The Existence of the Godhead

[DarcyLu]

i am starting this thread due to another thread getting off topic into the discussion of a tritarian vs non tritarian viewpoints.
the Godhead consist of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the glory equal, the majesty co-equal, evident from the following versus:


"Our" Gen 1:26
"Us" Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8
"We" Isa 6:8
"Then God [plural elohim] said, "Let Us [plural pronoun] make man in Our [plural pronoun] image, according to Our [plural pronoun] likeness" Genesis 1:26
"Then Yahweh God [plural elohim] said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us [plural pronoun], knowing good and evil" Genesis 3:22
"Come, let Us [plural pronoun] go down and there confuse [plural form of balal] their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech." Genesis 11:7
"Then I heard the voice of the Lord [plural elohim], saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us [plural pronoun]?"" Isaiah 6:8
I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (John 17:4,5)

Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19)

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. (Genesis 1:26)

Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. (Genesis 3:22)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:1-3,14)

In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. (1 John 4:9)

 

[costcounter]

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:8-10

In Christ Jesus dwell all the fulness of the divine nature that is come in the flesh (bodily); this is what is written concerning the Godhead, and we must learn to not think above that which is written.

 

[JudaicChristian]

The word "Godhead" is not in actual scripture. The name title Elohiym is not His personal name, and a plural name title does not make a plural being. "Let us" is AIT. The majestic plural (pluralis maiestatis in Latin) is the use of a plural pronoun to refer to a single person holding a high office, such as a monarch, bishop, pope, or university rector. It is also called the Royal pronoun, the Royal 'we' or the Victorian 'we'. The more general word for the use of "we" to refer to oneself is nosism, from the Latin nos. In Hebrew the word "we" sometimes means "I."

 

[DarcyLu]

The word "Godhead" is not in actual scripture.

either is the word Bible.

 

[D4Christ]

Places in bible where Godhead is used.

Godhead: Strong’s#2320 – deity, state of being God

comments in brackets are mine.

Acts 17

22 So Paul, standing before the council, addressed them as follows: “Men of Athens, I notice that you are very religious in every way, 23 for as I was walking along I saw your many shrines [a building or other shelter, often of a stately or sumptuous character, enclosing the remains or relics of a saint or other holy person and forming an object of religious veneration and pilgrimage.] And one of your altars had this inscription on it: ‘To an Unknown God.’ This God, whom you worship without knowing, is the one I’m telling you about.
24 “He is the God who made the world and everything in it. Since he is Lord of heaven and earth, he doesn’t live in man-made temples, 25 and human hands can’t serve his needs—for he has no needs. He himself gives life and breath to everything, and he satisfies every need. 26 From one man he created all the nations throughout the whole earth. He decided beforehand when they should rise and fall, and he determined their boundaries.
27 “His purpose was for the nations to seek after God and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him—though he is not far from any one of us. 28 For in him we live and move and exist. As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ 29 And since this is true, we shouldn’t think of God [KJV says Godhead] as an idol designed by craftsmen from gold or silver or stone.

Clearly, this is an instance in which Paul, after walking around notices a lot of religious idols and carvings. He tells the people that the “state of being God†cannot be captured in a man-made carving and that the real God demands true repentance (vs.30)

Romans 1

18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature [KJV says Godhead]. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

Here Paul clearly states that man is without excuse for acknowledging God. From just looking at the things God made, Paul said his [God’s] invisible qualities…power and deity (state of being God) should be obvious to us.

Colossians 2

8 Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ. 9 For in Christ lives all the fullness [S#4138, has been filled, completeness, abundance] of God [KJV says Godhead] in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

This scripture states that Christ is filled with the deity and state of being God in a human body. It goes on to tell confirm 1 Corinthians 15: 25-28 by stating that Christ is head over all rulers and authority….not because he is the Father but because the His Father transferred this authority to Him, which He (Christ) must give back after completing the Father’s work.

The question is where does the definition of Godhead (quote Darcy Lu: Godhead consist of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the glory equal, the majesty co-equal) come from and who started the concept. I know three saints were involved but only remember one, St. Basil….you might want to investigate.

There is also a disconnect within your definition… “majesty co-equal�??? If the Father and His Son were co-equal and co-majestic, then why does the Son constantly claim not be equal to his Father. Why does the Son call the Father his God?

John 8
16 And if I did, my judgment would be correct in every respect because I am not alone. The Father who sent me is with me. 17 Your own law says that if two people agree about something, their witness is accepted as fact 18 I am one witness, and my Father who sent me is the other.â€

John 6
27 But don’t be so concerned about perishable things like food. Spend your energy seeking the eternal life that the Son of Man can give you. For God the Father has given me the seal of his approval.â€

John 8
28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man on the cross, then you will understand that I Am he. I do nothing on my own but say only what the Father taught me. 29 And the one who sent me is with me—he has not deserted me. For I always do what pleases him.â€

John 20
17 Don’t cling to me,†Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’â€

Rev 3
10 “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world. 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take away your crown. 12 All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my God, and they will never have to leave it. And I will write on them the name of my God, and they will be citizens in the city of my God—the new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven from my God. And [Watch this!] I will also write on them my new name.

(What…Christ gets a new name? Didn’t see that one coming….)

So the question remains if the Father and the Son and co-equal, why does the Son never refer to himself as equal to his Father? Why does the Son only do what he is told if he is an equal?

 

[DarcyLu]

(What…Christ gets a new name? Didn’t see that one coming….)

So the question remains if the Father and the Son and co-equal, why does the Son never refer to himself as equal to his Father? Why does the Son only do what he is told if he is an equal?

hi D4Christ, thanks for your post.....the following scripture should answer your questions.....

1 Jn 5:8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.

Daniel 7:13-14: “There before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven . . . He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed

Matthew 2:11: “On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.â€

Matthew 14:32-33: “And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’â€

John 8:58-59: "‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.â€

John 10:30-33: “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.


John 20:27-29: “Then He said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’ Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’"

 

[Anth]

Hi Darcy,

Ok - remember we have two ground rules.

1. One Text/Concept. I believe the one concept you chose was Jehovah's use of a plural pronoun that is recorded in about 4 - 5 places in the OT and no instances in the NT as far as I know. You are using these instances as a key evidence that our Creator is more than one person. Is this correct?

I will be focusing solely on this issue until we come to a conclusion and no other.

2. Open to Repentance - I have learned long ago not to spin my wheels with those who simply want to express their Discipleship 101 class forever and not come to a knowledge of the truth which years of hard work and experience (and, an open mind to learn) come.

Do we have agreement on the ground rules including the topic for this particular thread?

Best,
Anth

 

[DarcyLu]

Hi Darcy,

Ok - remember we have two ground rules.

1. One Text/Concept. I believe the one concept you chose was Jehovah's use of a plural pronoun that is recorded in about 4 - 5 places in the OT and no instances in the NT as far as I know. You are using these instances as a key evidence that our Creator is more than one person. Is this correct?

I will be focusing solely on this issue until we come to a conclusion and no other.

how about we start with the NT?

2. Open to Repentance - I have learned long ago not to spin my wheels with those who simply want to express their Discipleship 101 class forever and not come to a knowledge of the truth which years of hard work and experience (and, an open mind to learn) come.

Do we have agreement on the ground rules including the topic for this particular thread?

Best,
Anth

i am open to learn, as long as you are. i am coming with a conviction the Father, Son and Holy Ghost - the three of them, One God. i would like to understand what led you to believe otherwise, we can always bring in outside resources to prove our cases and view people's opinions and doctrines of men, but i stand on the Word of God.
sound ok?

 

[Anth]

Darcy,

Sounds good.

If you want to start with a different specific text or concept - something from the NT - go ahead and put it down. We will leave the plural OT instances until another time if you wish.

Sounds good - I am always open to adjustment (I would never have gotten to where I am if I had not been since the main church I went to taught quite differently than I ended up - but a good challenge for sure!).

Best,
Anth

 

[DarcyLu]

ok, what about starting with this scripture?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:1-3,14)

The Word is Jesus, He was God from the beginning, He was with God from the beginning. All things were created in Him and through Him and then the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Now He is again with God and is God, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Good luck to you, Anth. j/k

 

[Anth]

All right, my dear - pick one or the other (the One Text/Concept Rule)

Please describe how you believe it supports the Trinity (maybe we should have a working definition of the Trinity as a basis to which you are working towards).

Yup, schools in session - ring the bell....

 

[DarcyLu]

All right, my dear - pick one or the other (the One Text/Concept Rule)

Please describe how you believe it supports the Trinity (maybe we should have a working definition of the Trinity as a basis to which you are working towards).

you will be the one who has to try and prove the Trinity doesn't exist, Anth, i've already shown it does.
ok, this one:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:1-3,14)

The Word is Jesus, He was God from the beginning, He was with God from the beginning. All things were created in Him and through Him and then the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Now He is again with God and is God, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Yup, schools in session - ring the bell....

:biglaugh you have got to be kidding me. :biglaugh

 

[Anth]

OK - Jn 1:1 - that will be your first stab at proving the Trinity

First, do you have your Greek text in hand.... (OK, don't answer that...).

First we have to dispense with the personal pronoun "He/His" in v2,3,4. The use of a English personal pronoun is simply a translators' interpretation of the text rather than the actual text itself. There is no basis for personalizing O LOGOS (the Word) at this point in the text. We are simply informed that O LOGOS exists as well as provided some explanatory material. In English, the pronoun would be the neuter "IT" so v2 s/b "It was towards [the] God", etc.. The word translated "with" is actually "pros" and means "towards" as in "pointing towards".

OK - we need to come to agreement on these basic points before we move forward

BTW - a good place to come to a genuine understanding of O LOGOS is kind of obvious - Gen1. If you read through Gen 1 - you will see exactly what John is referring to.

BTW2 - Jn1:14 is one of my favorite vss.

Best,
Anth

PS Did I hear a pin drop in the class room.... ?

 

[JudaicChristian]

It is called trolling on this board to dispute Trinitarianism. Are you baiting for prey.

 

[Anth]

MDO

For what it is worth, we are discussing Jn1:1ff period. No other texts or concepts. That is the rule for this thread.

The second rule is that we come before God's word with an open and humble mind - as well as one another - submitting ourselves to one another as Jesus has called us to do.


Best,
Anth

 

[JudaicChristian]

MDO

For what it is worth, we are discussing Jn1:1ff period. No other texts or concepts. That is the rule for this thread.

The second rule is that we come before God's word with an open and humble mind - as well as one another - submitting ourselves to one another as Jesus has called us to do.


Best,
Anth

Fine then! Just keep this in mind when doing a study, there are translations, and there are interpretations. In other words, do not believe everything you read.

 

[DarcyLu]

MDO

For what it is worth, we are discussing Jn1:1ff period. No other texts or concepts. That is the rule for this thread.


Best,
Anth

Rick told someone that a person can't set sub rules for apologetics - forgot about that until right now, so that rule could be out.

 

[Anth]

...it is my own personal rule - I won't deviate from it.

 

[Anth]

Just keep this in mind when doing a study, there are translations, and there are interpretations. In other words, do not believe everything you read.

Your kidding....aren't you....???

:rolling (I luv this simley)

 

[DarcyLu]

...it is my own personal rule - I won't deviate from it.

ok, well i asked Rick to move this to 1 on 1 debate because i don't think that will fly with the admins. and you can't keep people out of an apologetics thread.