The Elect Hear The Voice Of The Shepherd.

[Chopper]

Joh 10:1"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber.

Joh 10:2But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

Joh 10:3To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

Joh 10:4When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

Joh 10:5A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."

Joh 10:6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Joh 10:7 So Jesus again said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

Joh 10:8All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.

Joh 10:9I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.

Joh 10:10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.

Joh 10:11I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Joh 10:12He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.

Joh 10:13He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

Joh 10:14I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,

Joh 10:15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Joh 10:16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Joh 10:17For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.

Joh 10:18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father."

I have had a love for the theology of the "Reformers" for years. Perhaps because their theology came about because of intense persecution from the Church at Rome. The man who stands out in my mind is John Calvin. Today, Calvin's TULIP is not received by a large population of theologians and Bible students, perhaps because the opponents to Calvinism are more vocal than the proponents.

Now, a small number of Forum members know that I have added to Calvin's original TULIP, the GCOG, or the General Call Of the Gospel. For reasons that we don't know, Calvin did not include Scripture like John 3:16, For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son. That WHOEVER believed.....
Perhaps there was something in Catholic dogma that made him stay away from those text's.

At any rate, I see in this great portrayal of Jesus the true Shepherd, and the Elect, the sheep, and the knowledge that each had for one another, it's beautiful!

Now, in John 10:3 "To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out." (Lets swap the word sheep for Elect for this study) It reads, the Elect hear His (Jesus) voice, and He calls His own Elect by name. Lets look at Ephesians 1:3-5

Ephesians 1:3 " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."

It is my opinion that God (Elohiym) knew each of the elect that He would bring into this world at a specific time, location, and purpose, just like Jerimiah in the Book Jerimiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations." I added that Scripture to validate that Jesus knew the Elect that He would call into His service by name as it says in John 10:3.

Ok, because this thread is so involved, I'll stop here and pick it up again in a new section.

 

[Chopper]

Ok, I'm back for round two....Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me. What a wonderful statement of Truth that Jesus, our Shepherd makes to His Elect sheep. We sometimes, in church, "God is good, God is good all the time." Wow! He sure is! Just think of it, before God (Elohiym) created the earth that we live on, Jesus knew you and me. Just like Jeremiah, he knew you by name, He chose who you would be and chose when, where, and how you would serve Him as His bond servant.

Do you really know how special you are? You should walk today with your head held high, not out of pride, but in the knowledge that you are a child of the King. You are on a special mission to discern who has not trusted in our Savior Jesus Christ, and give them the life changing good news of Salvation.

Joh 10:16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. Here is the doctrine of the General Call Of the Gospel. There is then, IMO, two classes of sheep. Since we don't know who is who, we can't lift ourselves up over the other. We all must adhere to the command that we must be watchful for Christ Jesus' return, we all must overcome sin, and we all must be faithful to our Redeemer Jesus until the end.

T total depravity (no one is capable of saving oneself.)
U unconditional election (God's choosing of the saved isn't conditioned by anything in them.)
L limited atonement (Christ's atonement is adequate to save all people but it is efficient for God's elect only.) This is the one that I reject except that I add those who are truly saved thru the GCOG or General Call Of the Gospel. You see, a great number of folk who come to Jesus thru the General Call, such as a Billy Graham Crusade, will not endure until the end. Therefore the atonement has no effect on that crowd.
I irresistible grace (the sovereignly given gift of faith cannot be rejected by the Elect.) Ok, now we go to the two classes of sheep. The sheep who are the Elect and the sheep of the General Call. The Elect of God cannot refuse the call to Salvation and will respond and be saved at some point in their life. They are not saved until they are born and live for an undetermined amount of time. Perhaps the date of their Salvation has been pre-set by God, I'm not sure. The Holy Spirit pleads with the sheep in the class of the General Call, and the difference between them and the Elect is that they can and do refuse to be saved. Praise God for those who do make the best choice.
P perseverance of the saints. (those who are regenerated and justified will persevere in the faith.) This applies to the Elect sheep and the General Call sheep who are biblically saved that Jesus has committed Himself too as in John 2:24.

Well folks, I stand ready to defend what I believe is the truth to this very controversial teaching of John Calvin. As I have already noted, I don't adhere to all that Calvin documents. There are other parts of Calvin's theology that I don't follow. I like to think that these early reformers were faced with a completely different set of circumstances that we are. Fighting against the false doctrines of the Church at Rome was a fierce fight indeed and could account for some teachings that we don't agree with.

I hope some of you will see and appreciate a fresh look at these thoughts of mine and study afresh for yourself. Thanks for your time.

 

[mutzrein]

Ok, I'm back for round two....Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me. What a wonderful statement of Truth that Jesus, our Shepherd makes to His Elect sheep. We sometimes, in church, "God is good, God is good all the time." Wow! He sure is! Just think of it, before God (Elohiym) created the earth that we live on, Jesus knew you and me. Just like Jeremiah, he knew you by name, He chose who you would be and chose when, where, and how you would serve Him as His bond servant.

Do you really know how special you are? You should walk today with your head held high, not out of pride, but in the knowledge that you are a child of the King. You are on a special mission to discern who has not trusted in our Savior Jesus Christ, and give them the life changing good news of Salvation.

Joh 10:16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. Here is the doctrine of the General Call Of the Gospel. There is then, IMO, two classes of sheep. Since we don't know who is who, we can't lift ourselves up over the other. We all must adhere to the command that we must be watchful for Christ Jesus' return, we all must overcome sin, and we all must be faithful to our Redeemer Jesus until the end.

T total depravity (no one is capable of saving oneself.)
U unconditional election (God's choosing of the saved isn't conditioned by anything in them.)
L limited atonement (Christ's atonement is adequate to save all people but it is efficient for God's elect only.) This is the one that I reject except that I add those who are truly saved thru the GCOG or General Call Of the Gospel. You see, a great number of folk who come to Jesus thru the General Call, such as a Billy Graham Crusade, will not endure until the end. Therefore the atonement has no effect on that crowd.
I irresistible grace (the sovereignly given gift of faith cannot be rejected by the Elect.) Ok, now we go to the two classes of sheep. The sheep who are the Elect and the sheep of the General Call. The Elect of God cannot refuse the call to Salvation and will respond and be saved at some point in their life. They are not saved until they are born and live for an undetermined amount of time. Perhaps the date of their Salvation has been pre-set by God, I'm not sure. The Holy Spirit pleads with the sheep in the class of the General Call, and the difference between them and the Elect is that they can and do refuse to be saved. Praise God for those who do make the best choice.
P perseverance of the saints. (those who are regenerated and justified will persevere in the faith.) This applies to the Elect sheep and the General Call sheep who are biblically saved that Jesus has committed Himself too as in John 2:24.

Well folks, I stand ready to defend what I believe is the truth to this very controversial teaching of John Calvin. As I have already noted, I don't adhere to all that Calvin documents. There are other parts of Calvin's theology that I don't follow. I like to think that these early reformers were faced with a completely different set of circumstances that we are. Fighting against the false doctrines of the Church at Rome was a fierce fight indeed and could account for some teachings that we don't agree with.

I hope some of you will see and appreciate a fresh look at these thoughts of mine and study afresh for yourself. Thanks for your time.

Hey Chopper. Interesting thoughts. Where does scripture speak of 2 classes of sheep?

 

[JLB]

Joh 10:16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. Here is the doctrine of the General Call Of the Gospel. There is then, IMO, two classes of sheep. Since we don't know who is who, we can't lift ourselves up over the other. We all must adhere to the command that we must be watchful for Christ Jesus' return, we all must overcome sin, and we all must be faithful to our Redeemer Jesus until the end.

This verse is sufficient to show that the context "My sheep" and the things that pertain to "My sheep" is a reference to His disciples.

The two classes of sheep are His disciples that literally followed Him when He was on earth, and everyone else.

You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. John 15:16


The context here, refers to His Apostles... as He says that you should go. Go or being sent is a reference to Apostles.


Now if Jesus says this to another person, like say Saul of Tarsus, then what He says to that person is for that person.


My sheep here my Voice, is a general statement that refers to all His sheep, ie: both groups


We should not take a direct phrase spoken to another individual's call or election and apply it to ourselves...
whether it is Go into all the world and preach the Gospel... which was spoken directly to His disciples and was the Apostolic commissioning, as He said "Go"...

To many decide to Go, but were never sent.

To Abraham He said -

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:1-3


Nor should we apply to our lives a "choosing" by God, that was meant specifically for someone else.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6


God chose those who were in Christ, and predestined them...

The question is, how does a person come to be "in Christ"?

How did Abraham come to be in Christ?

He heard His Voice, and obeyed.

My sheep hear My Voice...



JLB

 

[mutzrein]

This verse is sufficient to show that the context "My sheep" and the things that pertain to "My sheep" is a reference to His disciples.

The two classes of sheep are His disciples that literally followed Him when He was on earth, and everyone else.

You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. John 15:16


The context here, refers to His Apostles... as He says that you should go. Go or being sent is a reference to Apostles.


Now if Jesus says this to another person, like say Saul of Tarsus, then what He says to that person is for that person.


My sheep here my Voice, is a general statement that refers to all His sheep, ie: both groups


We should not take a direct phrase spoken to another individual's call or election and apply it to ourselves...
whether it is Go into all the world and preach the Gospel... which was spoken directly to His disciples and was the Apostolic commissioning, as He said "Go"...

To many decide to Go, but were never sent.

To Abraham He said -

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:1-3


Nor should we apply to our lives a "choosing" by God, that was meant specifically for someone else.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6


God chose those who were in Christ, and predestined them...

The question is, how does a person come to be "in Christ"?

How did Abraham come to be in Christ?

He heard His Voice, and obeyed.

My sheep hear My Voice...

JLB

Hmmm - Ok - I still don't see more than one 'class' of sheep. Two classes of animals perhaps ... sheep and goats. But as far as sheep are concerned they all are Christ's. Jesus came to his own people - the Jews. The other sheep who were to be brought into the fold are Gentiles. And so when it says that God so loved the world, it refers not only to the Jews, but to Gentile alike - ie the world.

 

[iLOVE]

The phrase, "And other Sheep I have, which are not of this Fold, " speaks of the Gentile Church.

The phrase, "Them also I must bring, and they shall hear My Voice," proclaims that the Gentile Church will be built, which it was, because it responded to His Voice.

When the Lord used the words "other Sheep," He was thinking of you and I.

 

[smaller]

Sounds like you're a 4 pointer Chopper.

Calvin brought back an interesting scriptural observation in "election." The sight was there to be had. This presented problems to the orthodox "freewill" position and ultimately it was this difference, between "freewill-ism" and "determination-ism" that split the Protestant camps as well.

Christian theology has always been in an uproar it seems, from the start. Christians came to understand that Grace through faith in Christ was a scriptural reality, and this presented issues to O.T. legalism. And in the formation of Christianity we see this unfold. The early battle was law vs. grace. A later battle, freewill vs. determination. Pretty much all competing postures revolve around these basic issues.

Calvin had some valid sights. But his T.U.L.I.P. is not a tool that explains everything, that much is certain. It's one thing to acknowledge Divine Sovereignty. It is quite another to claim that any man's dissection is that Divine Sovereignty.

And truthfully, Calvin himself really wouldn't know if he himself was saved under his own postures. Nor do most forms of freewill postures really know. Both camps are somewhat alike in not knowing the certainty of salvation. In both camps some random freewill adverse action at the end of life could theoretically tumble a believer into hell. And in determination, a believer who persevered to the end, and then failed to persevere at the last moment could also theoretically fail OR could even have been proven by Divine Sovereignty to simply have been a tare, as Determined by The Sovereign, post death.

I was led to examine both camps frailties by Romans 11:25-32, where Paul shows that all of Israel shall be saved, even those who were enemies of the Gospel. These enemies of the Gospel, of Israel were/are loved by God for the sake of other people, their predecessors, their fathers. And they, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Nothing these enemies of Israel did or would do would fail them from being saved on account of others.

Neither freewill or determination camps handle that aspect for the salvation of "all of Israel inclusive of enemies of the Gospel" very well from what I've seen. Most place that "all of Israel" saved into some future point in determinism, which doesn't work/fit or compute because Paul is referring to enemies who "are" enemies present tense, not future tense.

And freewill can't even seem to see it to deal with, as if they are totally blinded to this fact, which is termed by Paul, to be a MYSTERY.

Mysteries are in the more interesting categories of christian theology, and that particular one is very interesting.

So, Calvin's tulip fails on this count to dissect that particular Mystery, imho. And can't address it. And freewill seems out of the question to even be able to touch it. All the great intellects of orthodoxy utterly fail to address it and landed on an almost opposite conclusion. Somewhat amazing to me, that FAIL.

When engaging understandings of various mysteries, things seem to move into esoteric territory under which are veritable mountains of scriptural dissections. But if there is any weakness in TULIP, that is one big one.

 

[Brother Mike]

Ok, I'm back for round two....Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me. What a wonderful statement of Truth that Jesus, our Shepherd makes to His Elect sheep. We sometimes, in church, "God is good, God is good all the time." Wow! He sure is! Just think of it, before God (Elohiym) created the earth that we live on, Jesus knew you and me. Just like Jeremiah, he knew you by name, He chose who you would be and chose when, where, and how you would serve Him as His bond servant.

(Edited, ToS 2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice. Obadiah)

One thing you need to understand is that John Calvin did not use scriptures like John 3:16 is not because John Calvin ignored them. His diligence in the Word and love of God would tell you that John Calvin just did not ignore scriptures.

The Fact is John Calvin did not have all the scriptures. He was born in 1509, died in 1564. the tyndal and coverdale were about His choices very late in His life, if He could get a complete copy, plus his own studies of Greek.

Everything He pieced together concerning election had to come from Memory. There was no bible programs, and there was no Strongs concordance. If your focused on what you think is true, then you tend to only see those things that support what you believe to be true.
Otherwise, your scattered all over the place, and John was trying to understand a Sovereign God and some scriptures without comparing others made complete sense to him. There is a very good chance He did not even have all the scriptures together at once, and if He did, then it would have to be from Memory where (edited) they were.

Even with our fast bible programs and Greek and Hebrew at our fingertips, we are still every learning and gaining better understanding of things we thought we knew.

John Calvin did some amazing things, some ideas of his about election were right. God calls us before we are made in the Womb, but God also "FORMS" the spirit in the man. That says that at the time the spirit is formed, the plan God has for the man is already decided.

There is nothing though created, not made to be in Christ Jesus, not a rock, not a place, nothing, all were destined to be in Him.

because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created, and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
(Col 1:16-17 YLT)

So to say some were elected not to be saved, is to say some things were not meant to serve and be in the Lord Jesus.
(Edited, ToS 2.4. Obadiah)

Mike.

 

[smaller]

Even with our fast bible programs and Greek and Hebrew at our fingertips, we are still every learning and gaining better understanding of things we thought we knew.

Probably one of the best statements seen in awhile here, above.

Not only has the electronic world sped up our understanding, reviewing the findings of others is also sped up. Years ago one might have had to sat in a pew for years before they figured out what the leadership was basing their positions on before a common congregant would know it. It could take years. Now most major positions are available to sample in a few clicks and pages of reading. It's an amazing opportunity to review an abundance of views and various matters.

Just having an online Strong's for example increased my own studies exponentially. I used to have to open the Bible, open the Strong's and then begin to pick through each page, each citing. Painfully slow process. Now, it's just zip zip zip through massive data collections. I can take a simple seach term such as "in the midst' or 'behold' and have every citing, in 1/2 a second.

It really is a wonder. And to have this has only served to strengthen my faith across the board.

Also a wonderful sight of the service of ALL THINGS unto our God Mike. I have known that for quite some time. I generally cite this as 'all things serve The Maker of all things.' My own "brief" of what Rev. 4:11 shows us.

Some believers may not see for example, that IF God created evil, how could that ever please God? Or, "that makes God evil." Uh, no. God can and does 'create' evil and will take Great Delights in showing and proving HIS SUPERIORITY over it, by use of same. God making something, some power, does NOT make God that thing or power that He created, because only HE is Superior over ALL of it and all things.

1 Cor. 15:
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

For the record I appreciate and prefer the determinist side of the ledgers. What that consists of however will NOT be based on Calvin's sights of it. These various sights only introduce us to elemental concepts, but as to Calvin's validity, is is provably shallow on many counts.

 

[Brother Mike]

Probably one of the best statements seen in awhile here, above.

Not only has the electronic world sped up our understanding, reviewing the findings of others is also sped up. Years ago one might have had to sat in a pew for years before they figured out what the leadership was basing their positions on before a common congregant would know it. It could take years. Now most major positions are available to sample in a few clicks and pages of reading. It's an amazing opportunity to review an abundance of views and various matters.

Just having an online Strong's for example increased my own studies exponentially. I used to have to open the Bible, open the Strong's and then begin to pick through each page, each citing. Painfully slow process. Now, it's just zip zip zip through massive data collections. I can take a simple seach term such as "in the midst' or 'behold' and have every citing, in 1/2 a second.

It really is a wonder. And to have this has only served to strengthen my faith across the board.

Also a wonderful sight of the service of ALL THINGS unto our God Mike. I have known that for quite some time. I generally cite this as 'all things serve The Maker of all things.' My own "brief" of what Rev. 4:11 shows us.

Some believers may not see for example, that IF God created evil, how could that ever please God? Or, "that makes God evil." Uh, no. God can and does 'create' evil and will take Great Delights in showing and proving HIS SUPERIORITY over it, by use of same. God making something, some power, does NOT make God that thing or power that He created, because only HE is Superior over ALL of it and all things.

1 Cor. 15:
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

For the record I appreciate and prefer the determinist side of the ledgers. What that consists of however will NOT be based on Calvin's sights of it. These various sights only introduce us to elemental concepts, but as to Calvin's validity, is is provably shallow on many counts.

Thank you Smaller. All things mean all things. Nothing elected to not be in Jesus, even a stupid, evil devil . Everyting consist in the Lord Jesus. There is no Human that does not have a plan, purpose, and great life in the Lord if they will just choose him. The whole of creation is for His purpose. (YES, Even the Evil) For the evil shall slay the wicked. I guess sort of a wicked population control valve.

Psa_34:21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.
Sounds like a perfectly crafted system to me.

(Edited, off topic subject that has been proven to stir controversy. Obadiah)

I hate to admit it Smaller, I must not know much. For what even I think I know, I don't really, really know.

I would not like to See John Calvin put down this way though bring up His Election doctrine. It's a disgrace to a man that sacrificed a whole lot for the Word of God. He was not perfect, but neither am I. The man had far less than we have today, and no lights to turn on to study by night. A lantern would have to do. What He did do, with what He had and the opposition He faced was a great accomplishment.

Had he not brought up election, had it not been a doctrine, Would we have dug as deep as we have to see if it be true or not? Because of John Calvin, would we understand as we do now, having no need to find out what He believed?

To be honest, I would not have spent the years in study, and I mean years of Election and the opposite, Foreknowledge. Both are wrong, but not 100% wrong. Would I have even known, or bothered without John Calvin, and remained ignorant of how God deals with man?

Revelation God gave us from the past is meant to be built upon and grow, not remain stagnant and ignorant. God is so big, nobody got it all down perfect in their life time but Jesus.

Blessings.

Mike.

 

[ezra]

(Post removed. Response to the deleted section of another post. Obadiah)

 

[smaller]

(Edited, off topic. Obadiah)

I hate to admit it Smaller, I must not know much. For what even I think I know, I don't really, really know.

We all know only in part. 1 Cor. 13:9. This is actually one of my sticking points for older orthodoxy as they claim they have "all truth." Uh, no, they don't. It's not possible seeing only in part. It's also a good reason to see Calvin or anyone else for that matter as only a "part" see er.

And I'm cool with not knowing a lot of things. Makes life interesting and some stuff I really don't want to know.

I would not like to See John Calvin put down this way though bring up His Election doctrine. It's a disgrace to a man that sacrificed a whole lot for the Word of God. He was not perfect, but neither am I. The man had far less than we have today, and no lights to turn on to study by night. A lantern would have to do. What He did do, with what He had and the opposition He faced was a great accomplishment.

I think many everyday normal believers have moments of "vivification" where the scriptures come alive for them in revealing things. I think this is "how" the Holy Spirit guides believers into truthful matters of the Word. Much faster sometimes than any super computer...

And I think this is how the early Apostles operated as well, to move us into different perspectives from THEIR perspectives by their analysis. We seem to have our hands full, just with that.

Had he not brought up election, had it not been a doctrine, Would we have dug as deep as we have to see if it be true or not? Because of John Calvin, would we understand as we do now, having no need to find out what He believed?

I spent the first few years of my believing life not really knowing anything about election/determination from the reformed determinist side because they were non-existing in my local church environment. Everyone was "freewill." When I moved to a bigger city, there was better exposure and I was eventually led to study their side of the coin, because of OSAS, which is largely a determinist derivative (from the scriptures, of course!) So, I have no bones to pick with Calvin opening up this frontier a crack or 2. We have to remember who claimed to "own and game" the system prior to the reformation/protestantism. That was a deep hole for believers to crawl out of. It was a slow crawl out.

To be honest, I would not have spent the years in study, and I mean years of Election and the opposite, Foreknowledge. Both are wrong, but not 100% wrong. Would I have even known, or bothered without John Calvin, and remained ignorant of how God deals with man?

Sometimes these various perspectives are 'good' to test our own sights with. I find no general harm in examining any perspectives of anyone. In 30+ years I think I've heard or examined just about any slant on the Trinity for example, and I remain with Trinitarian understandings, as they are entirely sound and for me, the very best of any explanations. And sincere people of faith wrestled this particular subject to the ground adequately long long ago.

Revelation God gave us from the past is meant to be built upon and grow, not remain stagnant and ignorant. God is so big, nobody got it all down perfect in their life time but Jesus.

Blessings.

Mike.

Again, true. After spending several decades in Word studies I can still sit down and crank out sometimes hours of study, daily. Mostly in areas of personal interests in forward predictive prophesy from the O.T. through Rev. That is the most fascinating for me. Still haven't slotted into any "past" understandings of this either i.e. all the trib/mil postures.

Calvin's stuff warrants study. That's all there is to it for interested students. Just like early church fathers warrant studies.

 

[turnorburn]

Joh 10:1"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber.

Joh 10:2But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

Joh 10:3To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

Joh 10:4When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

Joh 10:5A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."

Joh 10:6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Joh 10:7 So Jesus again said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

Joh 10:8All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.

Joh 10:9I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.

Joh 10:10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.

Joh 10:11I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Joh 10:12He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.

Joh 10:13He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

Joh 10:14I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,

Joh 10:15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Joh 10:16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Joh 10:17For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.

Joh 10:18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father."

I have had a love for the theology of the "Reformers" for years. Perhaps because their theology came about because of intense persecution from the Church at Rome. The man who stands out in my mind is John Calvin. Today, Calvin's TULIP is not received by a large population of theologians and Bible students, perhaps because the opponents to Calvinism are more vocal than the proponents.

Now, a small number of Forum members know that I have added to Calvin's original TULIP, the GCOG, or the General Call Of the Gospel. For reasons that we don't know, Calvin did not include Scripture like John 3:16, For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son. That WHOEVER believed.....
Perhaps there was something in Catholic dogma that made him stay away from those text's.

At any rate, I see in this great portrayal of Jesus the true Shepherd, and the Elect, the sheep, and the knowledge that each had for one another, it's beautiful!

Now, in John 10:3 "To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out." (Lets swap the word sheep for Elect for this study) It reads, the Elect hear His (Jesus) voice, and He calls His own Elect by name. Lets look at Ephesians 1:3-5

Ephesians 1:3 " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."

It is my opinion that God (Elohiym) knew each of the elect that He would bring into this world at a specific time, location, and purpose, just like Jerimiah in the Book Jerimiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations." I added that Scripture to validate that Jesus knew the Elect that He would call into His service by name as it says in John 10:3.

Ok, because this thread is so involved, I'll stop here and pick it up again in a new section.

That's true Chopper, the elect do hear his voice..

 

[Brother Mike]

(Post removed, ToS 2.2, publicly disputing moderators actions. Obadiah)

 

[turnorburn]

Jesus when referring to the last days said...

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

There are deceivers in this world and some pretty slick ones at that....

 

[Chopper]

Hey Chopper. Interesting thoughts. Where does scripture speak of 2 classes of sheep?

John10:16

 

[Chopper]

I want to thank you all for your posts. Before I dared to present my biblical findings along with Calvin's theology, I already knew that it would not be received very well. Scripture has been my thirst for many years, and in order to understand my OP, I had to put aside all the preconceptions about this issue, and put aside all the negative writings from other men so that I could see and understand what I believe is Truth.

I want to thank Obadiah for keeping the thread on an even keel, and I'm sorry that some don't like some of his actions. Obadiah is professional Moderator who goes by the rules.

I was hoping that my thread might have caused some folk to re-think their past evaluation of TULIP in light of the Scriptures and what I consider, spiritual logic. My intent was not to create a fire storm, just to present some food for thought.

Thank you all again, I love you all even if you don't agree with my findings in an area of theology that I personally find challenging and fruitful to my understanding of how Elohiym structured the process of Salvation.

 

[reba]

Well done Chopper

 

[Obadiah]

I want to thank you all for your posts. Before I dared to present my biblical findings along with Calvin's theology, I already knew that it would not be received very well. Scripture has been my thirst for many years, and in order to understand my OP, I had to put aside all the preconceptions about this issue, and put aside all the negative writings from other men so that I could see and understand what I believe is Truth.

I want to thank Obadiah for keeping the thread on an even keel, and I'm sorry that some don't like some of his actions. Obadiah is professional Moderator who goes by the rules.

I was hoping that my thread might have caused some folk to re-think their past evaluation of TULIP in light of the Scriptures and what I consider, spiritual logic. My intent was not to create a fire storm, just to present some food for thought.

Thank you all again, I love you all even if you don't agree with my findings in an area of theology that I personally find challenging and fruitful to my understanding of how Elohiym structured the process of Salvation.

Thank you Chopper. I believe the problem has been eliminated now and this thread should be able to go on in the calm and peaceful way that it started.

 

[JLB]

Hmmm - Ok - I still don't see more than one 'class' of sheep. Two classes of animals perhaps ... sheep and goats. But as far as sheep are concerned they all are Christ's. Jesus came to his own people - the Jews. The other sheep who were to be brought into the fold are Gentiles. And so when it says that God so loved the world, it refers not only to the Jews, but to Gentile alike - ie the world.

You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. John 15:16


Do you believe this pertains to all His Sheep or His Apostles?

And so when it says that God so loved the world, it refers not only to the Jews, but to Gentile alike - ie the world.

JLB