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The Lord shows Abraham the future...

O

Osgiliath

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Originally posted by Eventide,

And it's for one simple reason.. removing the word of God from its own living and powerful, miraculous context... and summarizing the entire matter in either the past, or the here and now.

You keep saying this as if I and some others have been trying to convince you that scripture has no future application. The Truth is, as I have pointed out in every exchange we've had, that the Words of Christ have an IS, Was and IS TO COME character and quality to them because "they are spirit."

Let's be honest; what you are apparently really asking is 'Why can't the Biblical writers be speaking only of the future?' Let's face it; that is what you are REALLY asking. I come to this conclusion because I have said and documented over a dozen times now that God's Word is to be understood as being "IS, Was, and Is To Come," and you continue to ignore this fact.

Let me just come out and say it: The Biblical writers DO speak of things that are future. Things that are future to you however are "treated that way alone, (meaning they are treated as in the future only, with no present application)," because you fail to see the spiritual significance of Christ's Words, and know Him "only after the flesh."

Christ spoke in parables to keep the multitudes from "understanding the mysteries of the kingdom of God." Most believe it is the opposite, but it is not. Jesus spoke in parables because He DID NOT want the people to understand the mysteries of the kingdom!


  • Matthew 13:10 "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
    Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
    Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."

Where are those mysteries to be lived out and experienced? Again, while it is true that there is eschatology, while it is true there is a timetable to God's Work, that timetable is never to be the primary focus of those in Christ. The primary focus for those who are in Christ is always on the "IS" part of Christ. What is past 'was IS' for those who have lived in the past. What is future 'will be IS' for those who will be living at that moment.

That is why Christ emphasizes that He "IS, Was and Is To Come." Christ is all three of those facets of Himself. We must never leave out any one of those parts of who He is. Nevertheless, 'IS' is primary to knowing Christ. So why did Christ not want the multitudes to "understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God?"



Amazingly enough here again is the answer to where the "mysteries of the kingdom of God" are to be understood and lived:

  • Luke 17:20 "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
    Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."


Do you want a "second witness" to what "THE MYSTERY" is that you fail to see? Here you go:

  • Colossians 1:26 "Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
    Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory."


So the parables of Christ, with all of their signs and symbols, just like the book of Revelation, are to be lived and experienced by those who are truly IN CHRIST, who know 'the mystery' - which is CHRIST IN YOU - the KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU - YOU ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD - YOU ARE LIVINGS STONES MAKING UP GOD'S SPIRITUAL TEMPLE.





I believed as you do for the first 20 years of my walk, and I must warn you Eventide; Satan has a dummy antichrist set up, a horrible creature who will never appear. And the Christian Church is busily engaged in wasting their time and ammunition on this dummy. They are telling their naive followers what a terrible creature he will be, all the while ignorant of the fact that the true criminal is in their very midst!

If the adversary can get the people of God to look for some imaginary man of sin yet to appear, some fictitious son of perdition to come, then he has won a victory, because then WE WILL NEVER DISCOVER THE MAN OF SIN and WHERE HE ACTUALLY IS ABIDING.

Do you realize the magnitude of the detrimental and deceiving effect of the notion of antichrist being some world leader yet to arise? While people have their eyes focused on the future, they are not alert to discern his presence now - and that gives him opportunity to do a great deceptive work right in their midst, just as he has with you - and me before you.

That old serpent, called the devil, and Satan is no less cunning and subtle then when he was in the Garden, and if he can keep us peering through unfocused binoculars out in the mists of the future for the events we have been warned about, we will overlook them in our own generation and time, and within our very own lives.

1 John 2:18 "Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."


The Christian Church, for the past 1,900 years, has been literally filled with antichrists. And the present-day crop are busily engaged in pointing the finger of accusation at some fictitious being who is supposed to appear at some indefinite period in the future. That is Satan's trick to keep men's eyes off of the real culprit. Satan is the sole author of the doctrines which keep men looking ahead to some character who will never appear, thus aiding his present-day emissaries to carry on his work without interruption.

  • 2 Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity does already work"

Paul said that the mystery of iniquity "does ALREADY WORK." This statement cannot fit in with something that is to start some two thousand years later!


You've already seen all of the verses concerning WE being the Temple in several threads, so I do not think I need to post them again. But those verses are there because God's purpose from the foundation of the world has been the building a spiritual house, a holy temple, an eternal abiding place in which He can be at home, and in which place He and His creation can meet.

It is a temple made up of living stones. Every stone is a redeemed person and every stone is a person that was laid by the hand of God. Solomon built a magnificent temple of stone and precious materials. He overlaid it with gold and adorned it with silver. It was so awesome, the Queen of Sheba was blown away. But the temple built by Solomon was only a primitive, earthly foreshadow of the living temple which Christ would build by the Spirit - a temple not made with hands.


If you think that this "man of sin/son of perdition" is a supernatural world ruler that will appear on the scene like the whole world thinks, or some man who will come on the scene in the one generation just before the establishing of "God's kingdom of the world," then you do not know or believe that "the kingdom of God is within you;" you do not know or believe that YOU ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD!

The "man of sin/perdition" who is sitting on the throne of God is Me for Me. He is you for you, and he is Adam in each and every man who has, is, or will ever live.
 
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Eventide

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Os,

And you seem to be neglecting the fact that I DO understand the word of God speaking with respect to the things which are.. what you refer to as IS.. ie, right now.. there's limitless revelation with respect to the things which are, right here, right now.. just as there is limitless revelation with respect to the past and to the future..

That doesn't mandate in any way that the things which shall be hereafter pertain to the things which are.. simply because His word can speak within any context.. context is for a simple reason, and in this case it easily proves itself out simply by trying to apply it to what's happening here and now..

It doesn't work.. not even close imo.. I can't imagine how anyone could apply the things which are in the future.. like the Day of the Lord.. into the here and now.. and the Apostle to the Gentiles warns us to NOT be deceived into thinking that THAT DAY has already come..

Isn't that exactly what you're saying Os... that it IS come.. ?

And again imo this is simply because of removing the things which shall be here after... from their biblical context..

Just agree to disagree.. if you'd like to apply these things to the here and now then imo you have the vain burden of fitting all of these things that are not yet.. into the here and now..

I'd say good luck... but it's not going to happen and I bet you see that already to some extent..
 

Eventide

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As I've suggested before... take a stroll down Rev 6, Rev 7, Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13.. or any of these miraculous chapters within the context of the things which shall be hereafter... and explain in detail how that they're applicable to the here and now...

It's vanity...

Just let the word say what it says... that these are the things which shall be hereafter...

After what..?

After the things which are...

What ARE the things which ARE... ?

Christ building His church.. calling people out of this present evil world and delivering them from the lies of Satan, the god of this world.. the prince of the power of the air.. and the rulers of the darkness of this world.. spiritual wickedness IN HIGH PLACES...

These are often described biblically as the fowls of the air.. because Satan is the prince of the power of the air within the context of the things which are... although we're told within the context of the things which shall be hereafter.. that he shall be cast down to the EARTH...

There's a difference between what's happening now and what shall be happening then... a staggering difference to say the least.. when we simply let the word of God say what it says in its own context. THEN we can simply see these things described in these chapters for what they truly are.. the things which shall be hereafter.. in that Day.. the Day of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ.. which shall come as a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.
 

eddif

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I wonder if I have enough sense / intelligence to post on this thread? I did a quick read of the whole thing ( made pretty easy with the edits taking out sections).

We stand at the wall seperating the Jews from the Gentiles and hurl our thoughts over the wall. Instead of breaking down the wall, for two cents we would add another block or two to the wall. In fact since the Gentiles have been involved for so long they really seem to have walls between themselves. Right now we all seem to throw and duck.

I am a jerk from Mississippi and I know it. I have thrown many stones and gotten nowhere at times. My set of traditions are in need of destruction. A priest prays first for his own sins, then for the sins of others.

The first post in this thread was about a covenant. The person involved went to sleep after his initial involvement and God did the rest, and imformed what was done.
Jesus completed the covenant, IMHO, pretty much alone (lack of understanding was everywhere). We are informed what was done by Jesus.
The Church today seems to be full of heresy on every side (some that read my blogs may think that heresy is my middle name).

It sure seems to me that breaking down the wall between us should be a great priority. Not accepting the wrong in our lives, but putting to death a lot of things. We tend to accept the wall instead of trying to get it broken down.

I hope i have not added fuel to the fire. I tend to think that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I am involved through Grace.

eddif
 

Eventide

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I wonder if I have enough sense / intelligence to post on this thread? I did a quick read of the whole thing ( made pretty easy with the edits taking out sections).

We stand at the wall seperating the Jews from the Gentiles and hurl our thoughts over the wall. Instead of breaking down the wall, for two cents we would add another block or two to the wall. In fact since the Gentiles have been involved for so long they really seem to have walls between themselves. Right now we all seem to throw and duck.

I am a jerk from Mississippi and I know it. I have thrown many stones and gotten nowhere at times. My set of traditions are in need of destruction. A priest prays first for his own sins, then for the sins of others.

The first post in this thread was about a covenant. The person involved went to sleep after his initial involvement and God did the rest, and imformed what was done.
Jesus completed the covenant, IMHO, pretty much alone (lack of understanding was everywhere). We are informed what was done by Jesus.
The Church today seems to be full of heresy on every side (some that read my blogs may think that heresy is my middle name).

It sure seems to me that breaking down the wall between us should be a great priority. Not accepting the wrong in our lives, but putting to death a lot of things. We tend to accept the wall instead of trying to get it broken down.

I hope i have not added fuel to the fire. I tend to think that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I am involved through Grace.

eddif
IMO this will always be a difficult topic because of the enormous differences with respect to what people actually believe... simply within the context of the things which are, right here, right now.. as compared to the things which shall he hereafter in that Day.. the Day of the LORD..

Staggering differences to say the least..

Regardless of ANY of that... your thoughts are as welcome as any imo.. so thank for sharing on this wondrous topic of the Lord revealing the future to Abram..
 

Stormcrow

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Isn't the bride of Christ His wife the church?
The story of Revelation boils down to the story of two covenants and two "women" who were "married" to God through these respective covenant relationships.

The "woman" of Revelation 12 who brings forth Christ is Israel, but she rejects Him and becomes the "great harlot" of Revelation 17.

The bride of Christ is His church, built on the foundation of the prophets and the apostles. When Jesus offers the disciples a cup filled with wine, representing His blood of the new covenant, He is repeating a Jewish wedding tradition celebrated for centuries:

In Judaism, the prospective bridegroom pops the question by pouring a cup of wine for his beloved, then anxiously awaits her response to his proposal. If she sips from the Kiddush (sanctification) cup, she shows her willingness to enter this union by saying "yes" to his proposal. Their shared cup of wine at a Jewish betrothal ceremony called Br'it (covenant) symbolizes the sealing of their marriage covenant in blood. The betrothed couple, for all legal purposes, is married.

We see Yeshua drinking from the B'rit cup with His disciples after the Passover dinner, sealing the marriage covenant with His bride. Lifting the cup with His right hand, Yeshua recites the Jewish blessing over the wine. As the True Vine speaks, He blesses the fruit of His Father's vine and praises the Creator for His bride-His choice fruit. He continues saying, "Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Matt. 26:27-28 KJV).

http://www.rebeccaatthewell.org/jewishweddingbetrothalcup.html


See the "cup full of abominations" the great harlot is holding in her hand in Revelation 17? It represents the same cup of betrothal God offered Israel with the coming of Messiah, but they rejected it and - in choosing Caesar over Christ ("We have no king but Caesar") - filled the cup with the abominations of their idolatry.

And this is just one of the many symbols John uses to describe the events he is being shown in heaven.

The latter chapters of Revelation represent a "passing of the betrothal cup" from Israel to His church, wherein the harlot (old covenant Israel) is judged and the bride (new covenant church composed of believing Jews and Gentiles) is introduced. Obviously, this same "marriage" can be seen in the Olivet Discourse of the gospels, too.

So yes, you are absolutely correct in your observation.

:twocents
 

Stormcrow

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Why would that be any kind of 'cause' to disregard His Words stormcrow?
:rolling:rolling:rolling

I'm not the one disregarding His words!!! You are!!!

THEN JESUS SAID TO HIS DISCIPLES!!!

It is perfectly clear by these few, simple words, He was not talking to demons, angels, or people living 2,000 years later as the text continues:

SOME...STANDING HERE...WILL NOT TASTE DEATH UNTIL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN HIS KINGDOM!!!

IN OTHER WORDS, HIS DISCIPLES: THE ONES WHO WERE STANDING RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF HIM!!!

Trying to put a "new age" gnostic, spiritualist spin on these words denies and demeans them! I accept them and believe them as written! Why don't you?!?!?

Here is the full context of the passage being discussed so others can see what the Bible actually says!

Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:24-28 (NASB)

Not one demon or person in a time machine from the future standing there. Not one.
 
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jasoncran

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if one were to take the coming of the lord as a wedding then that has yet to come but we are present BETROTHED to him and will be MARRIED to him at his coming.
 

Stormcrow

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if one were to take the coming of the lord as a wedding then that has yet to come but we are present BETROTHED to him and will be MARRIED to him at his coming.
So the church isn't the bride of Christ yet? Paul would disagree with that point of view:

Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. Ephesians 5:22-32 (NASB)

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. Hebrews 12:22-24 (NASB)

When Jerusalem fell, the way was laid open for Christ's church to grow free from the Jewish persecution it had encountered that began with the stoning of Stephen. There would still be Roman persecutions to come, but Christ's church - His bride brought to earth from heaven - grew to the point of overtaking even the power of Rome and became a holy nation of priests spread in every nation throughout the earth. And it continues to grow to this day. His coming in judgment upon Jerusalem fulfilled every last bit of the old covenant that remained; that according to Luke's gospel.
 
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jasoncran

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ok. i wish the church study orthodox judiasm and the sages and read it from a christian view then they couldnt teach modern futurism. isreal here is a culture and a way of life. if one take that is isreal then one must see the christianity is very much isreali in nature.
 

Stormcrow

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if one take that is isreal then one must see the christianity is very much isreali in nature.
I agree, Jason, which is why I have argued here often that the New Testament cannot be understood through the eyes and experience of 21st century American evangelicalism: it absolutely must be understood through the lives of the men who wrote it and when.

All the writers of the NT (except Luke) were Jews and they were all (including Luke) undergoing persecution for their faith in Christ. If we don't begin with that understanding of the NT, then there is no way in the world to understand it at all!

The NT is an overwhelmingly Jewish book written by men with one foot in grace and the other in the Law. This is the tension that existed, for instance, when Paul wrote these words in Romans 7:14-25:

For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:14-25 (NASB)

Paul had one foot in grace, the other in the Law. When the Law was finally, ultimately, and eternally revoked (70 AD), grace became the only "coin" of God's realm. Grace is all by which any of us lay claim to our life in Christ now: not what we can do to earn His favor by keeping the Law, but by what He has done for us in and through Christ.
 

smaller

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:rolling:rolling:rolling

I'm not the one disregarding His words!!! You are!!!

THEN JESUS SAID TO HIS DISCIPLES!!!

It is perfectly clear by these few, simple words, He was not talking to demons, angels, or people living 2,000 years later as the text continues:
Not one Word of God is discounted on the basis of 'whom' it was spoken to.

Jesus stated this about His Word:

Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

He also said this about where HIS WORD is sown and what happens:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Do you still see ONLY MAN in that equation?

We do not need to put on our 70 a.d. history glasses to understand that matter.

Jesus did address spiritual entities IN MAN. Nay says you? Satan as a serpent was in the Garden. Satan was in play with Jesus Himself and was addressed by Jesus directly in the wilderness, addressed in Peter, addressed in Judas.

Jesus addressed the 'captivity' of 'men' and their CAPTORS as matters 'internal.'

The CAPTIVITY of the people of Israel had little to do with the ROMANS. Jesus spoke to Israelites in Roman captivity. Was that their 'real' problem?

You can spin your own imaginations from there, but these 'matters' remain in play to this day:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

s
 

Stormcrow

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Not one Word of God is discounted on the basis of 'whom' it was spoken to.
No one is discounting the word of God here but you and you do it very time you take things completely out of context, precisely as you have with this passage.

The bible cannot mean anything if you can change such clear, simple language into anything you want it to mean!!!

I'm not interested in engaging your post-modern Gnosticism anymore. Trying to argue the truth of God' Word with you is like mud-wrestling Jello: little more than a frustrating waste of time.
 

smaller

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No one is discounting the word of God here but you and you do it very time you take things completely out of context, precisely as you have with this passage.
There is no 'context of elimination' in this fact stormcrow:

Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

How many of Gods Words or The Words of His Christ do YOU seek to eliminate in the context of 70 a.d. history?

I would reckon just about all of it on the basis of 'whom' it was spoken to.

The bible cannot mean anything if you can change such clear, simple language into anything you want it to mean!!!
All of Gods Words are meant for the LIFE of MAN.

There is no way to eliminate that on the basis of context.

I'm not interested in engaging your post-modern Gnosticism anymore. Trying to argue the truth of God' Word with you is like mud-wrestling Jello: little more than a frustrating waste of time.
You can spin the facts of simple statements anyway you please. It remains that your intentions are ELIMINATIONS of Gods Words. That much is clear isn't it?

Matthew 7:24
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Luke 6:47
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

Many continue seeking to this day to KILL THE WORD.

It's a rather futile effort.

s
 

reba

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Did the Lord show Abraham anything that came to pass in Abraham's life time or was everything future?

Did the Lord tell/show Peter future? Future in what time frame or age?

Future is a vague word.... Today is yesterdays future. Today will be tomorrows past.

The inspiring Book of Hebrews comes to mind :)
 

Stormcrow

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How many of Gods Words or The Words of His Christ do YOU seek to eliminate in the context of 70 a.d. history?
Not a single one. Futurism, however, distorts and demeans the word of Christ thus defaming Him and denying the gospel.
 
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smaller

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Not a single one. Futurism, however, distorts and demeans the word of Christ thus defaming Him and denying the gospel.

.
I would certainly agree that many forms of futurism are nonsense. That does not mean your intended construct is 'thee' only sight available either.

Few here would disagree that Jesus foretold that the temple physical brick/mortar would be destroyed.

But substantially fewer would see 'our own conditions' presently as a similar state of affairs.

s
 
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loopy

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i agree jason. after all i have been learning about the connection of the life of Christ being foreshadowed, prophesied in jewish festivals and customs, i cannot believe it isn't taught. after being in israel, i think it is crucial to my understanding God and the new testament! i also think if we did this, some of the debated issues would make sense, because we would stop reading or culture into the new testament, and we would understand its context.
 

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