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The call of the Father.

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wondering

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"Many" are called, out of that "many" , few are "chosen."
Well by the same token , the "many" are not all. The many are chosen out of a larger group who are not chosen, not called out.

Like I said in an earlier post, theirs alot to look at in regards to showing the evidence to properly come to this conclusion. It needs another thread about this specific topic.

But whether we agree on that or not shouldn't hinder the topic of this thread.
What exactly IS the topic of this thread?
You asked if God has always called man to Himself.

This is your O.P. :
Nobody comes to Christ, unless the Father calls them.

I think most would agree, that this calling out from the Father is the beginning of the Salvation journey.

My question to the group, is could the Father call someone out ( say before the scriptures were available to the masses 15th century ) to respond in Faith, even though they have never heard of Christ or the good news of the Gospel?


Are you asking if the Father calls everyone or just some?
If so, the Father calls everyone....if He didn't....those from Romans 1:19-20 that were NOT called would have an excuse...and since NO ONE has an excuse it means EVERYONE that ever lived on earth has been called in one way or another.

Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.



We know that God is a loving Father
1 John 4:8
8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.


We know that He wishes that ALL would be saved
1 Timothy 2:4
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.



But, this salvation has a price to be paid
Luke 14:28-29
28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
29“Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,


Now, a question for you.....
Does God love His creation?
How would He pick the few that are chosen?
Is it arbitrary? Or is there a plan?
 

Watchman 2

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What exactly IS the topic of this thread?
You asked if God has always called man to Himself.

This is your O.P. :
Nobody comes to Christ, unless the Father calls them.

I think most would agree, that this calling out from the Father is the beginning of the Salvation journey.

My question to the group, is could the Father call someone out ( say before the scriptures were available to the masses 15th century ) to respond in Faith, even though they have never heard of Christ or the good news of the Gospel?


Are you asking if the Father calls everyone or just some?
If so, the Father calls everyone....if He didn't....those from Romans 1:19-20 that were NOT called would have an excuse...and since NO ONE has an excuse it means EVERYONE that ever lived on earth has been called in one way or another.

Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.



We know that God is a loving Father
1 John 4:8
8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.


We know that He wishes that ALL would be saved
1 Timothy 2:4
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.



But, this salvation has a price to be paid
Luke 14:28-29
28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
29“Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,


Now, a question for you.....
Does God love His creation?
How would He pick the few that are chosen?
Is it arbitrary? Or is there a plan?
I would suggest you re-read the OP.
 

wondering

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I would suggest you re-read the OP.
Can't answer the simple questions?
No problem.
However, I read very well and will post your question again:

My question to the group, is could the Father call someone out ( say before the scriptures were available to the masses 15th century ) to respond in Faith, even though they have never heard of Christ or the good news of the Gospel?

If Romans 1:19-20 does not answer the above...
then I don't know what will.

And welcome to the forum.
 
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Watchman 2

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Can't answer the simple questions?
No problem.
However, I read very well and will post your question again:

My question to the group, is could the Father call someone out ( say before the scriptures were available to the masses 15th century ) to respond in Faith, even though they have never heard of Christ or the good news of the Gospel?

If Romans 1:19-20 does not answer the above...
then I don't know what will.

And welcome to the forum.
So what is your answer to the Op, yes or no?

Thanks for the welcome.
 

Watchman 2

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When I started this thread, it was asking two basic questions.

1) could God the Father call out someone who doesn't know Christ or the Gospel?

2) If yes, could that called out one respond with saving Faith that could result in recieving the Spirit of Christ?

There is 3 or 4 that say "YES", the Father could call someone out that doesn't know Christ or the Gospel. Of course, that's a no-brainer and I agree with them.

But the second question I asked is geared more towards the point I'm attempting to make, so let's move forward on the second question.

To the 3 or 4 that said yes, we need to establish "how" that called out one could respond in saving Faith. Since we seem to be stalled on an answer to this, let's look at todays understanding of what saving Faith is.

Could this called out one, in that state of being ( not knowing Christ or the Gospel ) fulfill today's understanding of saving Faith? ( Which is "believing" in what Christ says and did on Calvary?)

Of course the obvious answer is no! So what is the answer? The Faith that results in recieving the Spirit of Christ back then, without knowing Christ or the Gospel, should also be the Faith that saves and results in recieving the Spirit of Christ now!
 

wondering

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When I started this thread, it was asking two basic questions.

1) could God the Father call out someone who doesn't know Christ or the Gospel?

2) If yes, could that called out one respond with saving Faith that could result in recieving the Spirit of Christ?

There is 3 or 4 that say "YES", the Father could call someone out that doesn't know Christ or the Gospel. Of course, that's a no-brainer and I agree with them.

But the second question I asked is geared more towards the point I'm attempting to make, so let's move forward on the second question.

To the 3 or 4 that said yes, we need to establish "how" that called out one could respond in saving Faith. Since we seem to be stalled on an answer to this, let's look at todays understanding of what saving Faith is.

Could this called out one, in that state of being ( not knowing Christ or the Gospel ) fulfill today's understanding of saving Faith? ( Which is "believing" in what Christ says and did on Calvary?)

Of course the obvious answer is no! So what is the answer? The Faith that results in recieving the Spirit of Christ back then, without knowing Christ or the Gospel, should also be the Faith that saves and results in recieving the Spirit of Christ now!
Jesus Christ died for every man---
past, present and future.

Through Him, all that believe in God
and worship God and live a life that pleases Him,
will be saved by the blood of Jesus.

If Christ didn't die yet,,,how would they be able to believe?
Your second question doesn't reconcile with the first.
There is only one faith...faith in God.
There is only one sacrifice....one for all mankind.

Christ is God...and God is Christ.
 

Watchman 2

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Jesus Christ died for every man---
past, present and future.

Through Him, all that believe in God
and worship God and live a life that pleases Him,
will be saved by the blood of Jesus.

If Christ didn't die yet,,,how would they be able to believe?
Your second question doesn't reconcile with the first.
There is only one faith...faith in God.
There is only one sacrifice....one for all mankind.

Christ is God...and God is Christ.
I really don't want to try and force you to stay within the parameters of the state of being, or questions being presented. Doubling down on a failed understanding doesn't benefit any of us.

So the question ive asked needs to be answered by those who are brave enough, and truly desire to know Him better.
 

for_his_glory

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Until you can explain what these three mandatory parts are that you are speaking about I can not move forward with our discussion.

I think you have everyone confused on what answer you want us to give you from the OP. I believe many of us have answered your question, but you seem to have a different mind set of what answer you want, I don't know. Why not give us your answer to your OP question and we can all discuss it from there.
 

Watchman 2

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Until you can explain what these three mandatory parts are that you are speaking about I can not move forward with our discussion.

I think you have everyone confused on what answer you want us to give you from the OP. I believe many of us have answered your question, but you seem to have a different mind set of what answer you want, I don't know. Why not give us your answer to your OP question and we can all discuss it from there.
Ya, it's probably time.

The answer to the question," could a called out one in that state of being, respond with saving Faith" is yes!

All we have to do is go to the Greek texts and find the word that defined and communicates what saving Faith is.

This word is "pisteuo" !

Pisteuo is defined as" a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Producing a full acknowledgement of Gods revelation of truth."

Keeping the 3 maditory parts of pisteuo or saving Faith in mind, ( an act, based upon a Belief, sustained by confidence) what does this look like in the state of being we've been discussing, where the called out one doesn't know Christ or the Gospel.

1) The act, a decision to turn his life and will over to God. A personal surrender to Him.

2) based on a Belief, that God will accept the surrendered life.

3) sustained by confidence, with making all the many daily decisions that support the fact that our lives are not ours anymore, but His now.

This is not the same understanding of Faith that the called out ones of today practice. But as you can see, the Greek word pisteuo is a fact, the definition is a fact, and the application is a fact. A fulfillment of saving Faith, without any knowledge of Christ, the Gospel or of the Father either could result in recieving the Spirit of Christ, making Christ, His word, and the promises in His word his.

Questions?
 

Watchman 2

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Thank you for putting up with all the questions so I could make this important point. You were all very understanding!
 

for_his_glory

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Ya, it's probably time.

The answer to the question," could a called out one in that state of being, respond with saving Faith" is yes!

All we have to do is go to the Greek texts and find the word that defined and communicates what saving Faith is.

This word is "pisteuo" !

Pisteuo is defined as" a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Producing a full acknowledgement of Gods revelation of truth."

Keeping the 3 maditory parts of pisteuo or saving Faith in mind, ( an act, based upon a Belief, sustained by confidence) what does this look like in the state of being we've been discussing, where the called out one doesn't know Christ or the Gospel.

1) The act, a decision to turn his life and will over to God. A personal surrender to Him.

2) based on a Belief, that God will accept the surrendered life.

3) sustained by confidence, with making all the many daily decisions that support the fact that our lives are not ours anymore, but His now.

This is not the same understanding of Faith that the called out ones of today practice. But as you can see, the Greek word pisteuo is a fact, the definition is a fact, and the application is a fact. A fulfillment of saving Faith, without any knowledge of Christ, the Gospel or of the Father either could result in recieving the Spirit of Christ, making Christ, His word, and the promises in His word his.

Questions?
I can agree with all three, but why do you say this is not the same understanding practiced today who have answered God's call to salvation?

How can there be a fulfillment of saving faith if one has no knowledge of Christ as Christ is the gospel before the foundation of the world as faith comes by God's grace through that of Christ Jesus.

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word.

How can you have saving faith in something you never heard of before.
 

Watchman 2

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I can agree with all three, but why do you say this is not the same understanding practiced today who have answered God's call to salvation?

How can there be a fulfillment of saving faith if one has no knowledge of Christ as Christ is the gospel before the foundation of the world as faith comes by God's grace through that of Christ Jesus.

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word.

How can you have saving faith in something you never heard of before.
So we're starting from the beginning again?

First you said yes, that a person could respond with saving Faith, not knowing Christ or the Gospel.

Then , when I last heard, you were on the fence. I asked if you changed your mind, and you never answered.
 

Watchman 2

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True NT saving Faith that's results in recieving the Spirit of Christ has nothing to do with "believing" in the word of God or His promises. Saving Faith must be in the person of God Himself, a real living person.

The same process of Faithing into God done without someone knowing Christ or His word, is the same process that should be fulfilled today.
 

wondering

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I really don't want to try and force you to stay within the parameters of the state of being, or questions being presented. Doubling down on a failed understanding doesn't benefit any of us.

So the question ive asked needs to be answered by those who are brave enough, and truly desire to know Him better.
I'll withdraw from this conversation since you apparently cannot understand what I'm communicating to you since I happen to agree with your post no. 110.

And, BTW, everyone on this thread knows what the word PISTEUO means.

It's just interesting that you think I have a failed understanding when what I posted is ONLY SCRIPTURE and no personal opinion of mine.
 

wondering

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I can agree with all three, but why do you say this is not the same understanding practiced today who have answered God's call to salvation?

How can there be a fulfillment of saving faith if one has no knowledge of Christ as Christ is the gospel before the foundation of the world as faith comes by God's grace through that of Christ Jesus.

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word.

How can you have saving faith in something you never heard of before.
FHG,
How do YOU explain Romans 1:19-20?
 

Watchman 2

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I'll withdraw from this conversation since you apparently cannot understand what I'm communicating to you since I happen to agree with your post no. 110.

And, BTW, everyone on this thread knows what the word PISTEUO means.

It's just interesting that you think I have a failed understanding when what I posted is ONLY SCRIPTURE and no personal opinion of mine.
What personal opinion?

I've only given the correct Greek word and it's correct definition.
The example was based in fact also.

Question? Do you understand salvation to be something that happens in a moment of time, where you " believe then recieve" the Spirit of Christ?
 

Watchman 2

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I'll withdraw from this conversation since you apparently cannot understand what I'm communicating to you since I happen to agree with your post no. 110.

And, BTW, everyone on this thread knows what the word PISTEUO means.

It's just interesting that you think I have a failed understanding when what I posted is ONLY SCRIPTURE and no personal opinion of mine.
Everyone on this thread knows what "pisteuo" means?

That is truly the most ridiculous thing anyone has ever said to me in a discussion site.

Although I wish that were true, after 25 years of looking for those who understood pisteuo, it's definition, and have successfully applied it, I've never found even one!

Maybe we can remedy that here!
 

Hospes

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Ya, it's probably time.

The answer to the question," could a called out one in that state of being, respond with saving Faith" is yes!

All we have to do is go to the Greek texts and find the word that defined and communicates what saving Faith is.

This word is "pisteuo" !

Pisteuo is defined as" a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Producing a full acknowledgement of Gods revelation of truth."

Keeping the 3 maditory parts of pisteuo or saving Faith in mind, ( an act, based upon a Belief, sustained by confidence) what does this look like in the state of being we've been discussing, where the called out one doesn't know Christ or the Gospel.

1) The act, a decision to turn his life and will over to God. A personal surrender to Him.

2) based on a Belief, that God will accept the surrendered life.

3) sustained by confidence, with making all the many daily decisions that support the fact that our lives are not ours anymore, but His now.

This is not the same understanding of Faith that the called out ones of today practice. But as you can see, the Greek word pisteuo is a fact, the definition is a fact, and the application is a fact. A fulfillment of saving Faith, without any knowledge of Christ, the Gospel or of the Father either could result in recieving the Spirit of Christ, making Christ, His word, and the promises in His word his.

Questions?
You give a very specific definition to a greek word. I'm a bit baffled when applying the definition to some of the scriptures using the word. A few instances:
Matthew 21:32
For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.
Matthew 24:23–26
Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
Luke 1:20 (ESV)
And behold, you will be silent and unable to speak until the day that these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time.”
Romans 6:8 (ESV)
Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

When I try to apply your definition to the word in these passages, I find it akin to applying a wrong key to a lock or getting Cinderella's step-sisters' foot into the slipper.

Do you think maybe the word broadly means simply the same as the English words for "belief" and "convinced?"
 

Watchman 2

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You give a very specific definition to a greek word. I'm a bit baffled when applying the definition to some of the scriptures using the word. A few instances:
Matthew 21:32
For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.
Matthew 24:23–26
Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
Luke 1:20 (ESV)
And behold, you will be silent and unable to speak until the day that these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time.”
Romans 6:8 (ESV)
Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

When I try to apply your definition to the word in these passages, I find it akin to applying a wrong key to a lock or getting Cinderella's step-sisters' foot into the slipper.

Do you think maybe the word broadly means simply the same as the English words for "belief" and "convinced?"
No. Pisteuo is an act, based upon a Belief, sustained by confidence. Pisteuo isn't just an application of Faith in relationship to God, we apply these these 3 aspects of pisteuo hundreds of times a day with hundreds of different " objects" of Faith.


Keep in mind the English translators fashioned the sentences to use the mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing. And this was because the English language doesn't have the words faithe, faither, and faithing. Without these words and there accepted definitions, the knowledge of this doesn't exist anymore. It can only be attempted to be taught with multiple complete sentences, instead of one word.

My 21:32
For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.

In every case the where the word "believe" is used in all the scriptures you shared, it should read ," faithed in him." Along with a correct understanding of how that word faithed is defined.

I was thinking about starting a thread to look at this word pisteuo in depth. Would you be interested?
 
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