with a leper tainted a person. Jesus surely didn't hold to that view, and He went boldly into their enclaves and ministered to them and healed them and touched them. These people, just as how many view the AIDS-afflicted, were considered unclean and contagious.

And I think that is just what the Pastor is getting at, by stating that Jesus, metaphorically and he does stress that this is metaphor not science, is HIV positive. That He identifies with those afflicted with HIV and AIDS and take on Himself these illnesses.

I do agree that somewhere down the line, HIV is spread via sinful activity, but that doesn't make innocent sufferers of the diesease any less innocent. Nor does it make the one who is suffereing from AIDS any less deserving of compassion and understanding.

As was mentioned before, there are some terrible myths about AIDS in African nations and if the Pastor, who knows his flock better than I, believes that helping people see Jesus as identifying with those who have the virus will help combat the myths and lies, more power to him. We here in the states proclaim all the time that Jesus took on our infirmities, so how is this any different?
 
unprotected and illicit sex with an aids afflicted person. and outside of marriage.

that means sin. sometimes our actions do have physical consequences.
is it forgiveable, yes

not all aids victims are like that

That would fall under...

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
 
And I think that is just what the Pastor is getting at, by stating that Jesus, metaphorically and he does stress that this is metaphor not science, is HIV positive. That He identifies with those afflicted with HIV and AIDS and take on Himself these illnesses.

I do agree that somewhere down the line, HIV is spread via sinful activity, but that doesn't make innocent sufferers of the diesease any less innocent. Nor does it make the one who is suffereing from AIDS any less deserving of compassion and understanding.

As was mentioned before, there are some terrible myths about AIDS in African nations and if the Pastor, who knows his flock better than I, believes that helping people see Jesus as identifying with those who have the virus will help combat the myths and lies, more power to him. We here in the states proclaim all the time that Jesus took on our infirmities, so how is this any different?

There is a thin line here. Jesus took our infirmities, but He doesn't wear them.

Isaiah 38:17
Behold, it was for my peace that I had intense bitterness; but You have loved back my life from the pit of corruption and nothingness, for You have cast all my sins behind Your back.
 
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