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The Context of Matthew 24 and 25

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JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
, The context of discussion in Matthew 24 and Matthew 25 is "The return of Jesus Christ" aka the coming of the Son of Man.

[FONT=&quot]Where is the phrase destruction of the temple or the temple destroyed, or Sanctuary destroyed in Matthew 24 or 25?

The Lord said these words -"Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Yet In His answer we don't find the phrase Temple Destroyed, Sanctuary Destroyed, as in Daniel, or [FONT=&quot] not one stone shall be left here upon another[/FONT]
[/FONT].

We do find it in Luke 21, but not Matthew 24 or 25.
[FONT=&quot]
The prophecy in Daniel 9 verse 26 -
And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If someone read Matthew 24 how would they understand that the temple was destroyed from The Lord's answer to His disciples questions.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]On the other hand, below are the scriptures that refer to the context of the entire Olivet Discourse.
[/FONT]

The return of Jesus Christ language in Matthew 24 and 25. -

... what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?

Matthew 24 -

27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.


30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.


42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.


50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 25 -

13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.


No where is there mention of the destruction of the temple in the Olivet Discourse.


JLB


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
 

[FONT=&quot]If someone read Matthew 24 how would they understand that the temple was destroyed from The Lord's answer to His disciples questions.[/FONT]


Why do you have to understand from the answer when the question is right there? When will the temple be destroyed? Verse 15 does the job. It speaks of the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place and it references Daniel which mentions the destruction of the temple. And, why can't we use Luke 21?

Your problem is that you insist on believing that "coming" means a physical return. The Apostles asked when will the temple be destroyed and what will the sign of his coming be. The Apostles associated the destruction of the Temple with Christ's coming. That's because "coming" means judgement. And, it would necessarily be judgement for the temple to be destroyed. So, every time Jesus mentions "coming", he's referring to the destruction of the Temple and ending the Temple age.
 
Your problem is that you insist on believing that "coming" means a physical return.
Futurists will never believe Christ is on His throne until they can see Him sitting on it in Jerusalem. The futurist mindset is no different than that of the Scribes and Pharisees who were looking for Christ to be the savior that delivered them from Rome.

I have no doubt that these same futurists, who daily "crucify" preterists for their beliefs on boards like these all over the world, would treat Christ the same way the Pharisees did, as both groups are (were) incapable of looking past their own carnal needs and interests.
 
You should have learned by now that the synoptic gospels were given as a means to better understand Christ's teaching. It does violence to the Word when somebody ignores one gospel in favor of another, in order to elevate a supposed discrepancy into doctrine.:nono2
 
Why do you have to understand from the answer when the question is right there? When will the temple be destroyed? Verse 15 does the job. It speaks of the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place and it references Daniel which mentions the destruction of the temple. And, why can't we use Luke 21?

Your problem is that you insist on believing that "coming" means a physical return. The Apostles asked when will the temple be destroyed and what will the sign of his coming be. The Apostles associated the destruction of the Temple with Christ's coming. That's because "coming" means judgement. And, it would necessarily be judgement for the temple to be destroyed. So, every time Jesus mentions "coming", he's referring to the destruction of the Temple and ending the Temple age.

Lots of Commentary, No scripture.
And, why can't we use Luke 21?
The topic of this discussion is - The Context of Matthew 24 and 25

If you want to start a thread on Luke 21 then go ahead.

If the destruction of the temple was the context of Matthew 24 and 25 don't you think Jesus would have mentioned it at least once in all of His discourse that Matthew records.


Your problem is that you insist on believing that "coming" means a physical return.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And again -

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

Verse 31 is crystal clear, Jesus Christ physically returns with all the nations gathered before Him.


34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'

In these verse's we see a conversation between the Lord Jesus and His righteous ones, as the nations are before Him.

These verse's are clear the Lord physically returns and separate the sheep from the goats and speaks with His people here on earth.


Verse 15 does the job. It speaks of the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place and it references Daniel which mentions the destruction of the temple.
Let's see from Daniel, since you didn't bother to show the scripture -

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

This verse describes the destruction of the city and the sanctuary.

The verse The Lord was quoting was verse 27 -

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

The destruction of the temple occurred in the previous verse 26. In verse 27 the scripture teaches us of another "week" seven year time-frame in which "sacrifices and offerings" are put to an end and where the abomination of desolation takes place.

Notice the phrase "shall be one who makes desolate" this refers to the defilement by a person "standing in the holy place" as Jesus says.


So by the language of Jesus and Daniel the abomination of Desolation by the defiling action of "one" "standing in the holy place" takes place "after" the city and sanctuary are destroyed.


  • Abomination of Desolation takes place after the "city and sanctuary are destroyed.
  • The abomination of desolation refers to defilement not physical destruction.


JLB





 
It can be problematic to approach scriptural understandings if not approached 'honestly.'

I will honestly say I don't always do 'sheep works' and often, by not doing so, that means I also do 'goat works.'

Therein lies part of the mystery of each tail/tale, so to speak.

I also find continuing great real life working interest in Jesus' Sight that those who did do 'sheep works' did not perceive they were doing so unto HIM, and I don't consider that those working sheep works (or not) were only doing so with 'christians.'

God in Christ Is, without any doubt in my own mind, hidden within the poor, the downtrodden, the naked, the prisoners, the sick... the least of 'our' brethren. That probably encompasses at least 99% of our present world.

Isaiah 63:9
In all their affliction he was afflicted

A solid Divine Promise to ALL sheep workers, even 'sometimes' truthfully admitted 'goat workers' who desire to see and speak honestly and DO BETTER:

Isaiah 58:10
And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noon day

We will all be quite surprised at the location of both sheep and goat and their 'identities.' Though it has been set before our eyes for hundreds of centuries in yer basic black on white.

s
 
You should have learned by now that the synoptic gospels were given as a means to better understand Christ's teaching. It does violence to the Word when somebody ignores one gospel in favor of another, in order to elevate a supposed discrepancy into doctrine.:nono2


You should have learned by now that there a four separate Gospels given by four different people to bring a fuller perspective to what Jesus was teaching.

Paul said we "see" in part, Matthew records what Jesus said from the perspective that he heard.

Luke records a different perspective from Matthew on the subject.

For good reason Luke records one question while Mathew records two distinct and different questions.

Luke records primarily about the destruction of the temple.

Matthew
records Jesus teaching about His coming and the end of the age.

Why don't we discuss these different perspectives rather that ignore them?


JLB
 
Lots of Commentary, No scripture.

That's because you edited out my reference to Matthew 24:15 (which mentions the "holy place", the Temple, and Daniel's prophecy which includes the destruction of the Temple). And, you are also - without any justification - ignoring the subject and the question for Jesus' answer given in verses 1, 2, and 3 of Matthew 24 (Temple, Temple, Temple). And, you are ruling Luke 21 off limits (a parallel account about the Temple).

Jesus' entire answer, over and over, describes judgement. A judgement that provides for the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple - war. You are ignoring most of what Jesus said.

If the destruction of the temple was the context of Matthew 24 and 25 don't you think Jesus would have mentioned it at least once in all of His discourse that Matthew records.


Jesus is focusing on the bigger picture than the Temple building. The Apostles recognized that the destruction of the Temple was part of something bigger.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Your case rests on ignoring that glaringly symbolic expression is symbolic.

Let's see from Daniel, since you didn't bother to show the scripture - ...

The destruction of the temple occurred in the previous verse 26. In verse 27 the scripture teaches us of another "week" seven year time-frame in which "sacrifices and offerings" are put to an end and where the abomination of desolation takes place.


You don't think sacrifice continued after the destruction of the Temple (and Jerusalem), do you? V27 just gives more detail to V26. Sacrifices are ended by the destruction of the Temple. The Jewish rebellion that led to the Temple's destruction started about three and a half years before the Temple's destruction. The Temple was destroyed in the middle of a week of seven years. The rebellion wasn't completely over until about three and a half years after the destruction of the Temple.

You should boast of Daniel's remarkable prophecy, rather than destroying it with your Futurist doctrine.

Notice the phrase "shall be one who makes desolate" this refers to the defilement by a person "standing in the holy place" as Jesus says.

It was Titus who stood in the Holy Place, after its destruction, and declared himself to be the most high. And, had his men worship him.
 
That's because you edited out my reference to Matthew 24:15 (which mentions the "holy place", the Temple, and Daniel's prophecy which includes the destruction of the Temple). And, you are also - without any justification - ignoring the subject and the question for Jesus' answer given in verses 1, 2, and 3 of Matthew 24 (Temple, Temple, Temple). And, you are ruling Luke 21 off limits (a parallel account about the Temple).

Jesus' entire answer, over and over, describes judgement. A judgement that provides for the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple - war. You are ignoring most of what Jesus said.



Jesus is focusing on the bigger picture than the Temple building. The Apostles recognized that the destruction of the Temple was part of something bigger.



Your case rests on ignoring that glaringly symbolic expression is symbolic.



You don't think sacrifice continued after the destruction of the Temple (and Jerusalem), do you? V27 just gives more detail to V26. Sacrifices are ended by the destruction of the Temple. The Jewish rebellion that led to the Temple's destruction started about three and a half years before the Temple's destruction. The Temple was destroyed in the middle of a week of seven years. The rebellion wasn't completely over until about three and a half years after the destruction of the Temple.

You should boast of Daniel's remarkable prophecy, rather than destroying it with your Futurist doctrine.



It was Titus who stood in the Holy Place, after its destruction, and declared himself to be the most high. And, had his men worship him.


Edited it out? I will copy and paste it again for you.


Verse 15 does the job. It speaks of the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place and it references Daniel which mentions the destruction of the temple.
Let's see from Daniel, since you didn't bother to show the scripture -

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

This verse describes the destruction of the city and the sanctuary.

The verse The Lord was quoting was verse 27 -

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

The destruction of the temple occurred in the previous verse 26. In verse 27 the scripture teaches us of another "week" seven year time-frame in which "sacrifices and offerings" are put to an end and where the abomination of desolation takes place.

Notice the phrase "shall be one who makes desolate" this refers to the defilement by a person "standing in the holy place" as Jesus says.


So by the language of Jesus and Daniel the abomination of Desolation by the defiling action of "one" "standing in the holy place" takes place "after" the city and sanctuary are destroyed.


  • Abomination of Desolation takes place after the "city and sanctuary are destroyed.
  • The abomination of desolation refers to defilement not physical destruction.
Matthew 24:15 has nothing to do with the destruction of the temple as you have been clearly shown.


You continually avoid the context of discussion because there are no scriptures in Jesus answer that have language associated with the destruction of the temple.

None!

JLB
 
Where is the phrase destruction of the temple or the temple destroyed, or Sanctuary destroyed in Matthew 24 or 25?

Where is the phrase return of the Christ or the Christ returned , or Sanctuary destroyed in Matthew 24 or 25?
 
Where is the phrase destruction of the temple or the temple destroyed, or Sanctuary destroyed in Matthew 24 or 25?

Where is the phrase return of the Christ or the Christ returned , or Sanctuary destroyed in Matthew 24 or 25?


The context of discussion in Matthew 24 and Matthew 25 is "The return of Jesus Christ" aka the coming of the Son of Man.

[FONT=&quot]Where is the phrase destruction of the temple or the temple destroyed, or Sanctuary destroyed in Matthew 24 or 25?

The Lord said these words -"Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Yet In His answer we don't find the phrase Temple Destroyed, Sanctuary Destroyed, as in Daniel, or [FONT=&quot] not one stone shall be left here upon another[/FONT]
[/FONT].

We do find it in Luke 21, but not Matthew 24 or 25.
[FONT=&quot]
The prophecy in Daniel 9 verse 26 -
And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If someone read Matthew 24 how would they understand that the temple was destroyed from The Lord's answer to His disciples questions.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]On the other hand, below are the scriptures that refer to the context of the entire Olivet Discourse.
[/FONT]

The return of Jesus Christ language in Matthew 24 and 25. -

... what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?

Matthew 24 -

27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.


30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.


42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.


50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 25 -

13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.


No where is there mention of the destruction of the temple in the Olivet Discourse.

JLB
 
Why ,do you think, Jesus cared to speak to them of an event thousands of years future that would have no connection or bearing upon His audience?

I suggest you'll find overall context is established in chapter 21 and carries through and has little if anything to do with events as yet future. You'll fine it all revolves around the judgement and the reasons for it.
 
The context of discussion in Matthew 24 and Matthew 25 is "The return of Jesus Christ" aka the coming of the Son of Man.

Where does any portion of M24-25 say 'return' ?
 
The Lord said these words -"Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Yet In His answer we don't find the phrase Temple Destroyed, Sanctuary Destroyed, as in Daniel, or [FONT=&quot] not one stone shall be left here upon another[/FONT][/B][/SIZE][/FONT].

So, you think Jesus forget the question about the destruction of the temple? Yet, Jesus's answer in Matthew 24 is all about destruction, save for a some comments on spiritual matters.
 
So, you think Jesus forget the question about the destruction of the temple? Yet, Jesus's answer in Matthew 24 is all about destruction, save for a some comments on spiritual matters.

That is what this thread is about.

Establishing the context of Matthew 24 and 25, AKA The Olivet Discourse.


3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

Here are the two questions asked of Him -


  1. "Tell us, when will these things be?
  2. And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.


In verse 4 and 5 Jesus is referencing question 2.


6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the endis not yet.


Verse 6 Jesus is referencing question 2 which contains the language of the end of the age and is associated with His coming.


7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.


Verse 7 -14 is referencing question 2 which contains the language of the end of the age and is associated with His coming.


15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together


Verse 15 -28 is referencing question 2 which is clearly language of His coming. Carries a warning to not be deceive by those who will come before Him as imposters. Starting with v 15 the Imposter standing in the holy place.


29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


v. 29 - 31 is referencing question 2 with language of His coming.


to be continued ...

So far no mention of The city and sanctuary being destroyed as Daniel 9:26 speaks of.

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.


JLB
 
Where is the phrase destruction of the temple or the temple destroyed, or Sanctuary destroyed in Matthew 24 or 25?

Where is the phrase return of the Christ or the Christ returned , or Sanctuary destroyed in Matthew 24 or 25?

The sanctuary is destroyed right here:

Matthew 25:32
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats


 
The sanctuary is destroyed right here:

Matthew 25:32
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats




Not a word in The Lord's Discourse about the Temple being destroyed in Matthew 24 and 25. The reason is the temple destroyed has nothing what so ever to do with His return!


JLB
 
Not a word in The Lord's Discourse about the Temple being destroyed in Matthew 24 and 25. The reason is the temple destroyed has nothing what so ever to do with His return!


JLB

Of course the 'temple' desecration is shown in Matt. 25 sheep/goat separation as well as the 'cleansing' of same via division.

If you or any see truthfully, that we 'all' do goatworks, the place of separation should be very clear, and seen as 'internal' not external.

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2 Thessalonians 1:10
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

It is and will remain problematic to view ones 'self' as apart from being His Body Member.

s
 
Question: "Who divided the Bible into chapters and verses? Why and when was it done?"

Answer: When the books of the Bible were originally written, they did not contain chapter or verse references. The Bible was divided into chapters and verses to help us find Scriptures more quickly and easily. It is much easier to find "John chapter 3, verse 16" than it is to find "for God so loved the world..." In a few places, chapter breaks are poorly placed and as a result divide content that should flow together. Overall, though, the chapter and verse divisions are very helpful.

The chapter divisions commonly used today were developed by Stephen Langton, an Archbishop of Canterbury. Langton put the modern chapter divisions into place in around A.D. 1227. The Wycliffe English Bible of 1382 was the first Bible to use this chapter pattern. Since the Wycliffe Bible, nearly all Bible translations have followed Langton's chapter divisions.

The Hebrew Old Testament was divided into verses by a Jewish rabbi by the name of Nathan in A.D. 1448. Robert Estienne, who was also known as Stephanus, was the first to divide the New Testament into standard numbered verses, in 1555. Stephanus essentially used Nathan's verse divisions for the Old Testament. Since that time, beginning with the Geneva Bible, the chapter and verse divisions employed by Stephanus have been accepted into nearly all the Bible versions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I 'dropped' the addy to where i found this basic info... dumb ol computer is making me more crazy
 
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