Lewis
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The Atheist Agenda
- Thread starter Lewis
- Start date
Drew
Member
From the article:
Some religious folks think that atheists have some sort of agenda to take away religion. This is simply not true. Most atheists do not care if people worship God, or Tinkerbell, or cheese, they just want God to stay out of their lives and government. In other words, atheists don't want religion forced on them,.....
There is a huge problem here. If there is an atheist who would take this line, I would reply that I, as a believer, has as much right to advocate to have my religious values enshrined in law as you do to have your values so enshrined. It is patently misleading to frame this issue as though the atheist is not attempting to have their own values - regardless of how they are grounded - in laws. People do this all the time, both the religious and the atheists. Whenever an atheist votes for a government that will, for example, seek legal redress against child pornographers that atheist is, of course, "forcing" people who would otherwise want to produce child pornography to not be free to do so. And I would applaud such an initiative by the atheist. But please don't tell me that my values, say the ones based on Jesus's teachings, are any less legitimate candidates for legal enshrinement.
Yes, there have been problems in the past when "religious stuff" gets enshrined by Law and I am all in favour of initiatives to not force or coerce anyone into a worldview they don't want. But it's one thing to "force" people by writ of law to join in public worship of a deity (I would oppose such a law), but it's quite another to tell me that my view on abortion, for example, cannot be enshrined in law simply because I may have arrived at that view by considering the teachings of a religious figure.
Let democracy do its thing - let the "marketplace of ideas" sort out the good stuff from the bad.
Some religious folks think that atheists have some sort of agenda to take away religion. This is simply not true. Most atheists do not care if people worship God, or Tinkerbell, or cheese, they just want God to stay out of their lives and government. In other words, atheists don't want religion forced on them,.....
There is a huge problem here. If there is an atheist who would take this line, I would reply that I, as a believer, has as much right to advocate to have my religious values enshrined in law as you do to have your values so enshrined. It is patently misleading to frame this issue as though the atheist is not attempting to have their own values - regardless of how they are grounded - in laws. People do this all the time, both the religious and the atheists. Whenever an atheist votes for a government that will, for example, seek legal redress against child pornographers that atheist is, of course, "forcing" people who would otherwise want to produce child pornography to not be free to do so. And I would applaud such an initiative by the atheist. But please don't tell me that my values, say the ones based on Jesus's teachings, are any less legitimate candidates for legal enshrinement.
Yes, there have been problems in the past when "religious stuff" gets enshrined by Law and I am all in favour of initiatives to not force or coerce anyone into a worldview they don't want. But it's one thing to "force" people by writ of law to join in public worship of a deity (I would oppose such a law), but it's quite another to tell me that my view on abortion, for example, cannot be enshrined in law simply because I may have arrived at that view by considering the teachings of a religious figure.
Let democracy do its thing - let the "marketplace of ideas" sort out the good stuff from the bad.
Haha, that picture at the end.
I've known lots of nice and respectful atheists. Anti-theistism, though, is a different philosophy that actually opposes theism, especially organized religion. Which I don't have a problem with so long as the rights of religious people to believe and worship as they see fit are still respected.
I've known lots of nice and respectful atheists. Anti-theistism, though, is a different philosophy that actually opposes theism, especially organized religion. Which I don't have a problem with so long as the rights of religious people to believe and worship as they see fit are still respected.
Jesus' Follower
Member
I also know some respectful atheists, however they can be painted in a rather poor light by atheists which take things a little too far.
I think I recall, I may be wrong here, but someone said to me that atheism is a religion on its own.
I think I recall, I may be wrong here, but someone said to me that atheism is a religion on its own.
YosefHayim
Member
The Atheist Agenda was exposed in Psalm 2.
Jesus' Follower
Member
I'll be sure to look into this, thank you.
Milk-Drops
Member
I was recently at a convention ( not an atheist one, just happened to have a panel on it. ), where we the audience and the speaker shared ideas and concerns on public atheism. One audience member was asked to leave because of his brash and unapologetic disdain for Christianity/ other religious people.
The talk and panel was all about finding common ground. Talking about respectful disagreement and uniting in common ideas and goals. At one Time I was somewhat active in the Youtube Atheist community, but I've walked away from most of it because it started to feel like a snooty club for anti theists to complain about religion. I don't feel the same way and most of my anger has dried up and fallen away with religion. I have disagreements on certain principles, but overall I don't have any malice against Christians or any religious people as people.
Drew pointed out a common saying I've heard a lot, "Atheists just don't want religion force on them through law,". When I was at my most "activist" point, I would think this when it came to LGBT stuff, and Secular government. Its just a very hard stance to actually hold because eventually the philosophical side of what exactly is a religion or world view starts getting muddy. Its something that sounds good on paper, but doesn't really work in practice. Its an ideal like Comunisms or Libertarianism. Good on paper, impossible in practice.
Just my thoughts.
The talk and panel was all about finding common ground. Talking about respectful disagreement and uniting in common ideas and goals. At one Time I was somewhat active in the Youtube Atheist community, but I've walked away from most of it because it started to feel like a snooty club for anti theists to complain about religion. I don't feel the same way and most of my anger has dried up and fallen away with religion. I have disagreements on certain principles, but overall I don't have any malice against Christians or any religious people as people.
Drew pointed out a common saying I've heard a lot, "Atheists just don't want religion force on them through law,". When I was at my most "activist" point, I would think this when it came to LGBT stuff, and Secular government. Its just a very hard stance to actually hold because eventually the philosophical side of what exactly is a religion or world view starts getting muddy. Its something that sounds good on paper, but doesn't really work in practice. Its an ideal like Comunisms or Libertarianism. Good on paper, impossible in practice.
Just my thoughts.
jasonc
Member
that is what I have seen with Libertarianism. I use that as a simple means to let others know where I line up. but its not possible to be that way. in reality the few I know at home really aren't.
Not_Now.Soon
Member
There are at least three kinds of atheists that I am aware of. One is the loud ones. And those ones often seem to have an agenda to be against religion or a specific religion in one way or another. Being an atheist is who they are instead of saying who they aren't. The second kind that I know of, either just don't want to be involved with religion or don't have an issue with it but don't accept it either way. I've heard of some who actually would prefer not to be considered an atheist because that says what they don't believe in, instead of what they do believe in. The third kind that I know of are kind of more on the fence, not agnostic, they don't believe in God, but they are between the atheist who doesn't believe in any supernatural force or supernatural beings, and the agnostic who isn't sure. I know of some atheists who don't believe in God, but do believe in supernatural stuff, or at least some stuff that hasn't been proven and able to be used by science or medicine on larger scales like we can do when we go to college and learn how to be a doctor or an engineer. Because those studies have been studied and have a foundation strong enough to have courses taught on them.
By the sound of the author of this article, I don't think she's the first type of atheist. Definitely not a militant atheist against the idea of religions even existing. Probabley the second kind, that wants to be left alone, but in that expects that it is a civil thing to ask, for believers to just not be believers while they are around her, or in public.
Last thought is the counter thought to the atheist agenda. What is our agenda? Though some groups saying they are Christian stand by an agenda of one kind or another, such as those who have formed hate groups against other races or against homosexuality. (KKK, and Westbro Church come to mind.). Then there are those who in one sentence combine politics and God together and think it is their Christian duty to be pro gun, or anti-liberal, or anything else that has swept in our history to mix politics and zealous belief. Those are some groups that I can think of that have used Christianity as a tool for their cause. But I also think aside from any of those or causes like them that there is a Christian agenda. God sent His son to save the world, how would we as followers not be on the same quest? To save the sinner, to rescue the poor and the abused. To love one another, even to love one's enemies. We are given a task that is to follow Jesus, and by doing so aren't we support to be the things that make the world a better place. Be a light to the world and be known as God's because of our love? Make no mistake, I think we have an agenda to fill as well.
By the sound of the author of this article, I don't think she's the first type of atheist. Definitely not a militant atheist against the idea of religions even existing. Probabley the second kind, that wants to be left alone, but in that expects that it is a civil thing to ask, for believers to just not be believers while they are around her, or in public.
Last thought is the counter thought to the atheist agenda. What is our agenda? Though some groups saying they are Christian stand by an agenda of one kind or another, such as those who have formed hate groups against other races or against homosexuality. (KKK, and Westbro Church come to mind.). Then there are those who in one sentence combine politics and God together and think it is their Christian duty to be pro gun, or anti-liberal, or anything else that has swept in our history to mix politics and zealous belief. Those are some groups that I can think of that have used Christianity as a tool for their cause. But I also think aside from any of those or causes like them that there is a Christian agenda. God sent His son to save the world, how would we as followers not be on the same quest? To save the sinner, to rescue the poor and the abused. To love one another, even to love one's enemies. We are given a task that is to follow Jesus, and by doing so aren't we support to be the things that make the world a better place. Be a light to the world and be known as God's because of our love? Make no mistake, I think we have an agenda to fill as well.
Not_Now.Soon
Member
No that's just one argument among many to try and be quick and witty against a Christian's beliefs. Since they don't believe in God, they can't say what God is or isn't. They already don't believe he exists.
It's like asking "how much could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?" The answer is that woodchucks can't chuck wood. If we believe that woodchucks can't chuck wood, then making a measurement on how much they can chuck is totally in error, and only used as a joke.
The atheist who uses the argument you've given is using it to ridicule or to disprove God actually existing. Not as something they actually believe.
YosefHayim
Member
I think you misunderstand. They don't use this argument against Christianity. As a Christian, I use this argument against atheism.
Jesus' Follower
Member
This is a very good point; they would not need to try and disprove something.
Jesus' Follower
Member
Indeed, this is true.And if there were no atheists, there would be no agendas.
Milk-Drops
Member
As someone who was part of the larger movement at one time, its not that simple. Generally, the majority of Atheists were at one time a believer in a religion ( most commonly Christianity in Europe or the Americas). Since the US, for example, is very Christian influenced in our culture it effects our policies and social norms. There are Atheists because their are Christians, its a philosophical debate. In many European countries where religion isn't as dominant there isn't as much of a need for people to identify as Atheists because its not a big deal. To not believe in God in the US, is a big deal to a lot of people. That is why the US is pretty high in its numbers of people identifying as Atheist.This is a very good point; they would not need to try and disprove something.