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The Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

Atonement

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What is your basis for believing in a pre-trib rapture, if not from the scriptures.


This verse here teaches us that the Rapture will coincide with the Resurrection, whereby both those who are Resurrected from the dead, and those who are Raptured will be caught up together, to be with the Lord in the air.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


This will occur at His coming.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


The lawless one, the man of sin, the false christ, aka; the antichrist will be destroyed at His coming.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8



JLB
Simple answer:

I interpret Scriptures different then you!!
 

JLB

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Simple answer:

I interpret Scriptures different then you!!
What is it that you interpret differently in this verse?

...we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


This verse here teaches us that the Rapture will coincide with the Resurrection, whereby both those who are Resurrected from the dead, and those who are Raptured will be caught up together, to be with the Lord in the air.


How do you see, or interpret this.



JLB
 

Atonement

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Yup, we are caught up when He returns. That's all you need to know from me!

You keep quoting me and trying to tangle me in with your debate, but it won't happen JLB..

It's probably best that you stop quoting me, cause you will get nowhere.
 

JLB

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Yup, we are caught up when He returns. That's all you need to know from me!
Yes, I agree, we, as in all of the body of Christ will be caught up when He returns, both the the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain, will be caught up together, at His coming.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17



No one will be left behind !


Amen.



JLB
 

Atonement

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Yes, I agree, we, as in all of the body of Christ will be caught up when He returns, both the the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain, will be caught up together, at His coming.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17



No one will be left behind !


Amen.




JLB

This I can agree with, as long as that person is in Christ Jesus
 

Willie T

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It appears I'm not able to "like" posts anymore. So, I will send likes to all of you here.
 

reba

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This forum does not have alike button ... so.............
 

Anto9us

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Is there any biblical precedent for the "gap" theory of 2000 years in between 69th and 70th week of Daniel?

I am not comfortable with the idea of
"well, the PROPHETIC CLOCK STOPPED and will start again either after a pretrib rapture or upon the appearance of Beast/Antichrist..."

two times I know of -- it was prophesied a certain number of years would pass,
1. the Jews would be in Egypt so many years, then escape --
2. Jeremiah predicted 70 years for the Jews being in exile in Babylon, then allowed to return

in these blocks of time -- the years RAN SEQUENTIALLY, from start to finish...

what justification is there for Daniel's "70 shauvim" to be any different ? -- a special case where
"oh, but THIS TIME, there is a STOPPING -- 2000 plus years -- then a STARTING AGAIN to have the final 'week' of seven years"

Pretribbers, I guess midtribbers, and some posttribbers believe in this GAP; this STOPPING and resuming again later at some point of Daniel's 70 weeks

but I am uneasy with this "Timeout! King's X!! Clock stops and will resume later!!" type of thought

I lean towards 70th week being future, but am still uncomfortable with the GAP
OTOH, I cannot see any explanation -- no matter how figurative or metaphorical, that the 70th week has occurred
 

JLB

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Is there any biblical precedent for the "gap" theory of 2000 years in between 69th and 70th week of Daniel?
Consider the distinct language of the prophecy, and the three different time stamps that are described.

  • 7 Weeks
  • 62 Weeks
  • 1 Week

“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:24-27


Then there is the principle of how the different time periods start and stop.



JLB
 

ezrider

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I lean towards 70th week being future, but am still uncomfortable with the GAP
OTOH, I cannot see any explanation -- no matter how figurative or metaphorical, that the 70th week has occurred

I would like to discuss this further, but it really doesn't apply to a discussion on the rapture. If you don't mind. I am going to respond to your comment in the IMPOSSIBLE thread you created in the Preterism forum.
 

Anto9us

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OK ezrider -- I will just say here that JLB's emphasis on three distinct periods helps

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

end of 69th week

And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

above happens after 69th week, but before 70th week - so i guess there is evidence of a gap


27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:24-27
 

ezra

 
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it really does not matter if he returns pre mid trib or after trib . fact is he is coming back question is are we watching are we really ready fir his return ?
 

Atonement

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it really does not matter if he returns pre mid trib or after trib . fact is he is coming back question is are we watching are we really ready fir his return ?
Exactly:agreed .... Amen :amen
 

dirtfarmer

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it really does not matter if he returns pre mid trib or after trib . fact is he is coming back question is are we watching are we really ready fir his return ?
hello ezra, dirtfarmer here

It does make a difference, It is pretribulation. The bride of Christ is taken to heaven and there is the marriage of the Bridegroom and the bride. The marriage supper which last for seven years in heaven, all the while the tribulation is happening on earth. It is then, after the tribulation, that the promise to Israel of an earthly kingdom is fulfilled and Christ reigns and we, the body of believers, the bride , will rule and reign with him over the earthly kingdom.
 

ezra

 
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hello ezra, dirtfarmer here

It does make a difference, It is pretribulation. The bride of Christ is taken to heaven and there is the marriage of the Bridegroom and the bride. The marriage supper which last for seven years in heaven, all the while the tribulation is happening on earth. It is then, after the tribulation, that the promise to Israel of an earthly kingdom is fulfilled and Christ reigns and we, the body of believers, the bride , will rule and reign with him over the earthly kingdom.
Titus 2:12-14King James Version (KJV)
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Revelation 22
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book..


i have no idea when he is coming back scripture teaches no man knows hour or day . Christ did say be ready like the 5 wise virgins.

if the Church was really looking for his return there would be less fussing over doctrine and more on unity of the Body .

you have your scriptures others has there . it makes no difference the only thing that matters is we are ready ..
 

Nathan

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Titus 2:12-14King James Version (KJV)
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Revelation 22
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book..


i have no idea when he is coming back scripture teaches no man knows hour or day . Christ did say be ready like the 5 wise virgins.

if the Church was really looking for his return there would be less fussing over doctrine and more on unity of the Body .

you have your scriptures others has there . it makes no difference the only thing that matters is we are ready ..
It does make a difference actually. To what extent, I don't know. But if it did not matter, the when the disciples ask Jesus, and when some in the church were being taught different things, then Jesus and Paul would have just said "don't worry about it, just know I(He) am coming again".

Rather, Jesus and Paul took the time to talk about it. If it was important for them to let people know I feel it's important enough to learn.
 

ezra

 
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see jesus never said i am coming pretrib mid trib or after the trib.. he said watch and pray no man knows the hour or day be ready
 

Elisha

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And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

above happens after 69th week, but before 70th week - so i guess there is evidence of a gap
(emphases mine)

If there is a gap, the evidence should more explicit than trying to infer a gap by stretching out events after the end of a week into a gap before the following week. I believe it contradicts the purpose of a prophetic time line to insert a gap. Also, it make no sense for the city to be destroyed before the covenant is made.

Consider this alternative view:

The events quoted above, in v26, don't happen until after the 70th week. That verse just means after the 69th week those events are determined to happen, but they don't actually happen yet. Jump to the end of the passage, v27, after the 70 weeks, we are told this is when the desolation spoken of actually happens.

v27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

It's Jesus who makes the covenant, and it's Jesus who ends sacrifice. The middle of the 70th week is the crucifixion. In this alternative view, there are no gaps in the time line. (But, there is a gap after the 70 weeks until the determined destruction of the city).
 

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