The Imperfect versus the Perfect...

[Stormcrow]

{8} Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. {9} For we know in part and we prophesy in part; {10} but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 (NASB)

Verse 10 of this passage raises 2 questions in my mind: can we know what “the perfect” is and can we know when it will come?

I believe the answer is “yes” to both these questions.

The first thing that got me thinking about this is the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-29:

{28} "It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. {29} "Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. Joel 2:28-29 (NASB)

Now, according to Peter, this was fulfilled at Pentecost:

{15} "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; {16} but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: {17} 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS...And they shall prophesy. Acts 2:15-18 (NASB)

So prophesy, dreams and visions are – according to Joel – those things that would happen “in the last days”; days, Peter told his audience by the events they were witnessing, they had now entered!

So what were these “last days? Christ gives us an important clue:

{18} "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matthew 5:18 (NASB)

As I’ve indicated in other posts, “heaven and earth” is a metaphor for the sky and the land of Israel, but is also a metaphor for the Temple, the place where heaven and earth met under the Old Covenant.

Therefore, Christ is saying the Law remains in effect until “heaven and earth” pass away.

Well, this presents a bit of a problem. We know that if the Law (of Moses) remains in effect until the literal heaven and earth pass away, then we are all still under the Law and not grace!

So Matthew 5:18 has to be referring to the passing of a symbolic “heaven and earth”; one that passed away at some point in the past so that the fullness of grace could be ushered in.

Fortunately, the book of Hebrews addresses these issues of the Law versus Grace and the imperfect versus the perfect!

{18} For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness {19} (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. Hebrews 7:18-19 (NASB)

So the Law represents that which is imperfect:

{8} The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, {9} which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, {10} since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation. Hebrews 9:8-10 (NASB)

The “outer tabernacle” is the Temple, representing the “present time” during which the Law was still in effect but the “perfect” had not yet been fully manifested yet:

{11} But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; {12} and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:11-12 (NASB)

The “good things to come” hadn’t come yet because the Law was still in effect for as long as the Temple stood!

I close with this:

{18} For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind... Hebrews 12:18 (NASB)

The writer of Hebrews here is making an important distinction between Mt. Sinai, where the imperfect Law of Moses was given, and Mt. Zion, where grace is given to all who believe in Christ’s perfect sacrifice:

{22} But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, {23} to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, {24} and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

{26} And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN." {27} This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

{28} Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; {29} for our God is a consuming fire. Hebrews 12:22, 26-29 (NASB)

Therefore, the “perfect” is that which cannot be shaken: a kingdom of grace, peace, and righteousness, not "meat and drink."

The “partial” - the Temple and the Law - was replaced by the “perfect” and this all happened in 70AD.

The “last days” of which Joel prophesied and Peter spoke were the last days of the imperfect system which Christ’s sacrifice would ultimately replace with His perfect sacrifice and grace.

The imperfect is gone. Let’s start understanding what it means to live in the perfect.

 

[Beck]

An excellent thread my friend, I should only add one thought and that would be from Ephesians 4:13 KJV "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

 

[Stormcrow]

An excellent thread my friend, I should only add one thought and that would be from Ephesians 4:13 KJV "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

Thank you for dusting this thread off and moving it back to the top shelf.

The verse you cited made me think of another verse in Hebrews that we all know and (I've) usually read like this:

{2} Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2 (KJV)

When I looked at this verse in the NASB, to my surprise it reads like this:

{2} fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2 (NASB)

Original Word: τελειωτής, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: teleiótés
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-i-o-tace')
Short Definition: a perfecter, completer
Definition: a perfecter, completer, finisher.

When read in this light, the intent of other verses becomes clearer:

{28} For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever. Hebrews 7:28 (NASB)

And because Christ is perfect, He is able to make us perfect - sanctified by faith - in the eyes of the Father:

{39} And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, {40} because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect. Hebrews 11:39-40 (NASB)

The Law which could not make perfect was replaced by the One who could!

{24} For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; {25} nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. {26} Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the *consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. Hebrews 9:24-26 (NASB)

In closing, the Law - the Old Covenant - represents the imperfect replaced by Christ's sacrifice - the New Covenant (representing the perfect) - which came "at the end (consummation) of the ages."

*con·sum·ma·tion–noun

1. the act of consummating; completion. 2. the state of being consummated; perfection; fulfillment.

So now when we read:

{17} "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. {18} "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matthew 5:17-18 (NASB)

We can understand that to which Luke was referring when he wrote this:

{20} "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near...{22} because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Luke 21:20, 22 (NASB)

All was accomplished - fulfilled - with the fires that desolated Jerusalem and its temple in 70 AD.

Peace. Out.

 

[felix]

Sorry, your understanding of 'perfection' is wrong.

Matt 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

 

[Stormcrow]

Sorry, your understanding of 'perfection' is wrong.

Matt 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

You tell me I'm wrong about perfection by highlighting the section of one verse that points to works as the way to perfection? :toofunny

Please read the rest of the story:

27 Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?"

28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:27-29 (NASB)

When did Christ take His seat on His "glorious throne"???

{19} ...These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might {20} which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, {21} far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

{22}And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, {23} which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. Ephesians 1:19-23 (NASB)

{1} Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Colossians 3:1 (NASB)

The rich young ruler claimed to have kept every law, but when was told to sell all he had and follow Christ, he went away sad, because he could not part with his riches for the sake of Christ!

It wasn't selling his riches that would have made him perfect! It was the part you didn't highlight: the part where Christ told him to "come and follow me."

Thanks, but I think through the verses I've cited in this thread I've shown I have at least a little grasp of this idea of perfection in Christ.

 

[Beck]

Thank you for dusting this thread off and moving it back to the top shelf.

The verse you cited made me think of another verse in Hebrews that we all know and (I've) usually read like this:

{2} Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2 (KJV)

When I looked at this verse in the NASB, to my surprise it reads like this:

{2} fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2 (NASB)

Original Word: τελειωτής, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: teleiótés
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-i-o-tace')
Short Definition: a perfecter, completer
Definition: a perfecter, completer, finisher.

When read in this light, the intent of other verses becomes clearer:

{28} For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever. Hebrews 7:28 (NASB)

And because Christ is perfect, He is able to make us perfect - sanctified by faith - in the eyes of the Father:

{39} And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, {40} because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect. Hebrews 11:39-40 (NASB)

The Law which could not make perfect was replaced by the One who could!

{24} For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; {25} nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. {26} Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the *consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. Hebrews 9:24-26 (NASB)

In closing, the Law - the Old Covenant - represents the imperfect replaced by Christ's sacrifice - the New Covenant (representing the perfect) - which came "at the end (consummation) of the ages."
So now when we read:

{17} "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. {18} "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matthew 5:17-18 (NASB)

We can understand that to which Luke was referring when he wrote this:

{20} "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near...{22} because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Luke 21:20, 22 (NASB)

All was accomplished - fulfilled - with the fires that desolated Jerusalem and its temple in 70 AD.

Peace. Out.

Well, Brother you're on a roll Yea I do like the NASB version of that verse it's does infact make it clear. Good job keep those verses coming...

 

[Lloyd]

Storm,

I think this is a great post, I just don't agree that all that happened in 70AD. I believe the 'partial' was replaced by the 'perfect' when Christ was resurrected - it was made complete then.

 

[smaller]

Verse 10 of this passage raises 2 questions in my mind: can we know what “the perfect†is and can we know when it will come?

I believe the answer is “yes†to both these questions.

The first thing that got me thinking about this is the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-29:
Now, according to Peter, this was fulfilled at Pentecost:
So prophesy, dreams and visions are – according to Joel – those things that would happen “in the last daysâ€; days, Peter told his audience by the events they were witnessing, they had now entered!

So what were these “last days? Christ gives us an important clue:
As I’ve indicated in other posts, “heaven and earth†is a metaphor for the sky and the land of Israel, but is also a metaphor for the Temple, the place where heaven and earth met under the Old Covenant.

Therefore, Christ is saying the Law remains in effect until “heaven and earth†pass away.

Well, this presents a bit of a problem. We know that if the Law (of Moses) remains in effect until the literal heaven and earth pass away, then we are all still under the Law and not grace!

Gods Words are Eternal and do not 'pass away.' The Law always against 'the lawless' and still is.

Paul taught many things about the Law, this being also true;

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Were that meant only for the mouth of the Jew or those in Israel Paul was a little careless in his broad based terms of 'every mouth' and 'all the world.'

I do not consider Paul to be a careless Apostle.

So Matthew 5:18 has to be referring to the passing of a symbolic “heaven and earthâ€; one that passed away at some point in the past so that the fullness of grace could be ushered in.

Fortunately, the book of Hebrews addresses these issues of the Law versus Grace and the imperfect versus the perfect!
So the Law represents that which is imperfect:
The “outer tabernacle†is the Temple, representing the “present time†during which the Law was still in effect but the “perfect†had not yet been fully manifested yet:
The “good things to come†hadn’t come yet because the Law was still in effect for as long as the Temple stood!

The Law is also spiritual. Spiritual understanding does not carelessly throw away that which is spiritual.

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual

The Law is meant to reveal the fact of the operational presence of sin in ALL. That working did not disappear when some maniacal forces destroyed the temporary temple(s.)

You are welcome to whistle past the graveyard on that scriptural revealed fact if you please.

I close with this:
The writer of Hebrews here is making an important distinction between Mt. Sinai, where the imperfect Law of Moses was given, and Mt. Zion, where grace is given to all who believe in Christ’s perfect sacrifice:
Therefore, the “perfect†is that which cannot be shaken: a kingdom of grace, peace, and righteousness, not "meat and drink."

The “partial†- the Temple and the Law - was replaced by the “perfect†and this all happened in 70AD.

The “last days†of which Joel prophesied and Peter spoke were the last days of the imperfect system which Christ’s sacrifice would ultimately replace with His perfect sacrifice and grace.

The imperfect is gone. Let’s start understanding what it means to live in the perfect.

If your claim is that by ignoring the presence of indwelling sin you became perfect because 'you thought it so' and your 'perfect thoughts' eradicated SIN, I place tongue firmly in cheek as you certainly needed no Saviour, just perfect thoughts.

Anyone is welcome to live under deception of facts and wallowed in delusion.

Heaven and earth will pass away. And no, that was not just a pile of rocks put together by a few thousand Jews awhile back.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Lehigh3]

Storm,

I think this is a great post, I just don't agree that all that happened in 70AD. I believe the 'partial' was replaced by the 'perfect' when Christ was resurrected - it was made complete then.

Yes, Storm this is a great thread. I must have missed it!

But Lloyd, how can Paul write 1Corinthians in about AD52 (well after Christ's resurrection) & say "but when the perfect comes...." ???

The kingdom of grace, peace, light, righteousness is the PERFECT. Well done Storm.

 

[felix]

You tell me I'm wrong about perfection by highlighting the section of one verse that points to works as the way to perfection?

Actually, my mistake... I forgot to highlight the second part as well. The reason I highlighted the 1st part is because that is something people often forget.

As I’ve indicated in other posts, “heaven and earth†is a metaphor for the sky and the land of Israel, but is also a metaphor for the Temple, the place where heaven and earth met under the Old Covenant.

No! It's not like that.. You cannot assume any kind of metaphor unless you have a supporting verse for it. Heaven and Earth can be a metaphor for Throne and Footstool (Isa 66:1, Matt 5:34-35).

Therefore, Christ is saying the Law remains in effect until “heaven and earth†pass away.

Well, this presents a bit of a problem. We know that if the Law (of Moses) remains in effect until the literal heaven and earth pass away, then we are all still under the Law and not grace!

So Matthew 5:18 has to be referring to the passing of a symbolic “heaven and earthâ€; one that passed away at some point in the past so that the fullness of grace could be ushered in.

The law will be in effect until the literal heaven and earth pass away. The point is we are not under the law but by grace (Rom 6:14). But Jesus Christ is born under the law and fulfilled the law (Gal 4:4). Law is still there except we are not under it as Christ fulfilled it (Matt 5:17) and heaven and earth means literal heaven and earth.

The “partial†- the Temple and the Law - was replaced by the “perfect†and this all happened in 70AD.

You completely misunderstood the verse. It is not referring to any event in 70 AD. Scripture does not support that. It is referring to the verse below

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; ... Matt 27:50-51

In Heb 9:8, the word standing in English is not the same in Greek (στάσις - dissension,insurrection,disagreement). I could say the actual translation might be 'standing as a barrier or against something'.

Let me rephrase Heb 9:8,
The Holy Spirit indicating this in OT times, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still in disagreement. When the veil is torn, the the first tabernacle is not in disagreement because, it is no more as it is made one with the Holiest of All with Jesus Christ as High Priest.

The “last days†of which Joel prophesied and Peter spoke were the last days of the imperfect system which Christ’s sacrifice would ultimately replace with His perfect sacrifice and grace.

Please read the prophecy properly in Joel 2:28-31.
Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD is same as Rev 6:12 ... and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

I disagree 2 with your points for the reason stated above.

 

[Stormcrow]

Storm,

I think this is a great post, I just don't agree that all that happened in 70AD. I believe the 'partial' was replaced by the 'perfect' when Christ was resurrected - it was made complete then.

Thank you and thank you.

Interesting that Paul would use the word "partial", isn't it? If all had been fulfilled at Christ's resurrection, why is Paul telling the Corinthians that the perfect is still to come?

And remember, this verse from Hebrews supports that view:

{11} But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; Hebrews 9:11 (NASB)

And this:

{1} For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. Hebrews 10:1 (NASB)

Remember, Christ told His disciples in Matthew 5 that the Law would remain in effect until heaven and earth passed away. This gives us the background needed to understand what happened to Paul in Acts 21:

{17} After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. {18} And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.

{19} After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. {20} And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; {21} and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

{22} "What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.

{23} "Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; {24} take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. Acts 21:17-24 (NASB)

{26} Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them. Acts 21:26 (NASB)

This is instructive of the time in which these people lived. While the Gentiles had no knowledge of the Law - nor were they required to keep it - the Jews had one foot in the Law - in the Old Covenant - and one foot in the New. The Jews could never be free of the Law as long as its greatest symbol stood as a reminder to them that they were obliged to keep "every stroke and smallest letter" of it.

Yet we all know that to keep the whole Law was impossible. No one could be perfected in grace as long as the Law remained in effect, because the Jews were expected to keep it anyway.

They only knew grace "in part" because they were still bound by the Law.

So now when you read Hebrews 9:28, see if it makes more sense in light of the above:

{28} so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:28 (NASB)

His first coming put away sin. His second coming, in judgment upon Jerusalem, put away the Law, thus freeing those Jews who believed in Him from any further obligation to it.

Sheds a whole different light on what His second coming means, doesn't it?

Hope this helps.

 

[Stormcrow]

Paul taught many things about the Law, this being also true;

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

You failed to cite how Paul finished that sentence:

{20} because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20 (NASB)

The Law OF MOSES (which is what we're talking about in this thread) was given to teach the people how - despite their best efforts - they were incapable of actually keeping it. It was only given to Israel and it was only meant to be temporary!

Now look at verse 21:

{21} But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, {22} even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; Romans 3:21-22 (NASB)

You can keep the Law of Moses if you'd like, but why?

The Law is also spiritual. Spiritual understanding does not carelessly throw away that which is spiritual.

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual

The Law is meant to reveal the fact of the operational presence of sin in ALL. That working did not disappear when some maniacal forces destroyed the temporary temple(s.)

You are welcome to whistle past the graveyard on that scriptural revealed fact if you please.

Yes, the Law was spiritual - Paul even called it good - but it was not perfect!

But since you are intent upon keeping the Law (make sure you keep every part of it!) tell me, do you:

1. make burnt offerings?
2. make grain offerings?
3. make peace offerings? (and make all these as prescribed by Law?)
4. make sin offerings?
5. make guilt offerings?
6. eat only clean animals?
7. ritually purify yourself before meals?
8. follow the steps for legally cleansing a leper?
9. avoid entering the holy of holies when the presence of God fills it?

I'm sure I missed more than a few, but you get the point.

If you don't do everything in the Law, why would you presume to tell others it still applies to them? Isn't this the very same hypocrisy for which Jesus chided the chief priests, scribes, and pharisees of His day???

If your claim is that by ignoring the presence of indwelling sin you became perfect because 'you thought it so' and your 'perfect thoughts' eradicated SIN, I place tongue firmly in cheek as you certainly needed no Saviour, just perfect thoughts.

Anyone is welcome to live under deception of facts and wallowed in delusion.

Whatever you were trying to communicate with the above, you failed. Epically. I have no idea what that even means.

Heaven and earth will pass away. And no, that was not just a pile of rocks put together by a few thousand Jews awhile back.

Your second sentence, above, perfectly illustrates your utter lack of understanding regarding the first.

For what it's worth.

 

[Stormcrow]

You cannot assume any kind of metaphor unless you have a supporting verse for it. Heaven and Earth can be a metaphor for Throne and Footstool (Isa 66:1, Matt 5:34-35).

What is His footstool?

{2} Then King David rose to his feet and said, "Listen to me, my brethren and my people; I had intended to build a permanent home for the ark of the covenant of the LORD and for the footstool of our God. So I had made preparations to build it. {3} "But God said to me, 'You shall not build a house for My name because you are a man of war and have shed blood.' 1 Chronicles 28:2-3 (NASB)

The house (Temple) David wanted to build was to be "God's footstool", the place where His spirit could rest on earth.

{5} "Of all my sons (for the LORD has given me many sons), He has chosen my son Solomon to sit on the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel. {6} "He said to me, 'Your son Solomon is the one who shall build My house and My courts; for I have chosen him to be a son to Me, and I will be a father to him. 1 Chronicles 28:5-6 (NASB)

{17} "Now it was in the heart of my father David to build a house for the name of the LORD, the God of Israel. 1 Kings 8:17 (NASB)

{27} "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built! {28} "Yet have regard to the prayer of Your servant and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to listen to the cry and to the prayer which Your servant prays before You today; {29} that Your eyes may be open toward this house night and day, toward the place of which You have said, 'My name shall be there,' to listen to the prayer which Your servant shall pray toward this place. {30}"Listen to the supplication of Your servant and of Your people Israel, when they pray toward this place; hear in heaven Your dwelling place; hear and forgive. 1 Kings 8:27-30 (NASB)

{3} The LORD said to him, "I have heard your prayer and your supplication, which you have made before Me; I have consecrated this house which you have built by putting My name there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually. 1 Kings 9:3 (NASB)

Heaven and earth met in the Temple: God's footstool.

Here's how Jewish-turned-Christian theologian Alfred Eidersheim puts it:

The conception of the Kingdom of God, which to our modern consciousness seems somewhat obscure... is one of the fundamental ideas of the Old Testament. It was the pride of Israel, not merely because Israel believed in the privileges it would confer on themselves but because alone of all nations Israel was capable of believing in the possibility of a covenant between heaven and earth, between God and man, in a welding of Divine purposes with the counsels of earth, and in the fact that, even within the modest boundaries of a small nation, the rule of earthly affairs was not unworthy of God.

To be sure, this also constituted Israel's sorrow and source of suffering in the course of history; the limitation not only of its free political and purely human, but even of its religious development; the appointed bitter criticism of a Reality which ever fell short and ever contradicted the Ideal.

But in this very sorrow and never-ceasing criticism of earthly lamentation and limitation, Israel became the guide and leader in that infinite striving which, by believing in and seeking after the coming Kingdom of God, and by the final real Advent of the Messiah upon earth, would and did join Idea and Reality—the life of God and that of man, heaven and earth.

The one pervading and impelling idea of the Old Testament is the royal design of God on earth.... Almost a thousand years before Christ rises the longing cry after the future Kingdom of God—a kingdom which is to conquer and to win all nations, and to plant in Israel righteousness, knowledge, peace, and blessing—that Kingdom of God in which God, or his Vicegerent, the Messiah, is to be King over the whole earth, and all generations are to come up and worship the Lord of Hosts.'

Prophecy and History: in Relation to the Messiah (The Warburton Lectures for 1880-1884).

{7} Let us go into His dwelling place; Let us worship at His footstool. Psalm 132:7 (NASB)

{13} For the LORD has chosen Zion; He has desired it for His habitation. {14} "This is My resting place forever; Here I will dwell, for I have desired it. Psalm 132:13-14 (NASB)

The phrase "Heaven and earth" is a metaphor for the Temple: the place where God dwelt to rule His kingdom on earth under the Old Covenant.

Will address the rest of your critique later.

 

[felix]

"heaven and earth" is a metaphor for the sky and the land of Israel,

My issue is not really with Temple being the footstool. I do agree Temple can also be referred as God's footstool. My issue really is with 'heaven and earth' compared to sky and land of Israel, for which I was asking scripture reference.

 

[Stormcrow]

My issue is not really with Temple being the footstool. I do agree Temple can also be referred as God's footstool. My issue really is with 'heaven and earth' compared to sky and land of Israel, for which I was asking scripture reference.

{18} ~'If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. {19} ~'I will also break down your pride of power; I will also make your sky like iron and your earth like bronze. {20} ~'Your strength will be spent uselessly, for your land will not yield its produce and the trees of the land will not yield their fruit. Leviticus 26:18-20 (NASB)

The sky and the land are synonymous with heaven and earth; under the Old Covenant the entire land of Israel and the temple were consecrated by God: it was all holy to Him and the Jews.

Leviticus 26 from verse 14 on is the part of the Law about which most people are not aware and yet was the part of the Law that remained unfulfilled at Christ's death and resurrection.

{23} 'And if by these things you are not turned to Me, but act with hostility against Me, {24} then I will act with hostility against you; and I, even I, will strike you seven times for your sins. {25} ~'I will also bring upon you a sword which will execute vengeance for the covenant; and when you gather together into your cities, I will send pestilence among you, so that you shall be delivered into enemy hands.

{26} ~'When I break your staff of bread, ten women will bake your bread in one oven, and they will bring back your bread in rationed amounts, so that you will eat and not be satisfied. {27} 'Yet if in spite of this you do not obey Me, but act with hostility against Me, {28} then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins. {29} ~'Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat. {30} ~'I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you.

{31} ~'I will lay waste your cities as well and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas. {32} ~'I will make the land desolate so that your enemies who settle in it will be appalled over it. {33} ~'You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste. Leviticus 26:23-33 (NASB)

The prophecy contained in these verses has been fulfilled twice during Israel's reign as the kingdom of God: once when Jerusalem was desolated by Babylon and the second time when it was desolated by Rome. It remains desolate of its Temple - the symbol of God's kingdom and presence here on earth under the Old Covenant - to this day.

So again, when Jesus said He came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it, this was the portion of the Law fulfilled when Jerusalem and its temple were desolated the last (and final) time by the Romans:

{20} "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. {21} "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; {22} because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. {23} "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; {24} and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:20-24 (NASB)

The Temple - symbolically referred to as "heaven and earth" in scripture - passed away in the fires of judgment set by the Romans in 70 AD, thus fulfilling every "smallest letter and stroke" of the Law.

There is no one bound by the Law of Moses anymore. That covenant has been completely and irrevocably revoked.

 

[Stormcrow]

Law is still there except we are not under it as Christ fulfilled it (Matt 5:17) and heaven and earth means literal heaven and earth.

Again, if what you write is true, and the "heaven and earth" Jesus refers to in Matthew 5:18 is literal, then the Law still prevails, especially over the Jews. But if that's true, they are not able to keep the Law of Moses at all because God's temple - the symbol of His kingdom here on earth - is gone.

There could only ever be one temple, which is why Christ said He would destroy "this temple" - His body - and raise it in three days and why Paul said we - the church, His body - are now God's temple.

The old had to make way for the new. The "heaven and earth" that passed away, therefore, is symbolic of the Temple and the Old Covenant kingdom it represented.