Bible Study THE BIBLE - COMMENTRY FROM CHRISTIAN MINDS

[Free]

Still waiting for an answer.

 

[Free]

Bump. No answer or are you just not around anymore?

 

[TheStudent]

TheStudent wrote:
now we have the Bible. itself not the word of Jesus but was, as chrisitians admit, transmitted from person to person, the same as the collection of Hadith. itslef relied on eye witnesses and their truthfullness.

The keyword there is "eyewitnesses," of which Muhammad has none.
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have you not heard of the volumes of Hadith of the Prophet?
we believe that God revealed the Gospel/Good News to jesus, not matthew mark luke or john. It is the words of Jesus that are this Gospel. The REAL Gospel reads EXACTLY like the Quran, a direct dictation from God to Prophet.
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TheStudent wrote:
does it just rely on the claims of 4 main writers?

You need to clarify what mean by the "Bible." You seem to think that the Bible only consists of the 4 gospels which are only 4 of 66 books in the Bible. There are numerous writers.
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who are these 66 writers? why are there so many ANONYMOUS ones? very strange
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TheStudent wrote:
but the main question to ask is 'where they prophets?' did they speak DIRECT with God? No.

Whether or not they were prophets is irrelevant. The question is did God speak to them; were their words inspired and given by God? Yes, they were.
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and your proof? were they prophets? no . were the words they wrote their own or that of God? their own.
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TheStudent wrote:
not forgetting the fact that early christians were killed as heretics and had their copies of scripture burned if it didnt agree with Pauls teachings.

And of course that has never happened in Islam. [/sarcasm]

That is certainly an oversimplification and misrepresentation of what happened.

Back to the points at the top: You claim that the modern Bibles are distorted from the originals. You also claim that the originals are no longer in existence. Please, tell me, what evdience do you then have that the Bible was distorted? When was it distorted? By whom was it distorted?
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common sense tells you that Jesus was not God. God does not eat or sleep.jesus did. the evidence is in the bible itself. Jesus preached the Gospel as revealed to him by God. all these 'other' books are not the Gospel. they are additions by OTHER writers, most of which are ANONYMOUS. do you not see? the christianity you follow today is not based on the teachings of christ , but paul.

 

[Free]

TheStudent wrote:
now we have the Bible. itself not the word of Jesus but was, as chrisitians admit, transmitted from person to person, the same as the collection of Hadith. itslef relied on eye witnesses and their truthfullness.

The keyword there is "eyewitnesses," of which Muhammad has none.

Yes, that is the keyword. I would much rather believe the testimony of hundreds of witnesses against the testimony of one man. That is a huge strike against Islam - following the unsubstantiated claims of one man.

have you not heard of the volumes of Hadith of the Prophet? we believe that God revealed the Gospel/Good News to jesus, not matthew mark luke or john. It is the words of Jesus that are this Gospel. The REAL Gospel reads EXACTLY like the Quran, a direct dictation from God to Prophet.

But this is the point you need to prove; you have no evidence whatsoever that is ever was the case. All the evidence goes against this claim.

who are these 66 writers? why are there so many ANONYMOUS ones? very strange

There were not 66 writers; there were 36-40. Whether or not there are anonymous writers (there certainly aren't "many") is irrelevant and has nothing to do with the inspiration of Scripture.

and your proof? were they prophets? no . were the words they wrote their own or that of God? their own.

You want proof from me yet you can give none yourself. The Bible is very internally consistent.

As for evidence of God, consider the following:

The book of Mark is generally accepted to have been written around 65 AD, yet, in stating the words of Jesus, it foretells the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD:

Mar 13:1 And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!"
Mar 13:2 And Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down."

It is a historical fact that when the Romans overthrew Jerusalem and sacked the Temple, they burned it and overturned all the stones to get to the melted gold in between them.

common sense tells you that Jesus was not God. God does not eat or sleep.jesus did. the evidence is in the bible itself. Jesus preached the Gospel as revealed to him by God. all these 'other' books are not the Gospel. they are additions by OTHER writers, most of which are ANONYMOUS. do you not see? the christianity you follow today is not based on the teachings of christ , but paul.

Common sense certainly says that Jesus is God. Your points of Jesus eating and sleeping are irrelevant since Jesus was God in human flesh.

Also, Paul's teachings and Christ's teachings are in agreement with each other. I have already addressed the point about "anonymous" writers and the fact that there are many writers, many "eyewitnesses" to the events of Jesus is a very strong point for the authority of the Bible and its superiority over the Qur'an.

You have yet to provide any evidence for the claim that the Bible is corrupted from the original Scriptures.

I'll restate my previous points and questions which you have yet to answer:

You claim that the modern Bibles are distorted from the originals. You also claim that the originals are no longer in existence. Please, tell me, what evdience do you then have that the Bible was distorted? When was it distorted? By whom was it distorted?

 

[TheStudent]

Yes, that is the keyword. I would much rather believe the testimony of hundreds of witnesses against the testimony of one man. That is a huge strike against Islam - following the unsubstantiated claims of one man. '

how many times would you like me to repeat it? HADITHS!! look it up!
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TheStudent wrote:
have you not heard of the volumes of Hadith of the Prophet? we believe that God revealed the Gospel/Good News to jesus, not matthew mark luke or john. It is the words of Jesus that are this Gospel. The REAL Gospel reads EXACTLY like the Quran, a direct dictation from God to Prophet.

But this is the point you need to prove; you have no evidence whatsoever that is ever was the case. All the evidence goes against this claim.

tell me, were the WORDS of Jesus the WORDS of God or not? is it THESE words that we should ALL follow? the 4 gospels are just supposedly third party accounts of what happened in the life of jesus, all of them written many years after the ascension of Christ. so now, which is the REAL GOOD NEWS? the WORDS of Jesus or these 4 gospels?

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There were not 66 writers; there were 36-40. Whether or not there are anonymous writers (there certainly aren't "many") is irrelevant and has nothing to do with the inspiration of Scripture.

in your own words:'I would much rather believe the testimony of hundreds of witnesses against the testimony of one man. '

you do not even know the NAMES of the people who wrote the books you deem HOLY!! please, does is this still reasonable to you?
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'You want proof from me yet you can give none yourself. The Bible is very internally consistent.

i asked a very simple question, apart from Davids Psalms, are ANY of the authors of the books of the Bible prophets?
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It is a historical fact that when the Romans overthrew Jerusalem and sacked the Temple, they burned it and overturned all the stones to get to the melted gold in between them.

yes, and as i said PARTS of the bible have been changed/misinterpreted
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Common sense certainly says that Jesus is God. Your points of Jesus eating and sleeping are irrelevant since Jesus was God in human flesh.

and when jesus says 'do not call me good' or 'worship only the father',
what does this say?
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You claim that the modern Bibles are distorted from the originals. You also claim that the originals are no longer in existence. Please, tell me, what evdience do you then have that the Bible was distorted? When was it distorted? By whom was it distorted?

as i said, which books of the bible are written by prophets? which books of the bible were written/dictated by Jesus? in the lifetime of Jesus? yet you still believe it all word for word!!

 

[Free]

how many times would you like me to repeat it? HADITHS!! look it up!

Keep repeating it because both you and I know that Muslims will use the Hadiths selectively because they contradict eather and the Qur'an. Talk our friend Gary and he'll explain it.

Regardless, much of the NT was written by those who saw Christ's death and resurrection. It is likely that the rest of the NT was dictated to a writer by a first-hand witness who saw Jesus's ascension as well.

Don't you find it a little odd that Muhammed performed no miracles and no one witnessed his supposed ascension? The Hadiths are just as man-made as the Qur'an and are not inspired by God like the Bible.

so now, which is the REAL GOOD NEWS? the WORDS of Jesus or these 4 gospels?

You are not understanding the point I am making. Here you are differentiating between the words of Jesus and the four gospels. That implies that the gospels do not contain the words of Jesus.

This means that you must have some evidence that the gosples are not the words of Jesus. If you cannot provide direct evidence, then your argument is false.

you do not even know the NAMES of the people who wrote the books you deem HOLY!! please, does is this still reasonable to you?

Whether or not I know their names is irrelevant to the inspiration or authenticity of the books of the Bible. But most of the names of the writers are known anyway.

i asked a very simple question, apart from Davids Psalms, are ANY of the authors of the books of the Bible prophets?

Of course. There is Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, etc. Most of the Bible is written by prophets. Of course, if you define a prophet as one who hears God, then they are all prophets.

yes, and as i said PARTS of the bible have been changed/misinterpreted

And yet you have provided zero evidence to substantiate that claim. Many Muslims make that claim, yet none has ever provided direct evidence. I suspect it comes from Muslim apologists who tell Muslims what they want to hear even though it is completely false.

and when jesus says 'do not call me good' or 'worship only the father', what does this say?

It says that you need to take things in context or else you can make it mean whatever you want it to mean. The Bible does not read like the Qur'an and it must be taken in its entirety to get the full meaning of who Jesus is.

i said, which books of the bible are written by prophets? which books of the bible were written/dictated by Jesus? in the lifetime of Jesus? yet you still believe it all word for word!!

This is not evidence. These points are irrelevant in determining the authenticity and inspiration of the Bible. You must provide proof coming from the original Greek autographs and compare them with all the known Greek and Latin manuscripts to prove that the Bible is distorted from the originals.

If you cannot do that, then your claim is without foundation and is false.

 

[TheStudent]

so free, have you read the original greek bible yourself? or do you just read the version king james authorised?

 

[Free]

I use the KJV occasionally as a reference, along with many other Bible versions. I don't read the Greek, yet, but in the next couple of years I will be taking a lot of it.

Of course, that is irrelevant to my request for proof of your original claim. The point is can you or any other Muslim give the proof that you say exists? If not, you have no reason for believing the Qur'an over the Bible. Actually, you would have many reasons to reject the Qur'an and believe the Bible.

 

[yesha]

This has nothing to do with bible study, and is it's self an old thread, but since it's still here and near the top I can't help but comment of how glareingly misguided this is.

1) Alah (hebrew to swear or curse) is not the same as Allah (arabic 'The God').
2) The Scofield footnotes are not a "version" of the bible.
3) I didn't look it up, but I doubt that that etymology is currently considered correct, and thus probably it's deletion in the "latest version" which is probably pretty dated. Certainly the publishers wouldn't remove it, if they even did, to try and hide the rediculous idea that people might read that and convert (or revert as muslims believe) to Islam.

Also "TheStudent", out of curiosity, what branch of Islam do you represent? Sunni, Shia, or one of the many others? How did you choose Islam to be your religion? Were you born into it (your parents are Muslim), or was it through your intellect, or some kind of feeling that you came to accept it?

 

[TheStudent]

theres only one Islam that is acceptable and that is the Islam that was taught by Muhammed. I dont define myself by anything but 'Muslim'.

my parents are both muslim but being raised in the UK all of the best schools were christian focused. in these schools, at an early age i was exposed to christianity. we regualry prayed to jesus and even partook in religions cermonies. during this time ( i was very young - about 6-7) i always had a feeling that christianity was just 'not right'. i was taught about Islam at home but had never been forced to practise it as i should. over the years i studied the quran and its message. being quite a sceptic, i never took anything on face value, but on reading passages which talk of the big bang,atoms and other things which had only been discovered recently, i took islam a lot more seriously. i lived like a pretty regular western raised teenager and didnt take religion seriously until i grew and understood Islams finer details and its complete balance of physical and spiritul. To me, it made a lot of sense. It is logical and complete. It is only recently as i have had my first child that i have woken to Islam and now practise it as I should. Having a child really wakes you up. It made me responsible and puts a lot of things in perspective. Truly, you do not start living until you get married and have children. Now as a family, Islam has the answers that I am looking for in all aspects of my life. It teaches me how to treat my wife and child correctly. It teaches me that I am responsible for the well being of my family. It teaches me that I will be accountable for everything I do with my time on earth. It also teaches me that the best Muslim is one who treats his wife the best. This is one of the values that i always try to practise. Islam has no ifs or buts or maybes. It not only contains the rules for family life, but social, economic, political and spiritual life. From the new born child to the leader of nations, it will tell you directly what the correct method of action and thinking is, all with logical and morally correct reasoning. All based on the belief that there is only One God, from Him we came and to Him we will return.

 

[yesha]

theres only one Islam that is acceptable and that is the Islam that was taught by Muhammed. I dont define myself by anything but 'Muslim'.

What do you think Muhammad taught? Which adhadith do you consider authentic?
What do you think of those Muslims who believe that all of the adhadith is man made conjecture?
What do you think of those Muslims who believe that todays qur'an has been corrupted?
What do you think of those Muslims who believe the bible should be used along with the qur'an for study?

my parents are both muslim

I had suspected as much.

being quite a sceptic, i never took anything on face value, but on reading passages which talk of the big bang,atoms and other things which had only been discovered recently, i took islam a lot more seriously.

That's interestings that that kind of stuff increased your faith. I don't give much weight to that kind of stuff. For example, when scientists thought that the universe was collapsing, people would quote from the qur'an and say, see how amazing the qur'an is to predict this. And then when the scientists thought that the universe was expanding, people would again pick another verse and say that the qur'an says that too.

To me, it made a lot of sense. It is logical and complete.

I agree to an extent. A religion like Islam is what one would expect from a religion, God weighs your good deeds and bad deeds and rewards and punishes based on that result. Christianity, however, is what people would not expect. I think that this gives Christianity more credibility as coming from God, because it doesn't do things as men would have thought to do it.

Now as a family, Islam has the answers that I am looking for in all aspects of my life. It teaches me how to treat my wife and child correctly. It teaches me that I am responsible for the well being of my family. It teaches me that I will be accountable for everything I do with my time on earth. It also teaches me that the best Muslim is one who treats his wife the best. This is one of the values that i always try to practise. Islam has no ifs or buts or maybes. It not only contains the rules for family life, but social, economic, political and spiritual life. From the new born child to the leader of nations, it will tell you directly what the correct method of action and thinking is, all with logical and morally correct reasoning. All based on the belief that there is only One God, from Him we came and to Him we will return.

There are indeed many similar beliefs between Jewdaism/Christianity and Islam. The standard of rightousness that Christians are called too is so high that it can feel impossible to achieve. Mostly, I think, the Christian life is common sense moral living. We don't have rules for things like not to walk on cracks, and things like that.

To what extent do you use the bible? Is that your reason for posting here, to learn more about it.

 

[TheStudent]

What do you think Muhammad taught? Which adhadith do you consider authentic?
What do you think of those Muslims who believe that all of the adhadith is man made conjecture?
What do you think of those Muslims who believe that todays qur'an has been corrupted?
What do you think of those Muslims who believe the bible should be used along with the qur'an for study?

any hadith which dosent contradict the quran is considered authentic.
but i dont know of any muslim who believes that the quran is corrupted! please show me proof.
i believe that the bible IS a Holy Book but its teachings have become corrupted. It is these corruptions that the Quran rectifies.
It is said that ALL of Gods Books, Torah, Psalms, Gospel of Jesus and Quran can be summarised in the phrase 'Bismilah Ir Rahman Al Rahiem'
which roughly translated means 'In the Name of Allah, Most Merciful, Never Ending Mercy Giving'

[qoute]That's interestings that that kind of stuff increased your faith. I don't give much weight to that kind of stuff. For example, when scientists thought that the universe was collapsing, people would quote from the qur'an and say, see how amazing the qur'an is to predict this. And then when the scientists thought that the universe was expanding, people would again pick another verse and say that the qur'an says that too.
[/quote]
the Quran is the final Book until the end of time. these scientific verses are there specifically to help convince the people of this scientific day and age. this is one of the continuing miraicales of the Quran. these verses only made me open my eyes a bit wider and study Islam in more depth to see what was under the surface. My islam is not based on a few scientific facts, but its WHOLE message.

I agree to an extent. A religion like Islam is what one would expect from a religion, God weighs your good deeds and bad deeds and rewards and punishes based on that result. Christianity, however, is what people would not expect. I think that this gives Christianity more credibility as coming from God, because it doesn't do things as men would have thought to do it.

i'll have to disagree. this is one of the reasons why i think many people are becoming muslim, it is NATURAL to our SPIRITUAL self, it dosent go against our SPIRITUAL nature. Islam is logical once you start to live it. 'what we expect' is for man to try to satisfy his wants and comforts, that is the natural state we have been made in. it is the overcoming of these basic, animal wants that Islam teaches as the only way to Allah.SACRIFICE!! sadly in christianity, followers are seemingly taught that as long as you believe that jesus is God, then you will be saved NO MATTER what you do in life. this leads on to....

There are indeed many similar beliefs between Jewdaism/Christianity and Islam. The standard of rightousness that Christians are called too is so high that it can feel impossible to achieve. Mostly, I think, the Christian life is common sense moral living. We don't have rules for things like not to walk on cracks, and things like that.

without rules there would be chaos. rules give us our limitations and it is only God that can set these limitations. the rules in Islam far from oppressing you, actually FREE you from YOUR SELF. we are made selfish. all we want is to satisfy our wants and desires. that is the state that our PHYSICAL self has been made. it is through overcoming our physical self (some say the brain, some say stomach) by the strength of our SPIRITUAL self (the heart) that we are FREE from the trappings of this temporary world. a muslim dosent drink alcohol, for example, because it can LEAD to temptation. in islam we CUT OFF anything that can lead to sin. Allah, understanding the weak nature he has created us in, has given us the Quran which fully explains all of the areas that man must overcome so as to meet Him in a pure state. remember, we are Gods favourite creation. remember, God asked the angels to bow to man. we should be BETTER and PURER than angels! think, in this world of today, how EASY is it to become tempted and look at something your not supposed to or do someething your not supposed to? theres a poem i will paraphrase: One look of the eye, one smile of the mouth,one word of the tongue, one night of the flesh.

the only reason i am on this site is to spread DAWAH, invitation to Islam, through reasoning.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

sadly in christianity, followers are seemingly taught that as long as you believe that jesus is God, then you will be saved NO MATTER what you do in life. this leads on to....

Those who teach this are as faithful to the teachings of Christ as bin Laden is to the teachings of Islam. IE, not at all. Each religion has schismatics, heretics, mavericks, and the like.

The authentic Christian gospel makes it clear that at the Great Judgement, those who have been kind, merciful, and generous will receive kindness, mercy, and generosity. (Matthew 25, James 1:27).

The authentic Christian gospel teaches that faith without works is dead (James 2:17, Luke 10:25-37)

The authentic Christian gospel teaches that the truth of our faith is in the keeping of His Commandments (1 John 2:4)

The false gospel adds the word 'alone' to key portions on faith, resulting in Law-breaking, neighbor hating, self-righteous pseudo Christianity- the kind that delights in informing others about how those who do not share their particular faith are doomed.

Does this not sound like the way that you would deal with the purveyors of violence in the name of Islam?

I make the point here unapologetically that the misdeeds and mis-teaching DO NOT prove the reality of Islam. If so, then the violence of Islam proves the truth of the next religion- perhaps secular humanism.

We shall deal later with the so-called corruption of the Christian message that the Koran supposedly corrects, but let us for now conclude knowing that the truth of our respective religions is not established in the misdeeds of certain apostates.

Would you not concur?

 

[TheStudent]

i am only repeating the words of christians that i have heard many times.
its easy to see how the 'works' have been made redundant due to the lazy and selfish nature of men. it is easy to see that the doctrine of 'jesus died for your sins' has led to this state.

why do you think there isnt even ONE christian state alive today? it is easy to see that this steady decline in following the Law has led to a decline in morality. remember it was only 100 years ago that in 'western' christian countries it was controversial for a woman to reveal her ankle. Islam has stayed pretty much the same since its conception.

in the Quran it says that there will be no more new (major) religions after Islam, in 1400 years this has proved true.

 

[yesha]

any hadith which dosent contradict the quran is considered authentic.

Which of the adhadith, then, doesn't contradict the qur'an?
If you could estimate, what % of your beliefs are based solely in the adhadith? 80%?
Also, what you do consider your Sunna?

but i dont know of any muslim who believes that the quran is corrupted! please show me proof.

I only know about it because I have seen Muslims warning others about certain sects with such beliefs.
The names of such sects are usually gobblygook to me and so I really don't pay much attention to it, except to remember the dispute. But a quick google search has yielded the following:
http://bahai-library.com/personal/jw/my ... quran.html
I never bothered to read it, but I suspect it contains some kind of evidence of some kind of Muslim who believes in a corrupted qur'an if your interested. Really with all the different sects in Islam, it should not surprise you much that some could believe this.

i believe that the bible IS a Holy Book but its teachings have become corrupted. It is these corruptions that the Quran rectifies.

It seems that most muslims believe something like what you said. How much corruption in your opinion? a few verses? Or is the entire thing a corruption? What I find interesting is that to me the qur'an does not show any previous books as corrupt. How then did you conclude that they were corrupt? From reading the qur'an, adhadith, or your own personal study, or most probably did someone simply tell you so?

without rules there would be chaos. rules give us our limitations and it is only God that can set these limitations. the rules in Islam far from oppressing you, actually FREE you from YOUR SELF. we are made selfish. all we want is to satisfy our wants and desires. that is the state that our PHYSICAL self has been made. it is through overcoming our physical self (some say the brain, some say stomach) by the strength of our SPIRITUAL self (the heart) that we are FREE from the trappings of this temporary world. a muslim dosent drink alcohol, for example, because it can LEAD to temptation. in islam we CUT OFF anything that can lead to sin. Allah, understanding the weak nature he has created us in, has given us the Quran which fully explains all of the areas that man must overcome so as to meet Him in a pure state. remember, we are Gods favourite creation. remember, God asked the angels to bow to man. we should be BETTER and PURER than angels! think, in this world of today, how EASY is it to become tempted and look at something your not supposed to or do someething your not supposed to? theres a poem i will paraphrase: One look of the eye, one smile of the mouth,one word of the tongue, one night of the flesh.

Most of these rules, like how to enter a bathroom, aren't found in the qur'an. I can appreciate the idea of having some way of foccusing on God in everything that you do. Christians are called to always be mindful of God, but don't necessarily have 'rules' on how to do it. I couldn't say if the rules help much or not. I don't think most muslims are very devout, and those that are, can probably be as mindful without rules telling them how to be. Again, what do you think of those Muslims who are qur'an only?

 

[TheStudent]

http://www.ilaam.net/Articles/QuranBible.html

explains it quite nicely:

The Qur'an and the Bible

by Dr. M. Amir Ali, Ph.D.

The Muslims and non-Muslims consider the Qur'an and the Bible to be their respective books of guidance without realizing the vast differences between the two. Firstly, the Bible is a scripture and many Muslims erroneously consider the Qur'an to be a scripture. In the Qur'an, Allah describes the Qur'an as "Al-Kitab", meaning "the Book", which is the right name for it. The Bible is called a scripture and if asked about the authorship, Christians tell you that there were forty-some persons, rarely a prophet or a messenger among them, who wrote the Bible under divine inspiration. The concept of divine inspiration is an assumption without verification. Whereas, the Qur'an was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad Sall-Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam (henceforth denoted as S) who dictated to his scribes, the most honorable companions. In the sense of authorship the Bible is a scripture whereas the Qur'an is not a scripture but a revealed book.

The Qur'an talks about the TAURAT, ZUBOOR and INJEEL which were the books revealed by Allah to the Prophets Musa, Dawood and 'Isa 'alaihumus-salaam, respectively, which are not the s

ame books as the Bible. Due to the similarity of some contents of TAURAT, ZUBOOR and INJEEL, some people equate them with the Torah and Psalms of David and the Gospels respectively, which is an error. This has given an excuse to the Christian missionaries to present the Bible in the native languages of the Muslim countries as the TAURAT, ZUBOOR and INJEEL of the QUR'AN and confuse and confound naive Muslims. The revealed Taurat, Zuboor and Injeel were revealed books which are extinct, whereas, the Bible may contain some parts of Taurat, Zuboor and Injeel in modern-day language translation in corrupt form. A translation of a revealed book cannot be the word of God because in the process of translation the word of God is transformed into the word of man. In the language of revelation (Arabic or Aramaic or Hebrew) only one manuscript or codex could be the word of God, whereas, there can be an infinite number of translations by man. It is, therefore, agreed by Muslim scholars that any translation of the Qur'an is not the word of God and does not qualify to be called the Qur'an. Non-Arabic speaking people should be able to benefit from translations but no one should depend upon a single translation because no translation is free of errors. A translation represents the understanding or lack of it by the translator himself. If any one desires to become a scholar of the Qur'an there is no choice but to learn the Arabic language of the Qur'an and gain expertise in it.

One of the major sources of corruption of the Bible is translation and translations of translations. With regards to the Gospels of the Christians, there is no record of even writing down any document when Jesus received revelations. It is believed by the Christians that the first records of the teachings of Jesus (A) and his life were made decades after his disappearance and it was in the Greek language. The earliest manuscript available is from the fourth century after Jesus. In the case of the Old Testament, it was written in Hebrew and its dialects, but was destroyed at least twice by the enemies of Judaism in ancient times without leaving a single copy and was rewritten from memory, one of the sources of corruption. The Qur'an was recorded in writing as well as in the memory of many people in the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad (S) and was compiled in book form according to his directions by his companions shortly after his death. It is, therefore, suggested that Muslims should not apply the term "scripture" to the Qur'an. "Al-Kitab", when used in the Qur'an, should be translated simply as "the Book".

a true muslim would NEVER say that the quran has been changed. full stop.
bahaists have mixed islam with christianity and other faiths to create their own faith. they are not TRUE muslims.
the prophet muhammed said that before the end of the world there would be 71 jewish sects, 72 christian sects and 73 islamic sects. only ONE from each would be the correct one. it is this ONE that is the TRUE sect. these sects have arisen out of incorrect interpretion of holy books and blatant greed on the side of men.
as a muslim, i study quran, hadith and teachings of various scholars to come to a balanced judgement on any issues i have. in the quran islam is called 'the middle way'. it is this moderate, middle way that i follow.islam is a simple faith. the minimum we must do to be true muslims is follow the 5 pillars.

the hadith which talk of 'how to go to the bathroom' are based on how the propeht muhammed,pbuh, did it. as muslims, we must follow the lifestlyes of the prophets as much as possible as the prophets were guided by God. if you knew exactly how jesus would 'go to the bathroom' would you not do the same? dont you think that the way jesus did it would be the BEST way? unfortuantly for christians they dont have a record of the lifestyle of jesus. this has also led to deviations in the prophetic lifestyle we should be trying to follow.

 

[TheStudent]

also , the quran states that the Gospel, Injeel in arabic, was revealed to JESUS. this means that in the lifetime of Jesus, the COMPLETE Gospel was revealed. now, as we know, the bible was not fully compiled until hundreds of years after the death of christ.
what was revealed to jesus, were the WORDS of jesus in the gospel. nothing else. everything else, the narrative description, were man made, yet im sure you will tell me that they were 'divinely revealed'.
remember that the gospels are titled 'the gospel ACCORDING to...'. if this isnt a clear enough indication of the man made nature of the gospels then i dont know what is. oh yeah 'the king james VERSION'. surely there can only be one, VERSION-LESS, Gospel?
so my question to you is, how do YOU dechyper the man made words and jesus' words? shouldnt you take out the man made narrative in the gospels, and re-interpret the remaining words of jesus and find the truth?

one question. who was the author of mark 16:9-20?

"Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark. They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark. His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost. (From the NIV Bible Foot Notes, page 1528)"

also, how many of the disciples witnessed the supposed crucifiction?

 

[yesha]

The Muslims and non-Muslims consider the Qur'an and the Bible to be their respective books of guidance without realizing the vast differences between the two. Firstly, the Bible is a scripture and many Muslims erroneously consider the Qur'an to be a scripture. In the Qur'an, Allah describes the Qur'an as "Al-Kitab", meaning "the Book", which is the right name for it.

I should write down these quotes, "Muslims erroneously consider the Qurn'an to be a scripture"
Do you not even consider the qur'an to be scripture?
Also aren't Christians and Jews called the people of the book ("Al-Kitab") according to the qur'an.
You see according to the qur'an, the books of the Jews and Christians are revealed books.
Yet most Muslims don't seem to take the qur'an at it's word,
and think the Jews and Christians don't even know what their own books are,
The qur'an states it plainly, for example, when telling muslims who doubt what is written in the qur'an
to go and ask those who were reading the books revealed before it,
something hard to do if the books arn't availble, don't you think?
Don't you see this line of thinking as contradicting the qur'an?
Never mind what this guy says, what does the qur'an say?
What does the qur'an say about man's ability to corrupt scripture?

the prophet muhammed said that before the end of the world there would be 71 jewish sects, 72 christian sects and 73 islamic sects. only ONE from each would be the correct one.

Yes one from each, if you accept this hadith. And note that Islam, according to Islam, has the MOST sects.

it is this ONE that is the TRUE sect.

Every one says it of themselves.

I personally think, that those who I think call themselves the Submitters, the English for Muslim, who believe that the qur'an should be read with out any adhadith make the strongest arguments using the qur'an for their support.
Again, what do you think of this sect?

If what you learn in the Hadiths is so important, which takes careful study to try and pick out the correct bits, why would it not simply be included it in the qur'an to make it easy? Islam, according to the qur'an is easy, yet according to many muslims, only muslim scholars can deciper what is Islamic because of the many hadiths which are known to be obvious forgeries.

the hadith which talk of 'how to go to the bathroom' are based on how the propeht muhammed,pbuh, did it. as muslims, we must follow the lifestlyes of the prophets as much as possible as the prophets were guided by God.
if you knew exactly how jesus would 'go to the bathroom' would you not do the same? dont you think that the way jesus did it would be the BEST way?

I don't think it was Jesus's purpose to come to earth to show us how to urinate.

Also, if everything Muhammad did was to be an example for muslims, including peeing, according to Muhammad's life, what is the best number of women to marry, and how does this number compare to what the qur'an says.

 

[TheStudent]

in regards to the bible, which word did jesus author,dicate or instruct to be written?
why are books like the gospel of thomas and gospel of barnabas not included in the bible?

you see, it is this SELECTIVE editing of todays Bible that has led it to become a COMPLETELY different book. who was it that decided which books to include? who was it that slaughtered the early 'heretic' Unitarian christians? some of which survive today as Ebonites? who believe that jesus was just a man and prophet? why were they slaughtered?

todays bible is NOT the ORIGINAL Gospel that was given to Jesus. this is fact. jesus spoke aramaic,hewbrew and some say greek. do you not agree that reading todays accepted bibles in any other language but the accelted original will lead to a different understanding of the text?

speaking of the gospel of thomas, it is written as a list of sayings of Jesus. arent the sayings of Jesus the REAL Gospel? and not the extra narrative ADDITIONS of the 'other' gospel writers? have you read any of the gospel of thomas, there are some very interesting verses...

once you understand Algebra, it is simple. until you have real knowledge and understanding of Islam, you will find it difficult. Allah said he will reward you in your struggles.

muhammed was allowed multiple as a favour to him only so as to further the ease and spread of islam. have you forgotten how many wives and concubines Solomon had?

 

[yesha]

you see, it is this SELECTIVE editing of todays Bible that has led it to become a COMPLETELY different book. who was it that decided which books to include? who was it that slaughtered the early 'heretic' Unitarian christians? some of which survive today as Ebonites? who believe that jesus was just a man and prophet? why were they slaughtered?

The bible as it is today is the same as it was in Muhammad's day.
When the qur'an mentions the Injil, it's not referring to some lost work, but the book of the Christians, readily accessible to Christians.

todays bible is NOT the ORIGINAL Gospel that was given to Jesus. this is fact. jesus spoke aramaic,hewbrew and some say greek. do you not agree that reading todays accepted bibles in any other language but the accelted original will lead to a different understanding of the text?

You have many preconceptions of what the Gospel is.
You are judging the NT by your own misconceptions.
If you truely believe that the qur'an is the word of God,
then use it to support your beliefs.

There any many verses showing that the Christians, in Muhammads day, have the Injil,
and that man cannot corrupt God's word,
so show me where in the qur'an it also says that the Christians corrupted God's Word.
This would create some contridictions, so those would have to be explained as well.
Do you know how many hundreds of years went by before a muslim thought of the idea that the Christians had something other then the Injil?

You know, a muslim is suppost to confess that they believe in the Injil, along with the other books, and that they make no distintion between prophets. If you are wrong about the bible, hypothetically speaking, are you even a muslim?

Do you also hold to the belief that all prophets are sinless, perfect examples for humanity?