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OzSpen

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No, that is not what I said. The words Trinity/Deity/Divinity is not found in the Bible, but means three in one as divine being (God), celestial being (God) , supreme being (God) that is all the same spirit that is God as all three, Father, Son and Holy Ghost function in unity as one spirit (not three individual persons) within the Spiritual realm of God. The scriptures I gave in post #11 explain this, but in all reality I don't think anyone can truly understand the fullness of it all.
FHG,

That reads like the beliefs of a person who is a Modalistic Monarchian, a Sabellian.

That was declared a heresy in the early church. Tertullian was one who exposed this error.

Tertullian wrote of Modalism:

We, however, as we indeed always have done (and more especially since we have been better instructed by the Paraclete, who leads men indeed into all truth), believe that there is one only God, but under the following dispensation, or οἰκονομία , as it is called, that this one only God has also a Son, His Word, who proceeded from Himself, by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made. Him we believe to have been sent by the Father into the Virgin, and to have been born of her—being both Man and God, the Son of Man and the Son of God, and to have been called by the name of Jesus Christ; we believe Him to have suffered, died, and been buried, according to the Scriptures, and, after He had been raised again by the Father and taken back to heaven, to be sitting at the right hand of the Father, and that He will come to judge the quick and the dead; who sent also from heaven from the Father, according to His own promise, the Holy Ghost, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost. That this rule of faith has come down to us from the beginning of the gospel, even before any of the older heretics, much more before Praxeas, a pretender of yesterday, will be apparent both from the lateness of date which marks all heresies, and also from the absolutely novel character of our new-fangled Praxeas. In this principle also we must henceforth find a presumption of equal force against all heresies whatsoever—that whatever is first is true, whereas that is spurious which is later in date (Against Praexis, ch 2).​

Praexis, a Modalist, was a false teacher regarding the Godhead.

Today those who promote a similar error are 'Jesus only' teachers, e.g. United Pentecostal Church. See: https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_338.cfm

Do you support Oneness theology that is opposed to the orthodox understanding of the Trinity?

Oz
 

OzSpen

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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Jesus is the life of God who is the word of God come in the flesh to be that light (life) unto men. Men could not understand the light that walked among them until the light was taken up and another light/life of God (Holy Spirit) came down to indwell men giving them understanding of the light/life of God.
FHG,

Are you referring to the modes of operation of Father, Son and Holy Spirit? You seem to be stating this when you declare:
  1. 'Jesus is the life of God'; this is Jesus' mode of life.
  2. 'Jesus is the life of God ... light (life) unto men'; that's a 'mode' of action for Jesus.
  3. 'Another light/life of God (Holy Spirit) came down to indwell men giving them understanding of the light/life of God'. Again the mode of life/light of God is the mode of action of the Holy Spirit 'to indwell men' and give 'understanding of the light/life of God'.
This reads like your way of dismissing the Trinity of one God and three Persons in the one Godhead.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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I've never heard this.
The Word was GOD.

Then how do YOU explain the word?
wondering,

You are clearly correct according to John 1:1, '... the Word was God' and not 'the Word was in the Son'.

Rom 1:4 (NIV) states: 'and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord'.

The Son is of God and not in God.

There is some confusing material being promoted in this thread regarding the Trinity and aberrations of the Trinity, in my view.

Oz
 

wondering

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wondering,

You are clearly correct according to John 1:1, '... the Word was God' and not 'the Word was in the Son'.

Rom 1:4 (NIV) states: 'and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord'.

The Son is of God and not in God.

There is some confusing material being promoted in this thread regarding the Trinity and aberrations of the Trinity, in my view.

Oz
Yes. The trinity is not easy to understand, However this is no reason to quote it incorrectly.

The following would be helpful to anyone interesed.
There is more than one article.

 

JLB

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Yes. The trinity is not easy to understand, However this is no reason to quote it incorrectly.

The following would be helpful to anyone interesed.
There is more than one article.

From the article you linked.

The United Pentecostal Church and ‘Jesus Only’ Pentecostals (Oneness Pentecostals) are modalists, which is a heresy from the early church. For a refutation of Oneness Pentecostalism, see Jason Barker of Watchman Fellowship’s Profile article, ‘Oneness Pentecostalism’. See also ‘Modalism, Tritheism, or the Pure Revelation of the Triune God‘. These articles expose the dangerous heresy of modalism whose early form was Sabellianism and whose modern manifestation is Oneness Pentecostalism or Jesus Only Pentecostalism.



JLB
 

JLB

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Yes. The trinity is not easy to understand, However this is no reason to quote it incorrectly.

The following would be helpful to anyone interesed.
There is more than one article.

One the other hand, it’s biblical to baptize in the name of Jesus.

No where do we find any of the Apostles baptizing people in the “name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit”.


The Name that represents the Godhead is Jesus.


For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; Colossians 2:9




JLB
 

dianegcook

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Very true, but the flesh I not the soul, the soul s not the spirit, and the spirit is not the flesh but it makes one person.
In the same manner the Father is not the Son, the Son s not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father, but they make One God.
The Spirit is the intellect of your soul.
As I stated, 3 different roles.
Jesus was God in the flesh.
Which contained His Spirit.

Jesus could read your mind. Matt.9:4
Jesus was / is the right hand that saves, flesh that contained blood,which , without the shedding of blood is no remission, Heb.9:22
Psa.17:7
Oh Thou that savest by Thy Right hand,
Psa.18:35
Thou hast also given me the shield of Thy salvation,
Thy Right hand hath Holden me up,
Psa.48:10
Thy Right hand is full of righteousness
Col.3:1
where Christ sitteth on the Right hand of God.

The Spirit is God's Spirit .
Jesus commended His Spirit, Luke23:46

John 14:9
He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father

John 14:16,17
He shall give you another Comforter, that He may ABIDE with you 4ever.
Even the Spirit of Truth, for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

ROLES....
 

dianegcook

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Very interesting.
The question is then:
Do the three speak to each other?

YES! They do.

The spirit speaks to the soul.
The soul speaks to the body.

Does the body speak to the spirit or soul?
Don't know...maybe when it's in pain?
As in John 11:42
He had to say it, when He knew..so,
That those which stood by , may believe
 

wondering

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Yes. The trinity is not easy to understand, However this is no reason to quote it incorrectly.

The following would be helpful to anyone interesed.
There is more than one article.

One the other hand, it’s biblical to baptize in the name of Jesus.

No where do we find any of the Apostles baptizing people in the “name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit”.


The Name that represents the Godhead is Jesus.


For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; Colossians 2:9




JLB
What do you mean it's biblical to baptize in the name of Jesus?

Do you mean that during baptism the pastor/priest says:
"I baptize you in the name of Jesus".

??

Will pick up on Colossiand 2:9 when I understand better what you mean.
 

for_his_glory

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FHG,

Are you referring to the modes of operation of Father, Son and Holy Spirit? You seem to be stating this when you declare:
  1. 'Jesus is the life of God'; this is Jesus' mode of life.
  2. 'Jesus is the life of God ... light (life) unto men'; that's a 'mode' of action for Jesus.
  3. 'Another light/life of God (Holy Spirit) came down to indwell men giving them understanding of the light/life of God'. Again the mode of life/light of God is the mode of action of the Holy Spirit 'to indwell men' and give 'understanding of the light/life of God'.
This reads like your way of dismissing the Trinity of one God and three Persons in the one Godhead.

Oz
In responce to your other two post I never heard of Modalistic Monarchian, a Sabellian, but did read that which you posted about it.

No, I am not dismissing the Trinity of one God and three persons in the one Godhead as all three are within the Godhead being coequal or in other words all being the spiritual nature of God in all His attributes.

As per me using John 1:1-4 Jesus is the word of God before the foundation of the world come as a light unto man in the flesh who now sits at the right hand of God as He is our mediator before the Father. That which we have not seen with our own eyes is confirmed by the indwelling Holy Spirit, also being coequal, who opens our Spiritual eyes and ears to receive that of what God has already taught by giving Jesus what to speak and teach others, John 12:49, 50. All three exist as one mind in unity with each other.
 

OzSpen

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[/QUOTE]
Jesus is the life of God who is the word of God come in the flesh to be that light (life) unto men. Men could not understand the light that walked among them until the light was taken up and another light/life of God (Holy Spirit) came down to indwell men giving them understanding of the light/life of God.
[/QUOTE]

FHG,

So that I better understand your view and your full support of the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, would you be able to provide Scripture to support these statements?

Are you saying that God the Father did not have the life of God in Him?

Thanks,
Oz
 

OzSpen

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Yes. The trinity is not easy to understand, However this is no reason to quote it incorrectly.

The following would be helpful to anyone interested.
There is more than one article.

wondering,

I'm working on an article for my homepage, Truth Challenge, on 'How to understand three persons in the Trinity'.

That should be completed today and possibly uploaded tomorrow. I'll let you know when it's available for viewing and, hopefully, considering with biblical discernment (cf. Acts 17:11 NLT).

Oz
 

OzSpen

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All three exist as one mind in unity with each other.
FHG,

The 3 persons of the Godhead are not just one mind in unity. Yes, each person has an intellect/mind that acts but generally the intellect has different attributes of the mind for each person. The article I'm working on about the persons in the Godhead will demonstrate that each person has intellect, feelings, will and other personal attributes.

Here's a sample from the article (not yet online):

God the Holy Spirit is a person
Like the Father and the Son, the Holy Spirit had attributes of personhood. ‘He’ was not an impersonal ‘it’.

John 14:26 demonstrates the Holy Spirit ‘reminds’ and teaches: ‘But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you’.

Ephesians 4:30 expresses the feelings of the Holy Spirit: ‘And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption’. Also, ‘and so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven’ (Matt 12:31). The Spirit can be insulted: ‘So think how much more punishment people deserve who show their hate for the Son of God—people who show they have no respect for the blood sacrifice that began the new agreement and once made them holy or who insult the Spirit of God’s grace’ (Heb 11:29 ERV).

This is another dimension of the Holy Spirit’s feelings: ‘Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace and was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it increased in numbers’ (Acts 9:31).

1 Corinthians 12:11 demonstrates that the Holy Spirit has a will to dispense the gifts: ‘It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have’ (NLT).

John 16:13 refers to the ‘Spirit of truth’ with the Greek masculine, ekeinos, i.e. ‘He’ and not ‘it’, although pneuma (Spirit) is neuter gender: ‘But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come’ (NIV)

The Person of the Holy Spirit has the attributes of being a ‘he’ who guides, speaks and hears.

There is more NT evidence that the Spirit ‘searches, knows, speaks, testifies, reveals, convinces, commands, strives, moves, helps, guides, creates, recreates, sanctifies, inspires, intercedes, orders the affairs of the church, and performs miracles (see Gen 6:3; Luke 12:12; John 3:8; 16:7-8; Acts 8:29; Rom 8:26; 1 Cor 2:11; Eph 4:30; 2 Peter 1:21, etc’.[1]


[1] Geisler (2003:288). This list of personal actions by the Holy Spirit in Geisler mainly comes from Augustus Strong’s Systematic Theology (1907:324).
Oz
 

JLB

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Do you mean that during baptism the pastor/priest says:
"I baptize you in the name of Jesus".
Yes.

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38



For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 8:16


Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 10:47-48



When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:5-6



JLB
 

wondering

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Yes.

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38


For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 8:16


Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 10:47-48


When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:5-6


JLB
What I've learned is that there are at least two baptisms.
One is for the removal of sins.
One is for empowerment.

One is with water.
One is with the laying on of hands (or not).

For water baptism there was the baptism of John and the baptism of Jesus. It means WHOSE baptism one is receiving...it's a TYPE of baptism. John no longer was alive so all baptisms were said to be the baptism of Jesus.

THIS was not a formula.
Jesus gave the FORMULA in Mathew 28:19 or 20.
He told the Apostles to go into all the world and teach and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
This is the formula to be used when being baptized.

For Empowerment some churches have a second "baptism" which they call the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues (although this doesn't always happen). This is done in the name of Jesus only.

I read that link you sent me, I don't really agree with it.
These are the 3 churches of which I understand their theology:
Catholic
Nazarene
Assembly of God

The first two do not have the baptism for the empowernmen of the Holy Spirit.
They all 3 have baptism as Jesus described, for the forgiveness of sin, to be accepted into the Christian community, and at that time the Holy Spirit is also received.
 

for_his_glory

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FHG,

The 3 persons of the Godhead are not just one mind in unity. Yes, each person has an intellect/mind that acts but generally the intellect has different attributes of the mind for each person. The article I'm working on about the persons in the Godhead will demonstrate that each person has intellect, feelings, will and other personal attributes.

Here's a sample from the article (not yet online):

God the Holy Spirit is a person
Like the Father and the Son, the Holy Spirit had attributes of personhood. ‘He’ was not an impersonal ‘it’.

John 14:26 demonstrates the Holy Spirit ‘reminds’ and teaches: ‘But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you’.

Ephesians 4:30 expresses the feelings of the Holy Spirit: ‘And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption’. Also, ‘and so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven’ (Matt 12:31). The Spirit can be insulted: ‘So think how much more punishment people deserve who show their hate for the Son of God—people who show they have no respect for the blood sacrifice that began the new agreement and once made them holy or who insult the Spirit of God’s grace’ (Heb 11:29 ERV).

This is another dimension of the Holy Spirit’s feelings: ‘Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace and was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it increased in numbers’ (Acts 9:31).

1 Corinthians 12:11 demonstrates that the Holy Spirit has a will to dispense the gifts: ‘It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have’ (NLT).

John 16:13 refers to the ‘Spirit of truth’ with the Greek masculine, ekeinos, i.e. ‘He’ and not ‘it’, although pneuma (Spirit) is neuter gender: ‘But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come’ (NIV)

The Person of the Holy Spirit has the attributes of being a ‘he’ who guides, speaks and hears.

There is more NT evidence that the Spirit ‘searches, knows, speaks, testifies, reveals, convinces, commands, strives, moves, helps, guides, creates, recreates, sanctifies, inspires, intercedes, orders the affairs of the church, and performs miracles (see Gen 6:3; Luke 12:12; John 3:8; 16:7-8; Acts 8:29; Rom 8:26; 1 Cor 2:11; Eph 4:30; 2 Peter 1:21, etc’.[1]
[1] Geisler (2003:288). This list of personal actions by the Holy Spirit in Geisler mainly comes from Augustus Strong’s Systematic Theology (1907:324).
Oz
I believe the 3 persons of the Godhead do work within one mind being the attributes of God's intellect given in various ways for the purpose of His plan of salvation through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Jesus and the Holy Spirit can do nothing or say nothing apart from what God directs them to do and say as they testify of Him.

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the intellectual virtues of God's attributes given to man as Jesus taught us about God and His salvation through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus who now sits at the right hand of God being our mediator before God. The works of the Holy Spirit are that of the seven spirits of God being, the spirit of the Lord, wisdom, understanding, counsel, might, knowledge and fear (respect) of the Lord, Isaiah 11:2, 3.

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the personification of the Godhead within the incarnation being the embodiment of God.
 

OzSpen

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What I've learned is that there are at least two baptisms.
One is for the removal of sins.
One is for empowerment.

One is with water.
One is with the laying on of hands (or not).

For water baptism there was the baptism of John and the baptism of Jesus. It means WHOSE baptism one is receiving...it's a TYPE of baptism. John no longer was alive so all baptisms were said to be the baptism of Jesus.

THIS was not a formula.
Jesus gave the FORMULA in Mathew 28:19 or 20.
He told the Apostles to go into all the world and teach and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
This is the formula to be used when being baptized.

For Empowerment some churches have a second "baptism" which they call the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues (although this doesn't always happen). This is done in the name of Jesus only.

I read that link you sent me, I don't really agree with it.
These are the 3 churches of which I understand their theology:
Catholic
Nazarene
Assembly of God

The first two do not have the baptism for the empowernmen of the Holy Spirit.
They all 3 have baptism as Jesus described, for the forgiveness of sin, to be accepted into the Christian community, and at that time the Holy Spirit is also received.
wondering,

For an expose of Jesus Only doctrines see:
Because God cannot lie (Heb 6:18), it is impossible for God to promote a contradiction. Jesus' only errors involve the exaltation of 'Jesus only' above the baptismal formula given by Jesus, 'baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit' (Matt 28:19). It promotes a contradiction rather than seeking to explain the difference between Jesus' formula and the other example of baptism in the name of Jesus in the Book of Acts.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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I believe the 3 persons of the Godhead do work within one mind being the attributes of God's intellect given in various ways for the purpose of His plan of salvation through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Jesus and the Holy Spirit can do nothing or say nothing apart from what God directs them to do and say as they testify of Him....

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the personification of the Godhead within the incarnation being the embodiment of God.
FHG,

That is a strange understanding of the work of the Trinity. I'll be posting a link to a more systemised view of the work of the persons in the Trinity. That should be today.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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What I've learned is that there are at least two baptisms.
One is for the removal of sins.
One is for empowerment.

One is with water.
One is with the laying on of hands (or not).

For water baptism there was the baptism of John and the baptism of Jesus. It means WHOSE baptism one is receiving...it's a TYPE of baptism. John no longer was alive so all baptisms were said to be the baptism of Jesus.

THIS was not a formula.
Jesus gave the FORMULA in Mathew 28:19 or 20.
He told the Apostles to go into all the world and teach and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
This is the formula to be used when being baptized.

For Empowerment some churches have a second "baptism" which they call the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues (although this doesn't always happen). This is done in the name of Jesus only.

I read that link you sent me, I don't really agree with it.
These are the 3 churches of which I understand their theology:
Catholic
Nazarene
Assembly of God

The first two do not have the baptism for the empowernmen of the Holy Spirit.
They all 3 have baptism as Jesus described, for the forgiveness of sin, to be accepted into the Christian community, and at that time the Holy Spirit is also received.
wondering,

I've uploaded the new article to my homepage: How to understand three persons in the Trinity.

For those interested in a systematic understanding of these three persons, I invite you to consider what I've written. I'd appreciate your constructive feedback, including correction of typographical errors.

Oz
 

JLB

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Jesus' only errors involve the exaltation of 'Jesus only' above the baptismal formula given by Jesus, 'baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit' (Matt 28:19).

Here is what the scriptures show us, how the Apostles baptized.



Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38



For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 8:16


Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 10:47-48



When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:5-6



Can you provide any scripture examples where anyone in the Bible ever baptized “in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit”.


Jesus is the name the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, have chosen to represent the Godhead.


For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; Colossians 2:9


Jesus is the name above every name.



JLB
 

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