The Context of Matthew 24 and 25

[Pastor Dave]

Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, Matthew 23:1


1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." 3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Matthew 24:1-3



Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes - Matthew 23

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, -Matthew 24


Either you are being deceptive and twisting the scriptures or you are just ignorant of the scriptures and the context, either way -

You couldn't be more wrong!

JLB

You're not being honest and you're looking foir an excuse not to have to believe it.

1) He BEGAN Matt 23, by speaking to the multitudes. The multitudes THEN, NOT TODAY!

2) Read from Matt 23:14 and see to whom He had turned His attention. It was the scribes and Pharisees, just as I said it was.

3) Nothing that you said negates the fact that Jesus said it was about that same generation, in both Matt 23 & 24.

4) Nothing you said negates the fact that I proved that the temple was indeed mentioned and you crack me up, because you have spent years talking about how some rebuilt temple is supposed to be destroyed. But now that it is proved to you that Jesus was talking about events then and it is proved to you that the temple that existed then was destroyed, which you did not know because you are ignorant of their history, now, all of the sudden, you want to pretend that you never believed that the temple was even mentioned! You serve your doctrine and do not care what the Scriptures actually say! You toss the Scriptures aside and twist and mangle them, whenever they get in the way of your doctrine!

Isn't it interesting how Futurists keep waffling on their doctrine/what they believe in the face of facts and yet, still continue to try to claim that they haven't changed their beliefs!

I have a news flash for you; When you keep changing your belief to try to get around things that you are shown, then it isn't the belief that you started out the discussion with any more. And that means that whether you want to admit it or not, you no longer believe the doctrine you claimed was truth!

So now the question becomes; Will you acknowledge this truth? Or will you make yourself look even more ridiculous by insisting that you still do believe that same doctrine, as if no one here has noticed the rapid changes that you have been forced to make in your belief system, sir?

5) You have repeatedly ignored everything I have shown you, because you are all about your doctrine and you began reading the Bible by first assuming it's all about you, today. That's what you were told before you even opened a Bible! And you were taught that constantly! And so, all you have ever studied, is a doctrine, not the Scriptures. The only time you ever looked at the Bible, was to view it thru the lens of that doctrine, to make it fit that doctrine and anything that got in the way of that doctrine, you tossed aside, just like you're trying to do now!

You're hopping from Scripture to Scripture and you're being answered right on point, every time! And when you are, instead of responding to each point made in response on point, you ignore what you are shown because it disproves your claim and you paste in something else instead, or jump to something else, etc., etc.. But it's time to deal with what you are shown, sir!

Jesus speaking to the multitudes, does NOT make the Bible say that it's all about you today! How could you even think that, dude?!

And as I said, Jesus turned His attention to the scribes and Pharisees, just as I said He did and you can read that for yourself, as I said, starting in Matt 23:14.

And you also ignored Luke 21:20-22 that I referred to. In it, Jesus explicitly states that it will be Jerusalem that is "desolated". And this being the parallel account of Matt 24 and the temple being destroyed being mentioned in Matt 24, I'm sorry, but there's no way you're going to escape the fact that the temple being destroyed is indeed discussed!

And furthermore, history shows us that in 70 AD, during the Jewish War, the Roman armies burned the temple. And afterward, they tore it apart, stone by stone, to retrieve the melted gold that ran in between the stones, thus fulfilling Jesus' words, that "not one stone would be left upon another".

Now can you show us where Jesus said; "But skip it the first time it happens, guys."?

Now do you want me to tell you what your next position will be? I can if you want, because I already know. You Futurists always offer the same, lame arguments to try to get around the facts and usually in the same order. And you're not going to accept the truth. Those are the odds, since it's rare that a Futurist will. They have way too much invested in thinking that it's all about them today and about THIS world, which is where they want to spend eternity. They do not want to hear that eternity for the believer is spent in Heaven. They love THIS WORLD too much to let go of it and they're afraid to die and so, contrary to what Jesus said, they try their hardest to hang on to this life and this world.

But then again, Jesus did say that "many are called, but few are chosen".

FYI, being "chosen" means actually believing what He said.

Do you believe Him? Or what you wish were true, because you're attached to this life; this world?

One thing is for sure... twisting and ignoring Scripture to fit your worldly needs, does not qualify as "believing Him".

 

[Pastor Dave]

Okay, if you want to believe the temple wasn't destroyed in the attack on Jerusalem, then that is your choice.


JLB

Ya know, I do not understand you. One minute your posts appear to be against the idea of things being fulfilled and the next, you appear to be posting for this idea. This has been going on since I first saw your posts.

 

[Pastor Dave]

Luke 21 never explicitly mentions the destruction of the temple. (I mean, after Luke 21:5-6.)

However, we see that (very likely) the subject is picked up again implicitly in Luke 21:20-24.

So that Matthew 24 never explicitly mentions the destruction of the temple... so what? We can easily see it as implied, just as with Luke 21.


Jesus was never asked to give more description of the event. Jesus was asked about the timing of the event. ("Tell us, when shall these things be?")

You complain that Jesus doesn't provide something in the chapter, when Jesus wasn't asked for that anyway!

Please understand thatI am not blasting *you* in this message. I just use caps and exclamation marks for emphasis and I am only showing you some facts. In fact, I am not even speaking to what your personal position is on these issues.

Anyway, to respond.....

Actually, the destruction of the temple is explicitly mentioned and it is mentioned by Jesus Himself. As I said, Matt 24 is a continuation of Matt 23, not a separate event. They take place at the same time. The blasting of the scribes and Pharisees in the temple takes place and then they walk up the mount. In fact, it is what Jesus said in the temple, that prompted the disciples' questions.

Read Matt 23:34-48. In it, Jesus specifically states that the temple will be destroyed. And it is that, that the disciples specifically ask about in Matt 24 and it is that which Jesus is talking about, when He says; "not one stone will be left upon another". And in both chapters, He puts it on them, living then;

Matt 23:14a,34-38

14a) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
34) Therefore, indeed, I send YOU prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them YOU will kill and crucify, and some of them YOU will scourge in YOUR SYNAGOGUES and persecute from city to city,
35) that ON YOU may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36) Assuredly, I say to YOU, all these things will come upon THIS generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
38) See! Your HOUSE is left to YOU desolate;

House = Temple

And note that it talks about scourging them and the judgments being left to the Mosaic religious organization, not some modern court system. This is about then, not today! And Jesus (see above) clearly states that it is about THEM, THEN. The Futurists always whine about how we're supposed to be litteral, so why aren't they literal with the simple time statements? Why do they get literal with the super sci-fi sounding "how" statements and then spiritualize away the clear and simple, basic "when" statements? And then ignore it when they are shown that there are *fulfilled* prophecies in the OT that use the same exact language, proving that it is symbolic language (riding clouds)? Why is it that for the Futurist, Scripture interprets Scripture, except for when it interferes with their end times doctrine???

And what does it show us, beginning with the beginning of Acts, just a few chapters in? The persecution of Peter and others and the stoning of Stephen, with Paul right there, cheering it on!

The truth that Futurists aren't even aware of, is that it was not the Romans who persecuted Christians. Not until Nero. In fact, the Romans protected Christians. They looked at Christianity as just another sect of Judaism and couldn't understand why these people were being persecuted by the Jews.

The truth is, it was THE JEWS who were persecuting Christians. We must read the NT carefully and for true understanding of the events and not thru doctrinal glasses, amen? And in that reading, we find that it was the Jews doing the persecuting, not the Romans. In fact, it was the Romans who saved Paul from the band of Jews who were hired to kill Paul, remember?

It is also worth noting, that the Greek word translated into "assuredly" there in Matt 23:36 above and in Matt 24:34 below, uses great emphasis! It is as if Jesus is placing all of His credibility upon this event!

I.e., if this does not happen when and as He described, then you can believe that He was a phoney! "This event will tell you if I am for real!". And He said it to THEM. He told THEM to watch for it!

Matt 24:1-3

1) Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the BUILDINGS OF THE TEMPLE.
2) And Jesus said to them, Do you not see all THESE THINGS? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3) Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?
34) Assuredly, I say to you, THIS generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place!

There's that word again!

Luke 21:20-22

20) But when YOU see JERUSALEM surrounded by armies, then know that ITS desolation is near.
21) Then let those who are IN JUDEA flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart and let not those who are in the country enter her.
22) For THESE are the days of vengeance, that ALL THINGS which are WRITTEN may BE FULFILLED.

Now I think that's pretty darn clear!

And FYI, as a matter of history, the Romans went thru Judea on their way to Jerusalem and took out the cities along the way. In fact, that's how they got Josephus.

And as a matter of history, the Christians in Jerusalem did flee. They went to a city called "Pella". They knew that this was what Jesus was talking about and they did not sit around, thinking that the city could not be taken (Jerusalem was about the best city in the world to be in, for defense against an enemy). Rather, they BELIEVED JESUS and they fled!

It was very clearly about the destruction of the temple; the removal of the Mosaic economy and the physical ushering in of the New Covenant, that spiritually, had already been in place. Hebrews also tells us that this is what "the end" was about and states that it was about to happen and Hebrews, contrary to liberal (supposed) "scholarship", Hebrews was written prior to 70 AD;

"In that He says, A new COVENANT, He has made the first OBSOLETE. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is READY TO VANISH AWAY" - Hebrews 8:13

And it did, in 70 AD! And no, the Mosaic Law with a temple for animal sacrifices for sins, which is the only reason the temple is built, is not coming back! The Lord, in this Scripture, tells us that it is "OBSOLETE"!

Anyway, just some stuff to show that yes indeed, the destruction of the temple is mentioned by Jesus.

 

[Zinc]

Actually, the destruction of the temple is explicitly mentioned and it is mentioned by Jesus Himself. As I said, Matt 24 is a continuation of Matt 23, not a separate event. They take place at the same time. The blasting of the scribes and Pharisees in the temple takes place and then they walk up the mount. In fact, it is what Jesus said in the temple, that prompted the disciples' questions.

Read Matt 23:34-48. In it, Jesus specifically states that the temple will be destroyed. And it is that, that the disciples specifically ask about in Matt 24 and it is that which Jesus is talking about, when He says; "not one stone will be left upon another".

I was talking about after the start of the Olivet Discourse.

The temple destruction is obviously "explicitly mentioned" at the beginning.

 

[Pastor Dave]

I was talking about after the start of the Olivet Discourse.

The temple destruction is obviously "explicitly mentioned" at the beginning.

Well, not according to "JLB".

But I didn't see anything about it being only about the beginning of His discourse and the discussion being only about after that mention at the beginning of His discourse.

But even so, while people can debate whether the mention is "explicit" or not, it actually is mentioned again, when Jesus states that all of the things that He mentioned would occur within that same generation, in v34. Certainly "all these things" includes the destruction of the temple, since He mentioned it and included "all" of the things that He mentioned.

It certainly doesn't make sense to view everything _except_ His statement about the temple in that "all".

 

[JLB]

The point is (and it seems you want to duck it) is that the temple destruction is NEVER explicitly mentioned in Luke 21.

So why demand such a thing for Matthew 24?

Here is the language from Luke 21 -


20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:20

Which is what Daniel spoke of -

And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.


That language is not found in Matthew, or any reference to the destruction of the city and sanctuary!

If it is, then please show me in Jesus' Olivet Discourse [Matthew 24:4 - Matthew 25:46] where He mentions the destruction of the city and sanctuary!

If you choose to believe that the temple was not destroyed when the city trampled by Gentiles, then that is your choice!

The point is to gain understanding from Daniel.

When I look at the language in Daniel 9, I see language from verse 26 [Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary] in Luke 21, but not in Matthew 24 and 25.

I see language associated with verse 27 of Daniel 9 in Matthew 24.

When you read Daniel 12, we see the language of -

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

is associated with the resurrection and the time of the end.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Well, not according to "JLB".

But I didn't see anything about it being only about the beginning of His discourse and the discussion being only about after that mention at the beginning of His discourse.

But even so, while people can debate whether the mention is "explicit" or not, it actually is mentioned again, when Jesus states that all of the things that He mentioned would occur within that same generation, in v34. Certainly "all these things" includes the destruction of the temple, since He mentioned it and included "all" of the things that He mentioned.

It certainly doesn't make sense to view everything _except_ His statement about the temple in that "all".

when Jesus states that all of the things that He mentioned would occur within that same generation, in v34. Certainly "all these things" includes the destruction of the temple,

34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.


The problem with your statement is, the destruction of the city and sanctuary are not mentioned in His Discourse.

So, the conclusion is, you are trying to associate "the destruction of the city and sanctuary", with all these things, when the language of destruction does not exist in Jesus' comments about the signs He was asked about.

The language does exist in Luke 21, however He was not asked about His coming and the end of the age, in Luke!

In Matthew, it is clear, the generation that sees the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, will not pass away...


JLB

 

[reba]

Dave,

I'm sorry to seem so harsh, but sometimes that's what people need, to get their noggin working.

Little quips like the one i quoted here will not allow you to continue to be so very rude. I have given you some time to adjust to the rules. So far you have shown no willingness to do so... This was the last edit without infractions.

 

[n2thelight]

II Timothy 2:16 "But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness."

"Profane and vain babblings" are all those things spoken that are empty from any of the wisdom from God's Word. The word "vain" means "empty".

Amos 8:11 "Behold the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord."

II Timothy 2:18 "Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already, and overthrow the faith of some."

II Timothy 2:19 "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal,The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

 

[Stormcrow]

Dave...

Here is a blog I started on Matthew 24 a couple of years ago. Any input would be appreciated.

http://stormcrow1.wordpress.com/

 

[JLB]

The Abomination of Desolation has nothing to do with the destruction of "the city and sanctuary".

The term is used verbatim in Daniel 12 and is associated with the time of the end and the resurrection of the dead!

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Daniel 12:11

Furthermore, one can see the unique time frame of 3 1/2 years surrounding this this phrase as well. This time frame is gets its meaning from Daniel 9:27 which is in the middle of Daniels 70 th week.

This time frame is in no way associated with the events of 70 AD.

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

• after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off - 33 AD
• destroy the city and the sanctuary. - 70 AD
  

The events of 70 AD are laid out in Daniels 70 week prophecy so as to clearly illuminate this important truth!

This Chronological prophecy has progressed to the year 70 AD, yet the 70th week has not occurred!


27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

It is some time after the events of 70 Ad that this "Abomination of Desolation" occurs.

For good reason. we see from Daniel 12 it is associated with the end time and the resurrection, which spontaneously happens at the second coming of Jesus Christ!

It is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself who destroys the "one" who causes this Abomination of Desolation as Paul writes -

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-10

The Abomination of Desolation is not associated with the events of 70 AD!

Let the reader understand!


JLB

 

[Zinc]

If it is, then please show me in Jesus' Olivet Discourse [Matthew 24:4 - Matthew 25:46] where He mentions the destruction of the city and sanctuary!

As I keep on telling you, you don't find the temple's destruction explicitly mentioned in EITHER Matthew 24 or Luke 21.

So what? The subject can still be in view. It can still be implied.

If you choose to believe that the temple was not destroyed when the city trampled by Gentiles, then that is your choice!

Oh, I believe the subject is implicitly in view. Just the same as with Matthew 24.

Neither chapter explicitly mentions the destruction of the temple. Both chapters, however, have it in view.

 

[JLB]

The Language of Daniel 9:26 is "city and sanctuary"!

There is no mention of the destruction of the city and sanctuary in Matthew, however we do find it in Luke.

JLB

 

[Stormcrow]

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 (NKJV)

the lawless one

Now no place of Galilee remained to be taken but the small city of Gischala, whose multitude yet were desirous of peace; for they were generally husbandmen, and always applied themselves to cultivate the fruits of the earth. However, there were a great number that belonged to a band of robbers, that were already corrupted, and had crept in among them, and some of the governing part of the citizens were sick of the same distemper. It was John, the son of a certain man whose name was Levi, that drew them into this rebellion, and encouraged them in it. He was a cunning knave, and of a temper that could put on various shapes; very rash in expecting great things, and very sagacious in bringing about what he hoped for. It was known to every body that he was fond of war, in order to thrust himself into authority...

with all unrighteous deception among those who perish

Now upon John's entry into Jerusalem, the whole body of the people were in an uproar, and ten thousand of them crowded about every one of the fugitives that were come to them, and inquired of them what miseries had happened abroad, when their breath was so short, and hot, and quick, that of itself it declared the great distress they were in; yet did they talk big under their misfortunes, and pretended to say that they had not fled away from the Romans, but came thither in order to fight them with less hazard...

for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie

But for John, he was very little concerned for those whom he had left behind him, but went about among all the people, and persuaded them to go to war, by the hopes he gave them. He affirmed that the affairs of the Romans were in a weak condition, and extolled his own power. He also jested upon the ignorance of the unskillful, as if those Romans, although they should take to themselves wings, could never fly over the wall of Jerusalem, who found such great difficulties in taking the villages of Galilee, and had broken their engines of war against their walls.

These harangues of John's corrupted a great part of the young men, and puffed them up for the war;

Now it was John who, as we told you, ran away from Gischala, and was the occasion of all these being destroyed. He was a man of great craft, and bore about him in his soul a strong passion after tyranny

But as for John, when he could no longer plunder the people, he betook himself to sacrilege, and melted down many of the sacred utensils, which had been given to the temple;

Now this vast multitude is indeed collected out of remote places, but the entire nation was now shut up by fate as in prison, and the Roman army encompassed the city when it was crowded with inhabitants.

Accordingly, the multitude of those that therein perished exceeded all the destructions that either men or God ever brought upon the world; for, to speak only of what was publicly known, the Romans slew some of them, some they carried captives, and others they made a search for under ground, and when they found where they were, they broke up the ground and slew all they met with. There were also found slain there above two thousand persons, partly by their own hands, and partly by one another, but chiefly destroyed by the famine; but then the ill savor of the dead bodies was most offensive to those that lighted upon them, insomuch that some were obliged to get away immediately, while others were so greedy of gain, that they would go in among the dead bodies that lay on heaps, and tread upon them; for a great deal of treasure was found in these caverns, and the hope of gain made every way of getting it to be esteemed lawful. Many also of those that had been put in prison by the tyrants were now brought out; for they did not leave off their barbarous cruelty at the very last: yet did God avenge himself upon them both, in a manner agreeable to justice.

As for John, he wanted food, together with his brethren, in these caverns, and begged that the Romans would now give him their right hand for his security, which he had often proudly rejected before; but for Simon, he struggled hard with the distress he was in, fill he was forced to surrender himself, as we shall relate hereafter; so he was reserved for the triumph, and to be then slain; as was John condemned to perpetual imprisonment. And now the Romans set fire to the extreme parts of the city, and burnt them down, and entirely demolished its walls.

The "lawless one" was none other than John of Gischala who, through use of flattery and deceit, encouraged the inhabitants of Jerusalem to embark in a war with Rome that led to the complete destruction of the city.

The one that was "taken out of the way" for John's rise to tyranny was Ananus, the high priest who ordered the death of James the Just in 68 AD. Ananus opposed John of Gischala who - in turn - had him killed by the Edomites that were mercenaries for John.

Thank God Josephus left us such a complete history by which we can discern the truth.

 

[JLB]

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 (NKJV)

the lawless one

Now no place of Galilee remained to be taken but the small city of Gischala, whose multitude yet were desirous of peace; for they were generally husbandmen, and always applied themselves to cultivate the fruits of the earth. However, there were a great number that belonged to a band of robbers, that were already corrupted, and had crept in among them, and some of the governing part of the citizens were sick of the same distemper. It was John, the son of a certain man whose name was Levi, that drew them into this rebellion, and encouraged them in it. He was a cunning knave, and of a temper that could put on various shapes; very rash in expecting great things, and very sagacious in bringing about what he hoped for. It was known to every body that he was fond of war, in order to thrust himself into authority...

with all unrighteous deception among those who perish

Now upon John's entry into Jerusalem, the whole body of the people were in an uproar, and ten thousand of them crowded about every one of the fugitives that were come to them, and inquired of them what miseries had happened abroad, when their breath was so short, and hot, and quick, that of itself it declared the great distress they were in; yet did they talk big under their misfortunes, and pretended to say that they had not fled away from the Romans, but came thither in order to fight them with less hazard...

for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie

But for John, he was very little concerned for those whom he had left behind him, but went about among all the people, and persuaded them to go to war, by the hopes he gave them. He affirmed that the affairs of the Romans were in a weak condition, and extolled his own power. He also jested upon the ignorance of the unskillful, as if those Romans, although they should take to themselves wings, could never fly over the wall of Jerusalem, who found such great difficulties in taking the villages of Galilee, and had broken their engines of war against their walls.

These harangues of John's corrupted a great part of the young men, and puffed them up for the war;

Now it was John who, as we told you, ran away from Gischala, and was the occasion of all these being destroyed. He was a man of great craft, and bore about him in his soul a strong passion after tyranny

But as for John, when he could no longer plunder the people, he betook himself to sacrilege, and melted down many of the sacred utensils, which had been given to the temple;

Now this vast multitude is indeed collected out of remote places, but the entire nation was now shut up by fate as in prison, and the Roman army encompassed the city when it was crowded with inhabitants.

Accordingly, the multitude of those that therein perished exceeded all the destructions that either men or God ever brought upon the world; for, to speak only of what was publicly known, the Romans slew some of them, some they carried captives, and others they made a search for under ground, and when they found where they were, they broke up the ground and slew all they met with. There were also found slain there above two thousand persons, partly by their own hands, and partly by one another, but chiefly destroyed by the famine; but then the ill savor of the dead bodies was most offensive to those that lighted upon them, insomuch that some were obliged to get away immediately, while others were so greedy of gain, that they would go in among the dead bodies that lay on heaps, and tread upon them; for a great deal of treasure was found in these caverns, and the hope of gain made every way of getting it to be esteemed lawful. Many also of those that had been put in prison by the tyrants were now brought out; for they did not leave off their barbarous cruelty at the very last: yet did God avenge himself upon them both, in a manner agreeable to justice.

As for John, he wanted food, together with his brethren, in these caverns, and begged that the Romans would now give him their right hand for his security, which he had often proudly rejected before; but for Simon, he struggled hard with the distress he was in, fill he was forced to surrender himself, as we shall relate hereafter; so he was reserved for the triumph, and to be then slain; as was John condemned to perpetual imprisonment. And now the Romans set fire to the extreme parts of the city, and burnt them down, and entirely demolished its walls.

The "lawless one" was none other than John of Gischala who, through use of flattery and deceit, encouraged the inhabitants of Jerusalem to embark in a war with Rome that led to the complete destruction of the city.

The one that was "taken out of the way" for John's rise to tyranny was Ananus, the high priest who ordered the death of James the Just in 68 AD. Ananus opposed John of Gischala who - in turn - had him killed by the Edomites that were mercenaries for John.

Thank God Josephus left us such a complete history by which we can discern the truth.

Thank God, The Lord left us the scriptures so that we can know the season of His return by the signs He left for us.

The fact that the Lawless one will be alive on earth when Jesus returns is clear from the scriptures.

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


The generation that sees the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, as spoken by the prophet Daniel, will see The Lord Jesus coming in the clouds with power and great glory.

as it is written -


Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

This generation is clearly associated with the signs that Jesus listed!

The abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, being the one hard linked directly with the tribulation and the "false christ" or "lawless one"!

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ...
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.

Matthew records nothing in Jesus discussion with His disciples where He say's anything about the events of 70 AD, the reason being, the abomination of desolation occurs just before the time of Jesus return at the end of the age!

JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Thank God, The Lord left us the scriptures so that we can know the season of His return by the signs He left for us.

...

Matthew records nothing in Jesus discussion with His disciples where He say's anything about the events of 70 AD, the reason being, the abomination of desolation occurs just before the time of Jesus return at the end of the age!

JLB

What good are the scriptures to one who ignores them? Matthew 24 begins with Jesus describing the events of 70AD. Those "things" were destroyed in 70AD. Christ was not pointing to far-future fairytail things that even now still don't exist. He was pointing to the "things" which His People still believed were important, yet were already marked for destruction. The only question was 'when?', to which He provides a map.

Mat 24:1 ¶ And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 - And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.​

But don't feel too bad; at that time His disciples didn't understand either.

 

[JLB]

What good are the scriptures to one who ignores them? Matthew 24 begins with Jesus describing the events of 70AD. Those "things" were destroyed in 70AD. Christ was not pointing to far-future fairytail things that even now still don't exist. He was pointing to the "things" which His People still believed were important, yet were already marked for destruction. The only question was 'when?', to which He provides a map.

Mat 24:1 ¶ And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 - And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.​

But don't feel too bad; at that time His disciples didn't understand either.

Thank God, Jesus gave us Daniel as the "key" to understand what He was teaching us.

Otherwise we would be blown around with every wind of false doctrine and heresy, such as preterism, that comes along!


The disciples were at the temple with Jesus commenting on the buildings of the temple.

1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.

Hear what Jesus' response was about their great admiration for the temple.

2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

This exchange about the temple and buildings took place in the temple grounds.


Now in verse 3 the setting shifts to a private conversation between Jesus and His disciples up on Mount Olivet.

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

From this point forward Jesus begins His famous "Olivet Discourse" starting in verse 4.

From Matthew 24:4 - 25:46 Jesus gives the literal signs that precede His literal return. His return is mentioned throughout His discourse, as well as some parables that teach of His return.

What He doesn't mention is the events of 70 AD, nor does any His discourse incorporate any language that associates His teaching with any of those events.

The specific language that Daniel uses to describe the events of 70 AD are found in Daniel 9:26, - And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

The destruction of the city and sanctuary is never Mentioned in Matthews record.

It is however, mentioned in Luke 21.

But, I guess that's why Preterism is labeled as heresy by this Forum, because it's built upon a presumptuous interpretation of scripture!


JLB

 

[reba]

The distance from the temple to the mount was few hundred yards... and then which part of the mount?

 

[JLB]

The distance from the temple to the mount was few hundred yards... and then which part of the mount?

Where in these verse's do you find your information?


1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." 3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"


JLB

 

[reba]

JLB some things are on a map... I like maps they are cool reading .... you dont have know so much spelling...