The Pre Tribulation Rapture: Fact or Fiction?

[jasoncran]

I know a man who was waterboarded in s.e.r.e. that wouldn't do much to make him renounce the Lord. He is a believer.

 

[YosefHayim]

Yosef: Who is the lady?

She is the Google result of "wink gif."

 

[Grappler]

Millions of dollars are spent telling Christians that they will be caught up before the tribulation, but what does the bible tell us?
Let me start this by stating I believe that we will be caught up with Yahshua in clouds, but a pre-tribulation rapture is not scripturally sound. Is this a trick motivated by money by the true deceiver? Did he master mind a plan to weaken believers afraid to be forged by fire? Thousands of our brothers and sisters outside of America are being persecuted and murdered for their faith. I ask you with a humble heart, where lay their rapture?
Matthew 24:23-24. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
I will step back and listen after posting a brief summary of the rapture.
•The event happens at THE LAST TRUMP (end of tribulation).
•The beast wears out the saints (How is this possible if we've been "raptured"?)
•The beast shall overcome the saints for a season (Again, how is this possible?)
•The dead in Christ rise first (this happens at the last trump - end of tribulation).

The pre-tribulation escape theory is an unbiblical lie that has and is deceiving many well-meaning Christians. If they would stop listening to some of these televangelists and these so called prophecy "experts" with their PHds from some of these Zionists seminaries and focus on only the scripture they would see that the bible teaches nothing of the sort.

 

[Eugene]

The pre-tribulation escape theory is an unbiblical lie that has and is deceiving many well-meaning Christians. If they would stop listening to some of these televangelists and these so called prophecy "experts" with their PHds from some of these Zionists seminaries and focus on only the scripture they would see that the bible teaches nothing of the sort.

Hi Grappler, it's just a shame as a well meaning Christian you are deceived, but I'm willing to help you without the aid of televangelists.

 

[SlickPen50]

Grappler, I totally agree with your statement, which Eugene disses. Rapture has NO historical continuum from the early church. And as you mention, it arose during a Zionist manipulated period... Before Darby and Scoffield, you cannot find any school of thought which includes this ideal. Dispensationalist must use derision and slams to divert the subject from its trajectory in discusion.

What's the worst thing if you and I are right?

But what is the worst thing if the Rapturist are wrong?

I would rather be pleasantly surprised at our wrongness on this point. But I would never want to be wrong having depended on their ideal only to be dashed...

 

[jasoncran]

deceived? so just because I don't see modern, secular isreal as in prophecy? really we say God bless isreal and yet what do they do? abortion and have socialized medicine? and gay civil unions and moving to full marriage? yet these same guys who push this support say America better repent? hmm

I support isreal's right to exist because im Jewish not because of any clear bible prophecy. if someone can show me in context where in Ezekiel the ransom is paid to the temple priest in an offering when they repented I will then be all ears. I see no record of jewish mass repentance. that book mentions a return to the law.

 

[Grappler]

Grappler, I totally agree with your statement, which Eugene diss. Rapture has NO historical continuum from the early church. And as you mention, it arose during a Zionist manipulated period... Before Darby and Scoffield, you cannot find any school of thought which includes this ideal. Dispensationalist must use derision and slams to divert the subject from its trajectory in discusion.

What's the worst thing if you and I are right?

But what is the worst thing if the Rapturist are wrong?

I would rather be pleasantly surprised at our wrongness on this point. But I would never want to be wrong having depended on their ideal only to be dashed...

Yeah...poor Eugene...he is just another casualty of this false teaching. You are right it is just a part of a greater deception called Zionism along with it's sister false teaching called Dispensationalism. There is no IF we are right but it is more like IF scripture is right then these pre-tribbers are going to be devastated. But they will have people like you and me that will be there to comfort them and tell them that their belief in this escape was just a lie from the beginning.

 

[farouk]

Yeah...poor Eugene...he is just another casualty of this false teaching. You are right it is just a part of a greater deception called Zionism along with it's sister false teaching called Dispensationalism. There is no IF we are right but it is more like IF scripture is right then these pre-tribbers are going to be devastated. But they will have people like you and me that will be there to comfort them and tell them that their belief in this escape was just a lie from the beginning.

G:

Whatever other interpretations people might want to put on them, pointing out a straightforward distinction between the tribulations in John 16.33 and Matthew 24.21 in a literal way, cannot just be dismissed as a 'lie' and 'false teaching'.

We can put our different views respectfully, but please moderate your language.

 

[Eugene]

Hey Grappler, I am a dispensationalist. Zionist? I'm not sure of the full implications of the phrase other than I believe Romans 11:26 "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob," and I do not go with replacement theology if you're familiar with the term.

I am not Preterist and look to future unfulfilled revelations as pertinent to all believers. There will be some of the Church in the first part of the tribulation also known as the "Hour of temptation (Rev 3:10)," and even then they are caught up to heaven as per Revelation 7:9. "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands." How do they get there?

("If scripture is right"?) and therein lies your problem; you can bet on it being correct. As a vision viewpoint, where does the scripture from Revelation 4:1 forward represent? Is not John shown things hereafter, and those things at that moment are in heaven just prior to the tribulation?

Thanks.

 

[SlickPen50]

Edward, unfortunately, The "Latin version" is a translation, not a copy of inspired text... Origen didn't teach rapture, Augustine, and even heretic didn't teach rapture...

I am more sporting than my compadre, Grappler. This is no smack against him, but to say that I could be wrong, which is more than you seem willing to admit possible. You've got your precious theology to protect... I don't. My question still stands. Which would you rather be wrong about, your view or an: it-doesn't-matter view where we are trusting in Jesus rather than theology?

You put your trust in a belief in a belief. And if it proves false, which it could, then you and all those like you are put in a horrific position. Where as if I am wrong, well, I will get of to that other place sooner than expected.

There are so many other texts, and words that church should be paying attention to other than a couple translation anomalies that allow for the hope of "rapture." Why not concentrate on the majors, rather than majoring on minors...

 

[SlickPen50]

Grappler, I am not a preterist, amillennialist, post-millennialist or obviously a pre-tribber... If God judged Israel and tested people throughout history, why wouldn't He do so in the final hour? If God doesn't purify "the church" of the west He will have to apologize to many for unfair treatment or provide those who went through horrific tribulations a more rewarded place in heaven.

The recalcitrants of people to consider anything other than what they always believed, or were taught closing their minds; shows fear, arrogance and a bunch of other things God is not happy with. To say one has to believe something that isn't totally clear in the NT, while avoiding tons of other things which are irrefutably unmissable in the NT, is to miss the forest for the trees.... Jesus wasn't a pre-trib rapturist, therefore we ought not be.

 

[Grappler]

Hey Grappler, I am a dispensationalist. Zionist? I'm not sure of the full implications of the phrase other than I believe Romans 11:26 "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob," and I do not go with replacement theology if you're familiar with the term.

I am not Preterist and look to future unfulfilled revelations as pertinent to all believers. There will be some of the Church in the first part of the tribulation also known as the "Hour of temptation (Rev 3:10)," and even then they are caught up to heaven as per Revelation 7:9. "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands." How do they get there?

("If scripture is right"?) and therein lies your problem; you can bet on it being correct. As a vision viewpoint, where does the scripture from Revelation 4:1 forward represent? Is not John shown things hereafter, and those things at that moment are in heaven just prior to the tribulation?

Thanks.

Actually it is no problem at all...i know it is correct and i know that no where can you show me in scripture that there is some kind of pre-tribulation escape. Lol that is something that always amused me about people who believe in this pre-trib. escape.....they somehow take Revelation 4:1 and say that it means the "church". No where does it say "church"...John was told to come up hither...to somehow turn that into meaning the "church" is rather silly and grasping at straws.

 

[Grappler]

Grappler, I am not a preterist, amillennialist, post-millennialist or obviously a pre-tribber... If God judged Israel and tested people throughout history, why wouldn't He do so in the final hour? If God doesn't purify "the church" of the west He will have to apologize to many for unfair treatment or provide those who went through horrific tribulations a more rewarded place in heaven.

The recalcitrants of people to consider anything other than what they always believed, or were taught closing their minds; shows fear, arrogance and a bunch of other things God is not happy with. To say one has to believe something that isn't totally clear in the NT, while avoiding tons of other things which are irrefutably unmissable in the NT, is to miss the forest for the trees.... Jesus wasn't a pre-trib rapturist, therefore we ought not be.

I think you missed my point...i am not a pre-trib rapturist either.

 

[Grappler]

G:

Whatever other interpretations people might want to put on them, pointing out a straightforward distinction between the tribulations in John 16.33 and Matthew 24.21 in a literal way, cannot just be dismissed as a 'lie' and 'false teaching'.

We can put our different views respectfully, but please moderate your language.

Ok i am sorry if using the word lie or false teaching offends you...i will try to do better. If something is not true then what would you suggest i call it?

 

[Agape]

If something is not true then what would you suggest i call it?

If you believe pre-trib is wrong, prove it with biblical arguments, not by making subjective and negative statements against what you think is not true. (2 Tim 2:23-26)

 

[Grappler]

Oh thats easy lets start with the words of our Lord and Saviour...In Matthew 24 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now notice the words "gathering" and "elect". The word gathering is the "rapture" that you speak of which by the way the word rapture is not even in scripture. The word elect simply means chosen. The chosen are you and i ...the "church". Now notice when these two words occur....yes AFTER the tribulation of those days. You will find this in Mark 13 as well. Pretty simple huh?

 

[Eugene]

No where does it say "church"...John was told to come up hither...to somehow turn that into meaning the "church" is rather silly and grasping at straws.

I do not think I said John told "To come up here" in Revelation 4:1 represented the rapture.

Next unless I'm misunderstanding you, to me the revelation given John by Jesus' angel is for the Church, and sent to pastors of different locations.

Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants . . "

Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia . . "

Revelation Chapters Two and Three show the judgment of the Church, an ongoing process, and the word "Church" is mentioned seven times. John in fact is being shown things commendable and things needing correction from the time frame of the Lord's Day.

 

[Grappler]

I do not think I said John told "To come up here" in Revelation 4:1 represented the rapture.

Next unless I'm misunderstanding you, to me the revelation given John by Jesus' angel is for the Church, and sent to pastors of different locations.

Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants . . "

Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia . . "

Revelation Chapters Two and Three show the judgment of the Church, an ongoing process, and the word "Church" is mentioned seven times. John in fact is being shown things commendable and things needing correction from the time frame of the Lord's Day.

Ok maybe i am missing your point...i don't see anything about a pre-tribulation escape in these verses.

 

[SlickPen50]

Grappler, I didn't take you are as a Pre-trib Rapturist... Edited

Your doing great!

 

[farouk]

G:

John 16.33 clearly refers to the tribulation principle.

Matthew 24.21 clearly refers to a unique specific event.

Matthew's Gospel has a strong Jewish background.

None of these statements is controversial in my view.

Therefore I am not going to get into intolerant language. I don't want any personal issues. I think I have said what I honestly believe from the Scriptures.