The Absurdity of Losing Salvation

[AVBunyan]

If You Believe You Can Lose Your Salvation…
It Is Possible You May Have Missed Calvary

Sorry, it is a little long but bear with it please...I am not wild about long posts but I don't have the time to scale it down right now.

There is much talk today about losing salvation. The issue is not that can one lose his salvation but the truth of the matter is the real issue is they don’t know what really happened at Calvary. These people don’t understand at all the doctrine of salvation.

The heart of the matter is how is the sinner brought back into the proper standing so that he can have fellowship with God. To put it more simply, how is a man saved today. Man’s dilemma is how can he become righteous before God. In order for the sinner to spend eternity with God he must be holy before God (Heb. 12:14; Hab. 1:13). The sinner has to be reconciled and justified before God in order to spend eternity with God.

Part I. Let’s first look at the condition of the unsaved man. He is lost (II Cor. 4:3), having no hope (Eph. 2:12), separated (Isa. 59:2), unregenerate (Titus 3:5), darkened Eph. 4:18, unprofitable (Rom. 3:12), and under the wrath of God (John 3:36), and in the flesh Rom. 8:8. He is stuck in the mud big time. A dead man cannot pull himself up out of the miry muck for he is dead!

Part II. Without going into all the doctrine of salvation let’s just look at what God did to the sinner. There were several things that God did to bring the sinner into the family of God. By a supernatural work of God the sinner was reconciled to God (Rom. 5:10), made righteous (Rom. 3:22), justified (Rom. 3:24), and redeemed (Gal. 3:13). Then as a result some more things happened: the saint was sealed (Eph. 2:6), seated (Eph. 2:6), saved Eph. 2:8, adopted (Eph. 1:5), quickened (Eph. 2:5), circumcised (Col. 2: 11), raised up (Eph. 2:6), forgiven (Col. 1:14), blessed (Eph. 1:3), accepted (Eph. 1:6), sanctified (Col. 1:30), put into the body of Christ and made to be bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh (Eph. 5:30) and glorified (Rom. 8:30). This is quite a work, I might say.

Now the above fourteen things (and probably more) happened instantaneously when God saved the sinner. So, the people who say they can lose their salvation are saying that they or God can or will undo all of Part II and go back to Part I. Now let’s see how one can lose their salvation. When we talk of one losing their salvation we are talking about the person in Part II. We are talking about the one who lived after Calvary and before the Tribulation period who had at least 14 different miraculous things done to him regarding his salvation. Instead of listing all the verses you have used in the past I will just list where they are found. When we talk about one losing his salvation we are not directing it to:

1. Jews or Gentiles under the Old Testament Law before Calvary (Gen. - Mal.).

2. Jews and Gentile during the gospels, which basically fall into the first category of being before Calvary (Gospels).

3. Unbelieving Jews Paul was directing Hebrews 3 and 5 to (Hebrews).

4. The 12 tribes scattered abroad in James, which doctrinally deals with the tribulation period (Hebrews thru Revelation).

5. Unbelieving Jew or Gentile during the Tribulation period – primarily the book of Revelation.

Most of the verses you use to try and prove a saint can lose his salvation in this age of grace are found in the above books to in Paul’s epistles (except Hebrews of Paul wrote Hebrews).

The person we want you to show to us that can lose their salvation is that blood-bought redeemed sinner after Calvary where Christ died for their sins.

Let’s look at this – we have a sinner saved by grace today and falls into the Part II category (redeemed, saved, regenerated, sealed, etc.). At some point in his life he loses his salvation based upon some mysterious way that you have conjured up (whatever that may be). I am assuming at that point he becomes unreconciled, made unrighteous, unjustified, unredeemed. Then as a result of his “unpardonable sin†or whatever criteria you have dreamed up for one to lose his salvation he becomes unsealed, unseated, unsaved, unadopted, unquickened, uncircumcised, unraised, unforgiven, unblessed, unaccepted, unsanctified, unglorified again, and finally, kicked out of Christ’s physical body! In other words this saint loses his salvation by doing something or a bunch of things??? And then all that God did for him (Part II) gets undone! The poor ex-saint is back to Part I again!

Let’s carry this further – now the poor, lost, ex-saint gets saved again!!! Now God reapplies all of Part II and all is ok – but then he blows it again and all is undone again and he is back to Part I!!! And then he repents and he’s back to Part II! Does anyone see how ridiculous this is getting? If you can give me one example of this happening in the scriptures I might listen. I know you will say that once he loses it he can never get it back again – yes, real neat system you have there.

The problem (or blessing) is this – the sinner was reconciled by the DEATH OF CHRIST. The sinner was JUSTIFIED BY THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST and made RIGHTEOUS and SEALED UNTILL the DAY OF REDEMPTION – DONE FOREVER and nothing you can do can undo that!

Now, you can show me where a man before Calvary does not have this blessing and that a man in the tribulation does not have this blessing but you can’t show me in Paul’s epistles during this age of grace after Calvary that a man can fall out of what God put him into today!

If you still think you can lose your salvation then you are doing something to lose your salvation and you are not trusting Christ to keep you. You say, “I believed on Christ and he will do his part but I have to do my part or keep from doing something that will cause me to fall away.†Then if that is the case then you are still trusting yourself to endure to the end so in reality you are not trusting Christ at all you are counting on you to hold out till the end, which is, works salvation, which is a sure ticket to hell.

Instead of trying to prove you can lose it why not spend some time seeing what really took place at Calvary and then you would not be spending time trying to show people you can lose it.

May God bless

 

[Guest]

AVBunyan,

That was a very long dissertation of a particular view, an interpretation of Scripture.
I have but ONE question for you?

Did God keep Adam from sinning, from falling from Grace, for departing his union, communion with God?

 

[Heidi]

AVBunyan,

That was a very long dissertation of a particular view, an interpretation of Scripture.
I have but ONE question for you?

Did God keep Adam from sinning, from falling from Grace, for departing his union, communion with God?

You can always find your answers in scripture. Romans 11:32 answers this: "For God bound all men over to disobedience so that he can have mercy on them all. That's a true statement.

 

[Guest]

Heidi,

You can always find your answers in scripture. Romans 11:32 answers this: "For God bound all men over to disobedience so that he can have mercy on them all. That's a true statement.

It does not quite answer the question as the possibilities are still open as to how and why God consigned all to disobedience.
However, If I can assume that you believe Adam was created in God's Image and possessed a free will and created to be a communal creature, then it was Adam's choice to depart, to sin, to disobey.
Furthermore, if that is true, then most, if not all of what AvBunyan wrote is unscriptural and not accurate at all.
His whole statement of both the redemption of mankind and the salvation of ones soul is completely out of alignment with the creation of man. There is no correlation between the creation and purpose of our existance and what we are commanded to do relative to being IN Christ. It also has no correlation between the fall and redemption. It is mostly confluent.

 

[AVBunyan]

AVBunyan, Did God keep Adam from sinning, from falling from Grace, for departing his union, communion with God?

You are tryng to force Adam into this age of grace - will not work.
Adam was not in the body of Christ as the saint is today.

What is true of the saved saint was not true of Adam and vice versa. Keep the ages and doctrines for these two ages separate.

God bless

 

[francisdesales]

You are tryng to force Adam into this age of grace - will not work.
Adam was not in the body of Christ as the saint is today.

What is true of the saved saint was not true of Adam and vice versa. Keep the ages and doctrines for these two ages separate.

God bless

I respectfully disagree with you.

BEFORE Adam sinned, he was without sin, without guile. He was FULL of God's grace within the Garden.

He didn't need to be saved BEFORE he sinned.

It is to this original state that we are being remade into after Baptism.

Why else do you think Paul calls Jesus the Second Adam? Jesus is the pioneer of the New Creation - but it is a re-creation to the original pre-original sin man.

Regards

 

[notapseudonym]

I would like to begin by throwing a few things out:

(a) Salvation: from the Latin -salvatio- act of saving, state of being saved

(b) If we are discussing salvation, and whether or not it can be lost: why did/does the human need and is offered salvation?

(c) Why salvation on the cross through a God-man?

(d) finally do/can human acts compromise our salvation?

*****************************
(a) The act of saving, or state of being saved: May be open to discussion on what "saved" means, I understand it to mean the ability to perfect human nature so that we may be perfectly united with Christ/God in the afterlife. Anyways this is open for discussion.
The Latin implies it is 1, an act, and 2 a state. That Salvation was first earned for us through the Passion and Death of our Beloved Lord and Savior, and that we are now capable of entering in to this Sacred mystery and capable of reaping the benefits of what the Master has sown.

(b) Why is salvation necessary: I believe it is important to know and analyize Salvation History to fully answer this. (and even then God surely knows more than I)
Genesis begins with Adam and Eve, created in the image and likeness of God and deemed to be "Very Good." They were then presented with a test, which we all know they failed. Here the human fell into sin, a sin that would effect all humans, a fallen nature was bestowed upon us. Because of this sin all humans were now subject to pain, labor, and death.
Fast forward many hundreds of years (extremely brief for examining all of Salvation history eh?) An angel appears to a young girl and asks her to be mother of God. She says Yes.
Thirty-ish years later we find Christ in the Garden asking God to allow the cup to pass from Him and then He prays that not His will but Your Will be done.
Notice Adam made a choice: fallen nature and need for salvation resulted.
Mary made a choice: thus was born the Savior
Finally Christ made a decision: He would undergo the horrors necessary to pay the price of our salvation in order to redeem the human race.

(c) very briefly since this is getting long and it is late: The human race was fallen and the remedy could only be offered through a human but the burden and price was so great only God could repay it therefore the Hypostatic union occurred and the human and divine natures were united.

(d) We saw that Adam, Mary, and Christ made a desicion, they exercised the power of their will for these momentous decisions of salvation history. W/o Adam's there would be no need of Salvation, w/o Mary's we could still be waiting for Christ, and w/o Christ's salvation would not be possible.
We saw Adam lose salvation, however he could be redeemed, through choice. It thus follows Salvation is somehow/ somewhat tied to our wills and our choices.

I apologize for the length and thank you for reading.

 

[biblecatholic]

notapseudonym,francisdesales

AMEN

 

[Diolectic]

Let’s carry this further – now the poor, lost, ex-saint gets saved again!!!

That is where you get us who are not OASA wrong, One does not get saved again or resaved.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If you still think you can lose your salvation then you are doing something to lose your salvation and you are not trusting Christ to keep you. You say, “I believed on Christ and he will do his part but I have to do my part or keep from doing something that will cause me to fall away.â€Â

The one on the verge of falling away does not know it until it is to late, and then the one does not care that he has fallen away because of the hardness of his heart.

Instead of trying to prove you can lose it why not spend some time seeing what really took place at Calvary and then you would not be spending time trying to show people you can lose it.

Tell that to paul with all his warnings:
1Tim 1:19-20 having faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away, made shipwreck concerning the faith,
:20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan, that they may be taught not to blaspheme.
And Christ Himself:
Rev 3:3 Then remember how you received and heard, and keep, and repent. If, then, you do not watch, I will come upon you like a thief and you will not at all know what hour I come upon you.
&
Rev 3:11 Behold, I am coming quickly. Hold onto what you have that no one take your crown.

 

[jgredline]

I just posted this in another thread and it seems there are two going on together.... :roll:

I will try and keep my post short so bare with me....

If you are are ''Truly'' Born Again, you ''Will'' Persevere to the End.....
John 6:38-40
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

Here Jesus says that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.
He says that he will raise that person up at the last day, which, in this context of believing in the Son and having eternal life, clearly means that Jesus will raise that person up to eternal life with him (not just raise him up to be judged and condemned)....
Everyone who truly believes in Christ will remain a Christian up to the day of final resurrection into the blessings of life in the presence of God. Another thing....., this text emphasizes that Jesus does the will of the Father, which is that he should ''lose nothing of all that he has given me'' ...So if you belong to Jesus, he will not Loose you......


John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

This is one of the clearest statements in the Bible that one who believes in Jesus for salvation will never be lost. Believers sin and stumble, but Jesus as the perfect Shepherd loses none of His flock


Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

''Condemnation'' is the ''opposite of Justification''...Simply put...If your not condemned then guess what????/You are Justified......You are one or the other...There is no middle ground



Ok....Now here is where there is confusion in reformed theology and I will address it now....I will begin it with a statement and please pay close attention....Only Those Who Persevere to the End Have Been Truly Born Again...Now there is a big misconception on OSAS....The misconception is this...There are many who profess to be born again and even preach OSAS but live like Hell...because after all, they are Saved....''Anyone'' with this mentality is not saved......I know I have been Justified and am clothed in Jesus Righteousness, but this is not an E ticket to sin...
Lets look at

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Folks who had believed in Him indicates that some paid attention to Jesus’ It is possible to ''believe'' without being born again. So by continuing to run the race in the truth of the Gospel is the sign of a true born again believer...We must each run our ''own'' race.... If one really grasps the truth of the Gospel, one would find salvation and this truth will set one free...

''Anybody'' who has been born again (justified) will persevere to the end...
''Anyone'' who says they choose to give back their salvation, has nothing to give back, because they were never justified to begin with....Nobody who is a born again believer will trade eternal life for eternal torment....Think about it.....Would a true believer give up eternity with all mighty God who is Good and Loves us beyond measure to spend eternity in Torment with Satan who hates him and wants to destroy him???? Of course not.............

 

[Guest]

AVBunyan,

You are tryng to force Adam into this age of grace - will not work.
Adam was not in the body of Christ as the saint is today.

So Adam is not the same human being as you. He was not created like you, or that you are the progeny of Adam. That in itself in unscriptural. There are very two primary elements of God's image in man that does not change, the will and that man is communal. God created man that way just so He could dwell and commune with a rational being, not an animal or some object. Most of your premise is based on the fact that man is not man. He is not the human being God created in His Image. We were created for a purpose, a purpose which was lost due to the fall, corrected by Christ for the purpose to restore that created mandate of communion between God and man.
Adam does not need to be brought into the Grace, He was in Grace from the beginning. It is we, fallen as a result of his disobedience that needed Grace again to restore mankind.

What is true of the saved saint was not true of Adam and vice versa. Keep the ages and doctrines for these two ages separate.

Only that the saved, as in redeemed, reconciled to God through Christ brought us all back to the states of Adam before his judgement of death was pronounced on mankind. We are again made eternal, as he had the potential to become, and free and communal. We can enter into a relationship with God for an eternity. You are bypassing the fall and redemption in your whole view.
You have Christ saving us from what man fell from and the reason we were created. We were saved by Christ from the condemnation of death against Adam, the bondage to that death and sin.
By keeping them separate you develop errant understandings. God gave man His revelation for a reason. So man could follow, know God's will and make sure to align his will with God's
You remove the will of man, as in God's image and that man was created to be communal, then man becomes an animal. Man does not need a manual. Revelation is superfluous, meaningless and moot.

 

[francisdesales]

If you are are ''Truly'' Born Again, you ''Will'' Persevere to the End.....

You won't know you will persevere until the end! Only looking BACKWARDS into time as we stand before our Judge and Advocate will we KNOW we were "truly" born again.

Jesus says that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.

BELIEVES in Him. PRESENT tense. Not "believed in Him 20 years ago but not anymore..." Another thing to keep in mind that JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF is "ETERNAL LIFE". He abides in us TODAY when we believe in Him. Jesus is not refering to some point in time 50 years from now, but TODAY. HE is the way, the truth AND THE LIFE. ETERNAL LIFE. Thus, when we believe in Him on April 24, 2007, He abides in us. We have eternal life within us.

He says that he will raise that person up at the last day, which, in this context of believing in the Son and having eternal life, clearly means that Jesus will raise that person up to eternal life with him (not just raise him up to be judged and condemned)....

He will give eternal life to the one who is BELIEVING in Jesus. In context, this is a faith working in love, not just an intellectual assent. An active faith, a current faith, looks outward.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand."

This is one of the clearest statements in the Bible that one who believes in Jesus for salvation will never be lost. Believers sin and stumble, but Jesus as the perfect Shepherd loses none of His flock

It doesn't say that. It doesn't say anything about someone who BELIEVED in Christ. It talks about sheep. You are jumping to the conclusion that YOU are one of the sheep who will remain. Some who are sheep today become goats tomorrow. We see evidence of this in our own faith communities. You CERTAINLY know people who claimed at one time to have been "saved eternally", then fell away and left the Christian faith. There are a number of people, even priests and Protestant pastors, who after giving their lives to Christ, having faith, doing good works, etc, later fall away and disbelieve. They NO LONGER HAVE ETERNAL LIFE because they are not TODAY believing in Christ.

Thus, we are taught to persevere. There is absolutely no reason for Jesus or Paul or Peter or John to tell us to persevere if our eternal salvation is a done deal. Such an idea corrupts the message of Sacred Scriptures. Certainly, it is wishful thinking for people of today who are looking for a "bus ticket" to be saved and then continue on with their lives doing what they want. That is why this "gospel" is so prevalent in America. Nothing like the easy road - and yet, we are told to take the narrow road to enter the Kingdom...

Regards

 

[Guest]

You won't know you will persevere until the end! Only looking BACKWARDS into time as we stand before our Judge and Advocate will we KNOW we were "truly" born again.

Do you believe in the Word of God? Do you believe that it is THE Word of God? Inspired by God, directed by the Holy Spirit?

If you do - then YES, you CAN KNOW that you are truly BORN AGAIN! - that is the promise of the Good News - that IS the Gospel message! That one CAN KNOW FOR SURE that they are truly Born Again!

 

[AVBunyan]

COnfusion

There are two reasons here as to why folks think they can lose it:

1. They do not understand the doctrine of justification and what God did at Calvary. This is very evident. Do you know how I know this? For those who think they can lose it I've yet to see you present a clear presentation of the gospel and just what is scriptural salvation. Do yourself a favor - in the privacy of your own room sit down and see if you can actually write the doctrine of salvation/justification out and then post it if you want.

2. These same folks do not understand the uniqueness of the body of Christ as revealed by the apostle Paul. They think that all things are the same since Adam and do not understand the doctrine of the body of Christ. No one in the OT or the Gospels were:
a. Sealed with the Holy Spirit
b. Put into the body of Christ
3. Raised up to sit in heavenly places
4. Sealed with the Spirit until the day of redemption
5. Adopted
6. Glorified
6. Sanctified
7. Given an heavenly inheritance
And a few more.

Now go ahead and show me the above truths in the OT and the Gospels.

God bless

 

[francisdesales]

Do you believe in the Word of God? Do you believe that it is THE Word of God? Inspired by God, directed by the Holy Spirit?

Yes.

If you do - then YES, you CAN KNOW that you are truly BORN AGAIN! - that is the promise of the Good News - that IS the Gospel message! That one CAN KNOW FOR SURE that they are truly Born Again!

Anyone Baptized is "born again", born from above. But it doesn't follow that such a person will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven upon their death. I am trying to use the term in the same manner that Javier used it. Apparently, some Protestants make the distinction between "Born again" and "TRULY born again"... Apparently, the later are the ones bound for heaven - and that there is some way that you can figure out your future based on what you do today.

I ask you to look to the real world. Do people fall away from the faith or not?

Now, I know you will then say "they were never truly saved to begin with"

By saying that, you just destroyed your presumption. Truly, I tell you, EVERYONE who fell away said they were TRULY "born again". This is sophistry. Face it. We can't KNOW we will enter heaven until God grants it.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: COnfusion

There are two reasons here as to why folks think they can lose it:

Why don't you address the Scriptures that talk about people falling away and NOT entering the Kingdom. Scriptures that address CHRISTIANS saying they won't enter the Kingdom.

Perhaps you are narrowing salvation to a one-time moment. This ignores the fact that we ALL sin AFTER this so-called "born again" moment and require healing AGAIN. To deny this is to be termed a liar, according to 1 John. Thus, your idea of salvation/justification is limited. Over and over, the Scriptures talk about slavery to sin, Christians continuing to sin, and that sin CAN lead to (spiritual) death. Being "born again" doesn't prevent us from sinning. Isn't that obvious in the world?

As to the uniqueness of the Body, what ever happens to those excommunicated? Are they not separated from the Body, even if temporarily? Check 1 Cor 5, if you think excommunication is a Roman Catholic function. Also, consider the latter NT writings such as 1 John who speak of false teachers - those who were ONCE part of the community but were no longer considered part of the Body.

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: COnfusion

Why don't you address the Scriptures that talk about people falling away and NOT entering the Kingdom. Scriptures that address CHRISTIANS saying they won't enter the Kingdom. Regards

Which Kingdom? The earthly kingdom meant for Israel and the nations or the heavenly kingdom meant for the body of Christ?

Also, you are confusing one's position in Christ which doesn't change with one's practical walk which changes from day to day. You are trying to make the "Practical" walk the basis for your justification - won't work. Understand you Position in Christ which is expounded in Ephesians. Just go through Ephesians 1-3 and underline all the past tense words and phrases to see what God has done. This article may help:

Position vs. Practical – Standing vs. State

I think one of the reasons people are confused about eternal security and their Christian walk is that they confuse Position vs. Practical – Standing vs. State.

I’m sure most know this but I thought I’d throw it out anyway for discussion.

Position and Standing
This is how God sees you after he saved you and put you in His dear Son and seated you in heavenly places in Christ. God knows that because of the sin nature in us He has to declare us righteous even though we are not. God can do this because Christ has taken our place at Calvary and on this basis God declares us righteous. So “in the books†the saint, from God’s standpoint, is perfect, as though he never sinned or ever will sin. It has to be this way because if not we have no hope!

Practical and State
This is how we are down here. We are still stuck in these vile bodies that like to sin (Rom. 7). Because of the sin nature still in us we are in a fight daily. So, most of the time our state is a wreck. Sins are associated with our state.

I think what people do is to look at their “state†and are counting on their “state†to ultimately determine their “standing†before God.

If you are saved the standing is settled. Does this mean you can quit now that Jesus “took and passed the final exam for you� No, we should strive to be all that God has called us to be.

Our duty then?

Doctrine – Ephesians chapters 1-3 tells you your standing in Christ. Then, Eph. 4-6 tells you how to walk because of that standing. Eph. 4:1: “I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called.â€Â

In other words, “Now that you are perfect in Christ, walk your position heavenly position down here.†Up there (heaven) is victory, holiness, forgiveness, and assurance. Are you going to fail down here? Yes, so by the power of the Spirit and the instruction from the word as it is read and preached from the pulpit we are equipped to walk worthy of the vocation wherewith we are called.

What happens when one doesn’t know his standing. He looks at his state. One day it is Alabama, one day it is Oregon, and the next day it is New York. No stability and assurance there. Then he begins to try harder, goes up and down in his walk, gets discouraged, and finally is in despair because he thinks his state will determine his standing. A lot of time he even gives up because he gets too discouraged.

When a saint understands his standing and grace then he is so thankful, assured, and comforted that he is able to endure his vile flesh for he knows he is safe. He is on guard and prepared for he knows it will take the power of God to finish the work that has been done (Phil 1:6).

Now that was long and boring to some but I trust it will encourage those who struggle in this area. And lets face it – we all have a tendency to get discouraged in trying to live the Christian life and we forget that our standing guarantees God’s acceptance of us in the person of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: COnfusion

1. Why don't you address the Scriptures that talk about people falling away and NOT entering the Kingdom.
2. Scriptures that address CHRISTIANS saying they won't enter the Kingdom.

1. I have many times before - why not address the challenge I presented regarding to writing out the plan of salvation for us to see?

2. Again - Which Kingdom? The earthly kingdom meant for Israel and the nations or the heavenly kingdom meant for the body of Christ? BTW - they were not even called Christians until Acts 11:26

God bless

 

[Heidi]

Re: COnfusion

1. I have many times before - why not address the challenge I presented regarding to writing out the plan of salvation for us to see?

2. Again - Which Kingdom? The earthly kingdom meant for Israel and the nations or the heavenly kingdom meant for the body of Christ? BTW - they were not even called Christians until Acts 11:26

God bless

The poster doesn't put scripture together, he makes it contradict itself. So he must put Romans 8:1 together with the few scriptures on falling away. Then he will understand that Paul has no idea which Christians are born of God and which ones are false Christians, so he warns everyone about the dangers of falling away. But Jesus makes it quite clear that his true sheep, cannot be snatch ed out of his hand or His Father's hand. So ignoring scripture or trying to make scripture contradict itself is a losing proposition.

 

[Guest]

Anyone Baptized is "born again", born from above. But it doesn't follow that such a person will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven upon their death. I am trying to use the term in the same manner that Javier used it. Apparently, some Protestants make the distinction between "Born again" and "TRULY born again"... Apparently, the later are the ones bound for heaven - and that there is some way that you can figure out your future based on what you do today.

The bolded part is where there is disagreement and where, if I may be so bold to say, is where you have problems understanding my position.

Baptism does not make one 'born again'.

Look at it this way - when you have a headache - people will say "Take an asprin for a headache."

That doesn't mean that you should take asprin to GET a headache, but because you already have one.

In the same way, one is baptized because they have already been born again through the belief of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. One does not get baptized to be 'born again'. That person is not born again.