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The IMPOSSIBLE THREAD ON partial PRETERISM !!

Anto9us

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I'll try to illustrate my point about SEQUENCE and ANTECEDENT of "He" -- then get back to 'does AFTER mean sometime after or right after?"

Okay - this s just an illustration:

JLB said "A"
then reba said "B"
then ezrider said "C"
then he said "D"

so who is the "he" that said "D"?

Nearest antecedent that matches
 

Anto9us

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no doubt Jesus established a NEW COVENANT

but back to Daniel nine -- sacrifice and oblation -- in the literal Jerusalem Temple -- did NOT CEASE
when the veil was rent at the Cross
actions went on at the Temple same as always til it was razed
you can say "but they didn't mean anything after Christ's sacrifice" -- that may well be
but you cannot say that the Temple sacrifices CEASED when the cRoss happened

The Temple was still in use -- Paul one time went to the Temple - shaved his head - and took a vow there
 

reba

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By His Grace He let 'that ' generation fullfill its self
 

ezrider

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I'll try to illustrate my point about SEQUENCE and ANTECEDENT of "He" -- then get back to 'does AFTER mean sometime after or right after?"

Okay - this s just an illustration:

JLB said "A"
then reba said "B"
then ezrider said "C"
then he said "D"

so who is the "he" that said "D"?

Nearest antecedent that matches
Well, in this thread there can only be one D that has not identified them-self. The would be you.... Anto9us, good job, you didn't set yourself as "A".
 

Anto9us

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"confirming" a covenant smacks of one that already existed being given credence to

establishing a brand new covenant is establishing a new covenant from scratch, not confirming an existing one
 

Anto9us

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lol
I guess I know for sure it wasn't ME that confirmed a covenant
 

Anto9us

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By His Grace He let 'that ' generation fullfill its self
I used to think "this generation shall not pass away" could be fudged into meaning "the generation that sees these things (whenever they occur)
but I dropped that

I see THIS GENERATION to be the one Jesus was in
 

ezrider

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no doubt Jesus established a NEW COVENANT
"confirming" a covenant smacks of one that already existed being given credence to

establishing a brand new covenant is establishing a new covenant from scratch, not confirming an existing one

Luke 1:68-75
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel;
for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us
in the house of his servant David;
As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets,
which have been since the world began:
That we should be saved from our enemies,
and from the hand of all that hate us;
To perform the mercy promised to our fathers,
and to remember his holy covenant;
The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies
might serve him without fear,
In holiness and righteousness before him,
all the days of our life.
 

ezrider

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I used to think "this generation shall not pass away" could be fudged into meaning "the generation that sees these things (whenever they occur)
but I dropped that

I see THIS GENERATION to be the one Jesus was in
I am in agreement.
 

Anto9us

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a word about AFTER

Neither the Hebrew word I gave Strong's definitions for above -- nor the Greek word META in the Septuagint
version of that Daniel verse -- connotes something specifically like "IMMEDIATELY AFTER"

but it doesn't have to

another illustration:

I get a job as a sportswriter for a newspaper, I cover a New England Patriot's game and in my write-up I say
"Tom Brady got hurt and left the game after the third quarter"

when in reality, Brady played the first five minutes of the fourth quarter and threw two more touchdown passes before he got hurt --

now THAT is changing the meaning of the word AFTER
 

ezrider

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Perhaps when discussing to 70th week, we should also keep it in context with the purpose for the 70 weeks of years determined.


Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

All of these were accomplished in Christ Jesus. All of these were accomplished within the 70 weeks determined, which includes the 70th week.

If the 70th week was broken off and is yet future, then what part of Dan 9:24 remains to be fulfilled?
 

ezrider

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a word about AFTER

Neither the Hebrew word I gave Strong's definitions for above -- nor the Greek word META in the Septuagint
version of that Daniel verse -- connotes something specifically like "IMMEDIATELY AFTER"

but it doesn't have to

another illustration:

I get a job as a sportswriter for a newspaper, I cover a New England Patriot's game and in my write-up I say
"Tom Brady got hurt and left the game after the third quarter"

when in reality, Brady played the first five minutes of the fourth quarter and threw two more touchdown passes before he got hurt --

now THAT is changing the meaning of the word AFTER
I understand your point. Not even going to entertain it though. But Daniel does say two things about the end of the 69th week that you must also take in context.

Daniel 9:25
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:

Daniel 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.....


If our focus is at the conclusion of the 69th week, then how can you reconcile that 69 weeks shall have been completed before the Messiah the Prince begins his ministry, but then is immediately cut off after the end of the 69th week? When did Jesus have his ministry if it was not in the 70th week? How long was the ministry of the Son of Man called Jesus? Daniel 9:25 leaves little doubt in my mind that the ministry of Jesus Christ, Messiah the Prince begins after the 69 weeks are complete.
 

Anto9us

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These are some verses which - to me - indicate that whereas the PURPOSE of Daniel 9:24 has indeed been implemented by Christ; there remains some parts/aspects yet to be fulfilled in the future


Rev 6:9

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


Rev 6:10

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


Rev 6:11

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.



Col 1:24

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:



as far as "to bring in everlasting righteousness"


Rom 9:31

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.



Rom 11:25

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


Rom 11:26

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
 

Anto9us

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"Daniel 9:25
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:

Daniel 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.....


If our focus is at the conclusion of the 69th week, then how can you reconcile that 69 weeks shall have been completed before the Messiah the Prince begins his ministry,"

I didn't say the 69 weeks are completed BEFORE Messiah begins His ministry - I say they are completed AFTER Christ's ministry concludes at he Cross -- when Messiah is CUT OFF

I think you may be saying that UNTO in 9:25 means UNTIL - no, I see 'unto' like 'in honor of' -- I mean -- there is really no word there for UNTO in Hebrew, I take it that the whole commandment to restore and build Jerusalem is FOR THE MESSIAH, in honor of the Messiah, UNTO His glory

I see NO TIME STATEMENTS in Daniel 9:25-26 concerning the BEGINNING of Messiah's ministry -- only His death (cut off)
 

Anto9us

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Okay -- I now see several different versions/translations -- that have used UNTIL instead of unto -- and some of these literally place the Arrival of Messiah after the first seven shauvim -- which would mean the anointed one is not even Jesus

all of these versions can't be true -- or else we have Messiah arriving seven shauvim after command to restore and rebuild...
 

Anto9us

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ἕως is used in Septuagint for what different English versions have as UNTO or UNTIL

bleary-eyed, it's late, but looking at an Analytical Concordance:

ἕως used OF PLACE is UNTO

ἕως used OF TIME is UNTIL
 

Anto9us

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Various English renderings of Daniel 9:25 --

I have grouped them in four groups -- one using the word UNTO, one using the word UNTIL or TILL, one using the word TO, and one where the ANNOINTED ONE is pictured as coming after only the FIRST SEVEN SHAUVIM

If there is so much disparity in translation of this ONE VERSE, the only thing that is CONFIRMED to me is that I was right not to swallow whole-hog ANY systematic eschatological position -- this is an important verse in Bible prophecy -- and it remains in ambiguity and paradox.


---- UNTO -----

KJV
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


DBY
Know therefore and understand: From the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah, the Prince, are seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks. The street and the moat shall be built again, even in troublous times.


ASV
Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.


---- UNTIL (or TILL) ----

NKJV
“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.


NLT
Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler—the Anointed One—comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the perilous times.


NIV
“Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.


YLT
And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader is seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.


HCSB
Know and understand this:
From the issuing of the decree
to restore and rebuild Jerusalem
until Messiah the Prince
will be seven weeks and 62 weeks.
It will be rebuilt with a plaza and a moat,
but in difficult times.



NASB
“So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.



NET
So know and understand: From the issuing of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until an anointed one, a prince arrives, there will be a period of seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will again be built, with plaza and moat, but in distressful times.


---- TO ----


WEB
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


HNV
Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the mitzvah to restore and to build Yerushalayim to the Messiah the prince, shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troubled times.


LAMSA
Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of the Messiah the king shall be seven times seven weeks, and sixty-two times seven weeks; the people shall return and build Jerusalem, its streets, and its broad ways at the end of the appointed times.



---- ANNOINTED ONE COMES AFTER FIRST SEVEN SHAUVIM ----

RSV
Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.


ESV
Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

------------------------------------------------

How or if any of this relates to Partial Preterism, I'm not sure.
 

ezrider

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How or if any of this relates to Partial Preterism, I'm not sure.
Whether it relates to someones idea of preterism or not really doesn't concern me. But you are the author of this OP, and it was you who suggested in this thread that Daniels 70th week needed to be addressed.

In general, I would say that Prettie arguments/explanations are pretty thorough for Olivet Discourse and book of Revelation, but kinda weak as to 2 Thess 2 and Daniel

But these have to be addressed -- because some explanation has to be given for what in the world happened - and when -- that could be seen in any way as fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week
Are we not discussing Daniel's 70th week as you suggested?
 

Anto9us

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yes -- it has been a most enlightening discussion of Daniel's 70th week

Do you wish to GO ON as if this "Christ in the middle of the week" idea is true?

I mean, I have expressed doubts about a "gap" in the weeks, and have seen a reasonable case for that;
I have expressed doubt that Christ is He who "confirms a covenant" -- and due to the myriad diverse translations of Dan 9:25,
I can see a case for that as well
 

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