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Talk to a JW: NWT

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And only 11 Bible translations which use “Over all creation†(or its equivalent).

“Firstborn OVER†is unscriptural, ungrammatical, and simply wishful thinking by some trinitarians who don’t like the literal meaning of Col. 1:15.



Yes, some (not most) trinitarian Bibles translate Col. 1:15 as “firstborn OVER all creation.†Those same Bibles, however, never use “firstborn OVER …†anywhere else in their translation!
Whether "over" or "of" is irrelevant since it is the context that determines the meaning. And what you have done, what JW's do, is completely divorce verse 15 from the two that immediately follow it:

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

The word "firstborn" also carries with it the idea of "preeminence" and all the privileges of one who is the firstborn of a family. However, there really is only one understanding of this passage, and that is trinitarian, as verses 16 and 17 immediately contradict and put to rest any notion that the Son is a created being. And that is in perfect agreement not only with John 1:1-3 and 1 Cor 8:6, but several other passages speaking of the deity of Christ and indeed best fits what the entirety of Scripture reveals about God.
 

jasoncran

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the jw's dance around the idea that jesus was worshiped. no mere angel ever received worship.or that jesus claimed what the YHWH had.
 

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the jw's dance around the idea that jesus was worshiped. no mere angel ever received worship.or that jesus claimed what the YHWH had.
Hi, Jason. Have you seen this online site that supports your allegation of the "dance" ?

History of Jehovah Witness re: Is worship of Jesus okay?

It's a brief commentary starting in 1879 quote (C.T. Russell, Watchtower Nov. 1879) and ends in recent years (1970)
(New World Translation, 1950, 1961, 1970 editions, [The NWT revised 1971 edition was changed to read, "do obeisance to" rather than "worship"])
 

jasoncran

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I was raised in the jw cult. I know that hasn't changed. somethings has.
 

Domenic

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I just left a group of Christians debating this same subject. They all had a diferent view of who Jesus is. They all had their facts. None of them would back down one inch. They could not all be right, but each had Scriptures to back their position. I was standing in the center, not carrying who was right, but what was right. I’m a writer. I write truth in the form of fiction. I took every major thing Jesus had said, and asked these people, “Is there anything Jesus said in the Bible, you think is not true?†They all agreed, everything Jesus said was true.

I wrote a one page story of Jesus walking, and talking to twelve men. I had Jesus saying some of the things these people agreed he had said. Some of the twelve in the story with him, questioned what he had said. It showed both of the groups of people were wrong defending their side.
End result? I was banned for life. I would post it here, but I like this forum, and like the last one…there are good Christians here.
I don’t think this subject helps us serve our God. It is better to do what Jesus says, and leave all the stuff like this for God to tell us when we have grown more.
I have been a student of Gods word all my life. I figured some years ago, it would take me ten million years to know .01 percent of who , and what God is. I’m only 77, so I have a long way to go.
 
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I just left a group of Christians debating this same subject. They all had a diferent view of who Jesus is. They all had their facts. None of them would back down one inch. They could not all be right, but each had Scriptures to back their position. I was standing in the center, not carrying who was right, but what was right. I’m a writer. I write truth in the form of fiction. I took every major thing Jesus had said, and asked these people, “Is there anything Jesus said in the Bible, you think is not true?” They all agreed, everything Jesus said was true.

I wrote a one page story of Jesus walking, and talking to twelve men. I had Jesus saying some of the things these people agreed he had said. Some of the twelve in the story with him, questioned what he had said. It showed both of the groups of people were wrong defending their side.
End result? I was banned for life. I would post it here, but I like this forum, and like the last one…there are good Christians here.
I don’t think this subject helps us serve our God. It is better to do what Jesus says, and leave all the stuff like this for God to tell us when we have grown more.
I have been a student of Gods word all my life. I figured some years ago, it would take me ten million years to know .01 percent of who , and what God is. I’m only 77, so I have a long way to go.
But what is your belief in who Jesus Christ is?
 
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the jw's dance around the idea that jesus was worshiped. no mere angel ever received worship.or that jesus claimed what the YHWH had.
“Worship”
(from one of my studies on my own blog)

The Greek word proskuneo (or proskyneo) is defined in the 1971 trinitarian United Bible Societies’ A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, p. 154: “[Proskuneo] worship; fall down and worship, kneel, bow low, fall at another’s feet.”

Even the trinitarian W. E. Vine writes in his An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 1247:
“PROSKUNEO ... to make obeisance, do reverence to (from pros, towards, and kuneo, to kiss), is the most frequent word rendered ‘to worship’. It is used for an act of homage or reverence (a) to God ...; (b) to Christ ...; (c) to a man, Matt. 18:26.”

“Obeisance,” of course, shows “respect, submission, or reverence” - Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary, 1961.

Noted Bible scholar J. H. Thayer defines proskuneo:

“prop. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence ... hence in the N. T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. It is used a. of homage shown to men of superior rank [position] ... Rev. 3:9 .... b. of homage rendered to God and the ascended Christ, to heavenly beings [angels]” - p. 548, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Baker Book House Publ., 1977.

Hasting’s A Dictionary of the Bible also tells us:

“Worship, both as [noun] and verb, was formerly used of reverence or honour done to men as well as to God …” - p. 941, vol. 4.

The Hebrew word most often translated “worship” in the OT is shachah, and it is usually rendered as proskuneo in the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament. Unger and White say of this word: “Shachah ... ‘to worship, prostrate oneself, bow down.’” And,

“The act of bowing down in homage done before a superior [in rank] or a ruler. Thus David ‘bowed’ himself [shachah] before Saul (1 Sam. 24:8). Sometimes it is a social or economic superior to whom one bows, as when Ruth ‘bowed’ [shachah] to the ground before Boaz (Ruth 2:10).” - Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, 1980, Thomas Nelson Publ., p. 482.

Perhaps the most famous Biblical Hebrew scholar of all, Gesenius, tells us in Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, p. 813, (#7812), ‘Shachah’:

“(1) to prostrate oneself before anyone out of honor .... Those who used this mode of salutation fell on their knees and touched the ground with the forehead ..., and this honor was not only shown to superiors, such as kings and princes, 2 Sam. 9:8; but also to equals; Gen. 23:7.”

The act described by proskuneo (or shachah) was of bowing or kneeling, and it generally indicated an act of respect and a display of one’s willingness to submit to or serve another person who occupied a superior position, regardless of his nature (somewhat similar to a salute in the military today). It was done, of course, in its very highest sense to God alone, but it was also done, in a lower sense of the same word, to kings, angels, prophets, etc. That is why proskuneo is translated “prostrated himself before” at Matt. 18:26 NASB, even though the KJV uses “worship” there. Notice how other trinitarian translations render that verse (RSV and NIV for example) where a servant “worships” [proskuneo] his master. And that is why, in the account of the man blind from birth whom Jesus healed, we see that man giving proskuneo to Jesus at John 9:38. The ASV, in a footnote for John 9:38, says,

“The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature, as here [Jesus], or to the Creator.”

At Rev. 3:9 Jesus shows the position of authority he will give to some of his human followers when he says he will make people “worship before thy feet.” - KJV. The word used there is proskuneo! The ASV again adds this footnote:

“The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence whether paid to a creature, or the Creator.”
 

jasonc

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“Worship”
(from one of my studies on my own blog)

The Greek word proskuneo (or proskyneo) is defined in the 1971 trinitarian United Bible Societies’ A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, p. 154: “[Proskuneo] worship; fall down and worship, kneel, bow low, fall at another’s feet.”

Even the trinitarian W. E. Vine writes in his An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 1247:
“PROSKUNEO ... to make obeisance, do reverence to (from pros, towards, and kuneo, to kiss), is the most frequent word rendered ‘to worship’. It is used for an act of homage or reverence (a) to God ...; (b) to Christ ...; (c) to a man, Matt. 18:26.”

“Obeisance,” of course, shows “respect, submission, or reverence” - Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary, 1961.

Noted Bible scholar J. H. Thayer defines proskuneo:

“prop. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence ... hence in the N. T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. It is used a. of homage shown to men of superior rank [position] ... Rev. 3:9 .... b. of homage rendered to God and the ascended Christ, to heavenly beings [angels]” - p. 548, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Baker Book House Publ., 1977.

Hasting’s A Dictionary of the Bible also tells us:

“Worship, both as [noun] and verb, was formerly used of reverence or honour done to men as well as to God …” - p. 941, vol. 4.

The Hebrew word most often translated “worship” in the OT is shachah, and it is usually rendered as proskuneo in the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament. Unger and White say of this word: “Shachah ... ‘to worship, prostrate oneself, bow down.’” And,

“The act of bowing down in homage done before a superior [in rank] or a ruler. Thus David ‘bowed’ himself [shachah] before Saul (1 Sam. 24:8). Sometimes it is a social or economic superior to whom one bows, as when Ruth ‘bowed’ [shachah] to the ground before Boaz (Ruth 2:10).” - Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, 1980, Thomas Nelson Publ., p. 482.

Perhaps the most famous Biblical Hebrew scholar of all, Gesenius, tells us in Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, p. 813, (#7812), ‘Shachah’:

“(1) to prostrate oneself before anyone out of honor .... Those who used this mode of salutation fell on their knees and touched the ground with the forehead ..., and this honor was not only shown to superiors, such as kings and princes, 2 Sam. 9:8; but also to equals; Gen. 23:7.”

The act described by proskuneo (or shachah) was of bowing or kneeling, and it generally indicated an act of respect and a display of one’s willingness to submit to or serve another person who occupied a superior position, regardless of his nature (somewhat similar to a salute in the military today). It was done, of course, in its very highest sense to God alone, but it was also done, in a lower sense of the same word, to kings, angels, prophets, etc. That is why proskuneo is translated “prostrated himself before” at Matt. 18:26 NASB, even though the KJV uses “worship” there. Notice how other trinitarian translations render that verse (RSV and NIV for example) where a servant “worships” [proskuneo] his master. And that is why, in the account of the man blind from birth whom Jesus healed, we see that man giving proskuneo to Jesus at John 9:38. The ASV, in a footnote for John 9:38, says,

“The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature, as here [Jesus], or to the Creator.”

At Rev. 3:9 Jesus shows the position of authority he will give to some of his human followers when he says he will make people “worship before thy feet.” - KJV. The word used there is proskuneo! The ASV again adds this footnote:

“The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence whether paid to a creature, or the Creator.”
the jw don't allow one to read their bible. in fact they preach ONLY THE 144 THOUSAND Have the power to interpret the nwt. are you one of them? I know I was raised in this cult. it hasn't changed a lot. they for making such claims to the bible as their own via Jehovah are often wrong. I remember them teaching me and indoctrinating me and the whole cult not to give blood and also don't vote nor go to college or also save as the battle of armagedon would occur in 2000.what year is it?
 
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