[_ Old Earth _] The Gap Theory of Christian Creationism

[Barbarian]

Um, I'm an orthodox Trinitarian Christian.

I'm just opposed to bibolatry.

May you have a great Christmas as well.

 

[Sower]

As Augustine and others pointed out, it is wrong to interpret "yom" in Genesis as 24 hour days, because literal 24 hour days are absurd in the context of Genesis. And Augustine tried very hard to find a way to reconcile that idea with Genesis.

Before we go further, does the use of "the Barbarian" imply that you do not actually believe that he Bible is God's Word? That makes all the difference in this discussion.

First, if your are going to quote Augustine, please supply his exact words so that we can see if that is indeed what he is saying, as it that simply your understanding. And even if he says what you claim that he does, Augustine is not necessarily our authority.

Second, why is it "ABSURD" to conclude in the context of Genesis chapter 1, that each day of creation is indeed a literal 24-hour day. Since the Jewsih day began at 6:00 p.m. and ended just before 6:00 p.m., why should we not believe that "evening and morning, the first--second..third etc. days are six literal days? In fact, the repeated use of this solemn statement by the Holy Spirit in Gen .1:5,8,13,19,23,31 is conclusive PROOF that God created in six-literal days. Nothing could be clearer, since we are not left to guess, but are very specifically told the duration and the order of each day.

Thirdly, why should we not then go to Exodus and Deuteronomy to confirm that man's work week of six literal 24-hour days was patterned after God's six-day work-week of Creation, and the Sabbath was also pattered after God's sabbath?

"For in SIX DAYS the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day..." (Ex.20:11; Deut. 5:13,14).

As regards creation, with God all things are possible. He could have created in one moment of time, or in one millenium. He chose to create in six literal 24-hour days in order to give man a pattern for his work and rest. It is UNBELIEF that keeps us from believing this.

 

[Barbarian]

Before we go further, does the use of "the Barbarian" imply that you do not actually believe that he Bible is God's Word?

Good heavens, no. You do know that some of the first Christians were Barbarians, don't you?

I got the name after a discussion with a rather aggressive atheist who told me that I didn't understand how barbaric Christianity was. So I took the name for myself. He wasn't amused.

First, if your are going to quote Augustine, please supply his exact words so that we can see if that is indeed what he is saying, as it that simply your understanding. And even if he says what you claim that he does, Augustine is not necessarily our authority.

It is in "The Literal Meaning of Genesis". I do not have a copy at hand, but here's a brief description:

"An admirable application of this well-ordered liberty appears in his thesis on the simultaneous creation of the universe, and the gradual development of the world under the action of the natural forces which were placed in it. Certainly the instantaneous act of the Creator did not produce an organized universe as we see it now. But, in the beginning, God created all the elements of the world in a confused and nebulous mass (the word is Augustine's Nebulosa species apparet; "De Genesi ad litt.," I, n. 27), and in this mass were the mysterious germs (rationes seminales) of the future beings which were to develop themselves, when favourable circumstances should permit."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02089a.htm

Essentially, Augustine believed that God created the universe in one creative act, but that it unfolded over time. He is aware that living things were created by means of the nature God created in that instant.

He pointed out that the "days" of Genesis were not literal 24 hour days, but rather ways of explaining creation in a way that made sense to men. He points out the absurdity of mornings and evenings before a sun existed.

Second, why is it "ABSURD" to conclude in the context of Genesis chapter 1, that each day of creation is indeed a literal 24-hour day.

See above.

Thirdly, why should we not then go to Exodus and Deuteronomy to confirm that man's work week of six literal 24-hour days was patterned after God's six-day work-week of Creation, and the Sabbath was also pattered after God's sabbath?

Patterning it after a figurative description isn't surprising. Why should it be?

As regards creation, with God all things are possible. He could have created in one moment of time, or in one millenium. He chose to create in six literal 24-hour days in order to give man a pattern for his work and rest. It is UNBELIEF that keeps us from believing this.

Mostly the logical contradictions inherent in a literal reading.

BTW, Augustine also had an opinion on this issue of naive objections to science on religious grounds. From De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim

"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. [1 Timothy 1.7] "

 

[JM]

Augustine is Christian not an inspired writer. It is helpful to read the ECF works, many of them contain jems but they are only human.