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wondering

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I’m shocked you would say this.

I have extensively covered the scriptures in the Old Testament that are Jesus, The Lord God Almighty.


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.
Genesis 17:1


This was our Lord who appeared to Abraham.

The same Lord who became flesh.



JLB
The Word appeared to Abraham.
JESUS was born 2,000 years ago.

If you want to go back and call the person that appeared to Abraham JESUS, that's fine with me.

But then we have to concede to the catholic church that the first Pope was Peter.

Same idea.
 

wondering

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I can't speak for wondering but I think if you read that again she meant the name Jesus, being the English name, was only given to Mary by the angel of the Lord 2000 years or so ago according to Matthew 1:21.
Of course this is what I mean,,,
and I'm surprised at JLB since he's known my beliefs for years now.

I must say that I've had to teach the Trinity to young kids,,,,10-12....and it always gets one into trouble because it's not readily understood even if one reads books about it or has it explained to them many times.

I've read a lot about it and gone to special meeting about it and I still cannot really explain it....

Immanuel GOD WITH US happened when JESUS was born.
The Word made flesh.
God incarnate.

I dislike going farther than this:


8790
 

for_his_glory

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Of course this is what I mean,,,
and I'm surprised at JLB since he's known my beliefs for years now.

I must say that I've had to teach the Trinity to young kids,,,,10-12....and it always gets one into trouble because it's not readily understood even if one reads books about it or has it explained to them many times.

I've read a lot about it and gone to special meeting about it and I still cannot really explain it....

Immanuel GOD WITH US happened when JESUS was born.
The Word made flesh.
God incarnate.

I dislike going farther than this:


View attachment 8790
It's just one of those complex things that go beyond our comprehension and reasoning it all out with what is given in scripture. Every name given is a title of the attributes of God as we learn who the Father, Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit are in our lives.
 

JLB

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I can't speak for wondering but I think if you read that again she meant the name Jesus, being the English name, was only given to Mary by the angel of the Lord 2000 years or so ago according to Matthew 1:21.
You think English is the language Mary spoke?
 

JLB

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But then we have to concede to the catholic church that the first Pope was Peter.

If you want to go back and call the person that appeared to Abraham JESUS, that's fine with me.

Why would we have to concede to the Catholic Church that the first Pope was Peter, if The Lord appeared to Abraham?

The one has nothing to do with the other.


The flesh and blood man Jesus Christ, didn’t appear to Abraham, but the Lord Himself.


Jesus Christ is the Lord; YHWH THE Lord God.


Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Hebrews 13:8




JLB
 

ezrider

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Can you explain what that means?
I find it rather self explanatory. What do you think it means?

It's just one of those complex things that go beyond our comprehension
Common sense and simple wisdom should tell us to hold our tongues concerning that which goes beyond our comprehension. Yet the tongue is hard thing to bridle!

and reasoning it all out with what is given in scripture.
Reasoning it all out with what is given in the scripture is what leads to the doctrines of men.
 

wondering

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It's just one of those complex things that go beyond our comprehension and reasoning it all out with what is given in scripture. Every name given is a title of the attributes of God as we learn who the Father, Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit are in our lives.
Sure.
I learned in one theology class that whatever example we use with kids turns out to be wrong.
The water,steam, ice is wrong because each is its own reality and does not make one...this is modulism.
The triangle kind of works pretty well.

I used my own method.
Brought in a nice round big bread.
Then I cut it into three parts, but it was still one whole.

Then I made it into slices, spread some Nutella on it, and we had it as a snake with juice!

I think they might remember that better.

(no letters please. I'm sure this was wrong too!)
 

wondering

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Why would we have to concede to the Catholic Church that the first Pope was Peter, if The Lord appeared to Abraham?

The one has nothing to do with the other.


The flesh and blood man Jesus Christ, didn’t appear to Abraham, but the Lord Himself.


Jesus Christ is the Lord; YHWH THE Lord God.


Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Hebrews 13:8




JLB
Oh, it has a lot to do with it.

First, I don't understand why the name of Jesus is problematic.
Jesus MEANS God saves or YHWH saves.

His name in Hebrew is Yeshua, and there's another spelling for it I can't remember right now,,,I think you used it in a post Yeheshua or something similar.

Also, most bibles will differentiate by using
Lord for Jesus
and
LORD for God Father throughout the bible.

It's important to understand that Jesus ALWAYS existed as the Word of God or the Son of God or the 2nd person of the Trinity.

But He did not always exist as JESUS.
Jesus was born in about 6 or 7 BC.

When He appeared to Abraham He was the Word of God...we can call that person Jesus as a way of recognizing who we're talking about.

And this is also true of the catholic church.
Peter was NOT the first Pope...
He was the first BISHOP of Rome.
There were 5 important bishops back then.
Rome
Antioch
Alexandria
Constantinople
Jerusalem

As a sign of respect and affection these particular bishops were called PAPA.....similar to "dad" in english. (not daddy). But each area had their own Bishop.

When the CC decided to have one leader in the heirarchy, they decided it should be the one in Rome because Rome was the most important city for Christianity by the time the title came into being (about the 600's..I'd have to look it up).

They then WENT BACK, retroactively, and put the title of POPE on every BISHOP OF ROME since the time of Jesus..which, as we know, was Peter who was given the keys and who was VERY prominent in developing Christianity. He was looked to for advice when problems came up.

(I take nothing away from Paul who mapped out Christian theology).
 

PeterJens

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Sure.
I learned in one theology class that whatever example we use with kids turns out to be wrong.
The water,steam, ice is wrong because each is its own reality and does not make one...this is modulism.
The triangle kind of works pretty well.

I used my own method.
Brought in a nice round big bread.
Then I cut it into three parts, but it was still one whole.

Then I made it into slices, spread some Nutella on it, and we had it as a snake with juice!

I think they might remember that better.

(no letters please. I'm sure this was wrong too!)
I have used the water analogy before, and I admit it is probably wrong in some respects.

I have another analogy.
Gods heart, His nature, His personality, His intentions, His outlooks, His choices, His essence, is expressed equally in Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Father in heaven, on the throne,
Son, human, who came to earth, now in heaven with the Father
Holy Spirit, God who indwells us equally and is present everywhere.

They are perfectly God, yet equally three different identities and expressions
of this essence with different knowledge and emphasis.

All three are not the same, nor have the same knowledge etc.
Because they are eternal, they are God, but do they have to be identical
to be God in a true sense, or is our use of the word God the problem.

God the creator is His essence, who He is, yet He is expressed 3 different
ways, and as three separate identities. As far as we know, nothing else is
like this, so ofcourse we have problems expressing that which is beyond our
comprehension or description.

9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority
Col 2

The trinity in action

22 the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
Luke 3

The Holy Spirit speaks to every child of God, at the same time, present in
their hearts, which appears that He alone can do this.

Though separate Jesus said this
30 I and the Father are one."
John 10

9 Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father
John 14

10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
John 14
 

JLB

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Oh, it has a lot to do with it.

First, I don't understand why the name of Jesus is problematic.
Jesus MEANS God saves or YHWH saves.

His name in Hebrew is Yeshua, and there's another spelling for it I can't remember right now,,,I think you used it in a post Yeheshua or something similar.

Also, most bibles will differentiate by using
Lord for Jesus
and
LORD for God Father throughout the bible.

It's important to understand that Jesus ALWAYS existed as the Word of God or the Son of God or the 2nd person of the Trinity.

But He did not always exist as JESUS.
Jesus was born in about 6 or 7 BC.

When He appeared to Abraham He was the Word of God...we can call that person Jesus as a way of recognizing who we're talking about.

And this is also true of the catholic church.
Peter was NOT the first Pope...
He was the first BISHOP of Rome.
There were 5 important bishops back then.
Rome
Antioch
Alexandria
Constantinople
Jerusalem

As a sign of respect and affection these particular bishops were called PAPA.....similar to "dad" in english. (not daddy). But each area had their own Bishop.

When the CC decided to have one leader in the heirarchy, they decided it should be the one in Rome because Rome was the most important city for Christianity by the time the title came into being (about the 600's..I'd have to look it up).

They then WENT BACK, retroactively, and put the title of POPE on every BISHOP OF ROME since the time of Jesus..which, as we know, was Peter who was given the keys and who was VERY prominent in developing Christianity. He was looked to for advice when problems came up.

(I take nothing away from Paul who mapped out Christian theology).
I agree with much of what you have said, however when you said, Jesus did not exist until 2000 years ago, I would that you would have clarified it, because some may get the wrong idea.

The Lord Jesus has always been the Lord God, YHWH, of the Old Testament, Who spoke through the mouth of the prophets and appeared to many.


Example -


I am the Lord, your Holy One,
The Creator of Israel, your King.
Isaiah 43:15


The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1


These are references to the Lord, not God the Father.





JLB
 

OzSpen

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I disagree with the 3 persons!
God is the Father,
God is the Son,
God is the Holy Spirit, One Person....carrying 3 offices, roles....
You do believe that God was/is Jesus?
So how could that be another person?
Diane,

I urge you to defend that position from Scripture.

Making a statement as you have done here is nothing more than giving your personal opinion.

Oz
 
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JLB

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His name in Hebrew is Yeshua, and there's another spelling for it I can't remember right now,,,I think you used it in a post Yeheshua or something similar.
Hebrew for Joshua, which mean the same exact thing as Jesus. YHWH is salvation.


For some reason I’m not able to edit my posts, the system won’t let me.


I have to delete the entire post and repost it.


Is anyone else having the same trouble?




JLB
 

JLB

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I disagree with the 3 persons!
God is the Father,
God is the Son,
God is the Holy Spirit, One Person....carrying 3 offices, roles....
You do believe that God was/is Jesus?
So how could that be another person?

Diane, please consider that there are three distinct divine beings that make up the One Godhead.

The scripture is clear on this.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

  • These three are one. Very Specific.

It does not say, this one is three.


Elohim is plural for God.


There are three that comprise the one Godhead.




JLB
 

JLB

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The Word appeared to Abraham.
JESUS was born 2,000 years ago.

YHWH appeared to Abraham.


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1



JLB
 

JLB

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JESUS was born 2,000 years ago.

Jesus was the firstborn over all creation, being the only begotten of the Father, and He created all things.


He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17



JLB
 

JLB

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But then we have to concede to the catholic church that the first Pope was Peter.

Same idea.
I don’t see your reasoning here.



JLB
 

ezrider

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Just a question here.

In all of this postulating on the nature of some triune God, as far as the Son of God goes: how do you factor the creation of a New Spirit into your model?
 

wondering

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YHWH appeared to Abraham.


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1



JLB
I'm sorry J....doesn't it say somewhere in the bible that God has never been seen by man?
John 1:18
Exodus 33:7...........

Also, I understand that Lord is Jesus and LORD is God Father.
I also understand that mistakes were made in translation in the O.T.

In Genesis 17:1---your verse, it is written as LORD which it plainly says is God Almighty..God Father.

This would conflict with John 1:18 and Exodus 33:7---------

I have no explanation.
 

wondering

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Jesus was the firstborn over all creation, being the only begotten of the Father, and He created all things.


He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17



JLB
The Word created everything that God Father wanted created.
NOT Jesus.

This is from the Nicene Creed which was accepted by the early church TWICE...and is from 325 AD and confirmed on about 425 AD.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,

eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial

of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.



We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ
THE ONLY SON OF GOD,
BEGOTTEN NOT MADE....

The SON OF GOD was begotten
NOT Jesus.
 

wondering

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I don’t see your reasoning here.



JLB
I tried twice J....can't explain it better than that.
It has to do with retroactivity.....
Jesus was born in the year 6 o7 BC.

If we want to call THE SON OF GOD, or THE 2ND PERSON OF THE TRINITY Jesus,,,that would be retroactive.

The first Pope was named in about 600 AD.
IF we want to call Peter the first pope,,,that has to be retroactive.
 
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