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The IMPOSSIBLE THREAD ON partial PRETERISM !!

ezrider

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yes -- it has been a most enlightening discussion of Daniel's 70th week

Do you wish to GO ON as if this "Christ in the middle of the week" idea is true?

I mean, I have expressed doubts about a "gap" in the weeks, and have seen a reasonable case for that;
I have expressed doubt that Christ is He who "confirms a covenant" -- and due to the myriad diverse translations of Dan 9:25,
I can see a case for that as well
By all means, lets continue on....
 

Anto9us

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What if the "He" that is spoken of was Jesus Christ, and the covenant that He confirmed was what is commonly referred to as the "New Covenant"? And that half way through that particular week, that there was a sacrifice made upon a cross, a sacrifice whose blood actually confirmed this covenant?
Yes -- WHAT IF -- we can proceed as if I never questioned that that might not be the case
 

Anto9us

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And if so, I would next want to know "what of the LAST 3 1/2 years of that 70th shauvim -- are THEY still future, and if not, what happened in the 3 1/2 years following the Cross that can be said to be 'the Great Tribulation' "?

The only thing I have seen along those lines is a chart somewhere that had the Cross at mid-week -- and the week going on to the "stoning of Stephen"
 

ezrider

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Yes -- WHAT IF -- we can proceed as if I never questioned that that might not be the case
Absolutely. I was not trying imply anything one way or the other. It's hard to know how some people might receive certain things, so we can only try the best we can to convey our thoughts.
 

Anto9us

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But eventually, I would also like to address two pretty reputable versions of the Bible that seem to indicate the "anointed one/messiah?" came at the end of the first seven 'weeks'

---- ANNOINTED ONE COMES AFTER FIRST SEVEN SHAUVIM ----

RSV
Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.


ESV
Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.
 

Anto9us

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am open in this thread, I have no axe to grind, no "position to defend" as far as representing a comprehensive systematic eschatology
 

ezrider

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And if so, I would next want to know "what of the LAST 3 1/2 years of that 70th shauvim -- are THEY still future, and if not, what happened in the 3 1/2 years following the Cross that can be said to be 'the Great Tribulation' "?

The only thing I have seen along those lines is a chart somewhere that had the Cross at mid-week -- and the week going on to the "stoning of Stephen"
The three and a half years after the cross are recorded in the book of Acts. The gospel of the kingdom and confirmation of the covenant with many continued as the Holy Spirit was poured out. The stoning of Stephen was certainly the culmination of the tribulation at the hands of one Saul of Tarsus. Whether that marked the end of the 70th week, that's up for discussion. I couldn't say with any certainty.
 

Anto9us

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I can accept that -- of course, I have no way of "counting the time" from Cross to stoning of Stephen, but it makes sense so far
 

ezrider

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am open in this thread, I have no axe to grind, no "position to defend" as far as representing a comprehensive systematic eschatology
Nor I. I'm just seeking understanding.
 

ezrider

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But eventually, I would also like to address two pretty reputable versions of the Bible that seem to indicate the "anointed one/messiah?" came at the end of the first seven 'weeks'

---- ANNOINTED ONE COMES AFTER FIRST SEVEN SHAUVIM ----

RSV
Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.


ESV
Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.
To me, I would really have to stretch the imagination to see it that way, but I feel like I would be forcing it. These simply seem to be pronouncing the 62 weeks differently. I am not really up on the history of this period, but I believe some of it was written about in the Apocryphal Books.
 

Anto9us

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yeah, I have been reading Maccabees lately -- not exactly the most spiritually uplifting stuff, but a history of the period

BUt getting back to the "Christ confirmed the covenant" -- I feel I should say that it is NOT a "partial preterist" idea -- I knew a PostTribber that saw things that way, with Stephen's stoning being end of 70th week

People of various eschatologies view things that way, I just personally never took it seriously at all til last night seeing all those different versions and so many said "until Messiah"
 
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ezrider

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yeah, I have been reading Maccabees lately -- not exactly the most spiritually uplifting stuff, but a history of the period

BUt getting back to the "Christ confirmed the covenant" -- I feel I should say that it is NOT a "partial preterist" idea -- I knew a PostTribber that saw things that way, with Stephen's stoning being end of 70th week

People of various eschatologies view things that way, I just personally never took it seriously at all til last night seeing all those different versions and so many said "until Messiah"
Well, maybe you know more about partial preterism than I do. I have never studied it, and I couldn't tell you what doctrines they hold to.
 

Anto9us

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I just posted that in case someone is viewing this thread without posting -- that we are simply now discussing Daniel's 70 weeks -- and not addressing Partial Preterism itself at the moment
 

ezrider

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That Stephen was stoned to death is undeniable as recorded in the Book of Acts. However whether that would mark the end of the 70th week I could not say. What I do believe is that the end of the 70th week had to occur sometime before the events of Acts 10-11 and the Holy Spirit being poured out upon Cornelius and the other Gentile believers.
 

Anto9us

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That would make sense -- as the whole purpose of 70 weeks was for "Daniel's people" -- and beginning with Cornelius us "wild olive branches" began to be grafted in
 

ezrider

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So what more are we looking for from Daniel 9:27? If we accept that the crucifixion of Christ was in the midst of the week, and that the end of the 70th week came prior to Cornelius being given the Holy Spirit, then the only thing that would remain would be the desolation that was determined? Can we say that this desolation occurs after the 70th week?

Dan 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So the question is, what is the consummation?
 

Anto9us

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Maybe the consummation is the end of the 'determined time' of the seventy weeks.

I am not inclined to think it is the 'consummation' of the Old Covenant -- because in Hebrews it says that is "about to be done away"

Is it possible the consummation might be the times of the Gentiles being started?

"Your house is left to you desolate" -- I don't know how that relates
 

Anto9us

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Heb 8:13

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
 

JLB

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So partial preterists jump up and down on 70 ad Temple destruction as the LEAD ITEM in Olivet Discourse,

The events of 70 AD are not mentioned in the Olivet Discourse.


That would be the end of preterism, partial or otherwise.



JLB
 

ezrider

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I am inclined to see the consummation as the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Jesus was crucified in 30AD. 50 days later on the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit was poured out as promised. For the rest of the 70th week, the Spirit was poured out upon those who believed of the tribes of Israel. Afterwards, the Spirit was given poured out and given to the Gentiles as well.

Like Moses, there was a forty year period of wandering in the wilderness before they could enter the promised land. And the forty years was for THIS GENERATION, the consummation being the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

When we are reading Paul's epistles, I think we should keep in mind that these letters themselves were written before 70AD. The Temple still had a hold upon them much like Egypt did do those who left with Moses. The destruction of the Temple in my mind was the consummation.

Something to think about...

Hebrews 9:8
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
 
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